Do tracks own their design layout or unique obstacles?

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8/3/2020 8:17 PM

This is not based on anything, so don't read too much into it. I was wondering if motocross tracks own their design layout and/or any unique obstacles? Has anyone heard of anyone suing for copying their layout or obstacles?

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8/3/2020 8:22 PM

No, For example the F1 track here in Austin took a corner or say “section” from a bunch of tracks and made 1 track out of connecting it all together.

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8/3/2020 8:24 PM

Do they physically own it? Sure. Do the own the design/layout as intellectual property? Nah I don't think so i've never heard of a track owned filing a parent or copyright on a design or obsticle. Even if they did it probably wouldn't be granted - too common not proprietary.

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8/4/2020 4:41 AM

It's an interesting thought. You can certainly own a design. But a couple of things make it not worth it. One, you have to prosecute it and actively defend it. Two, the competition doesnt have to change the design much in order to get around it. Most tracks cant capture the return on defending it.

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8/4/2020 7:34 AM

Glen Helen uses a NASCAR track for their banked first turn out of respect for Taladega but we don’t own it. The names we use are there to represent a person or place out of respect.

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8/4/2020 8:28 AM

Mr. Info wrote:

Glen Helen uses a NASCAR track for their banked first turn out of respect for Taladega but we don’t own it. The names we use are there to represent a person or place out of respect.

And Red Bud has the Monza Curve....

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8/4/2020 9:05 AM

I have a patent pending on QUAD jumps

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8/4/2020 9:34 AM

disbanded wrote:

I have a patent pending on QUAD jumps

Is this why Stew really retired?

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8/4/2020 10:00 AM

disbanded wrote:

I have a patent pending on QUAD jumps

Is said quad four individual singles or you got tabletops involved? asking for a friend...

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8/4/2020 10:19 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/4/2020 10:40 AM

I was thinking about this before as well. If I wanted to print and sell a T Shirt of, for example, the Glen Helen layout and have it say Glen Helen underneath it, is that legal? No logos or anything but I wasn’t sure if the track layout is protected under a copyright law or something.

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8/4/2020 11:14 AM

cbarber wrote:

Is said quad four individual singles or you got tabletops involved? asking for a friend...

2 tables equals quad in my book 😛😛

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8/4/2020 11:15 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/4/2020 11:16 AM

kkawboy14 wrote:

No, For example the F1 track here in Austin took a corner or say “section” from a bunch of tracks and made 1 track out of connecting it all together.

Ugh. Yeah, and that track (COTA) is pretty awful to ride as a result. It's a disjointed mess. Just as you start to flow in one section... it clashes with the next. Don't get me started on the whole infield full of slow, stupid, boring corners.

Hermann Tilke should never be allowed to design another circuit. He keeps designing these awful F1 tracks which are designed to 'stop and go' the cars because F1 'only passes on the brakes'.

I remember when one of my buddies (multi time US #1) rode COTA for the first time and I was all excited to hear his opinion. He was like 'meh' and I just couldn't believe it... until I rode it... (pic below at a tire test on a stock 600RR press bike)

What a damn shame.

Photo

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8/4/2020 11:20 AM

Alex.434 wrote:

Ugh. Yeah, and that track (COTA) is pretty awful to ride as a result. It's a disjointed mess. Just as you start to flow in one section... it clashes with the next. Don't get me started on the whole infield full of slow, stupid, boring corners.

Hermann Tilke should never be allowed to design another circuit. He keeps designing these awful F1 tracks which are designed to 'stop and go' the cars because F1 'only passes on the brakes'.

I remember when one of my buddies (multi time US #1) rode COTA for the first time and I was all excited to hear his opinion. He was like 'meh' and I just couldn't believe it... until I rode it... (pic below at a tire test on a stock 600RR press bike)

What a damn shame.

Photo

How about that ridiculous turn 1?

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8/4/2020 12:08 PM

As far as names, 4 Peaks, 10 Commandments, Elevator, Quadzilla and maybe a couple of others that I've heard from multiply different tracks.

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8/4/2020 12:39 PM

Mike Larocco gets a nickel anytime someone mentions the leap

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8/4/2020 1:32 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/4/2020 1:35 PM

You can trademark the name of a track feature. The F1 track Spa-Francorchamps has trademarked numerous named track features like "Eau Rouge."

You can't prevent someone from making a paved corner exactly like Eau Rouge but you can prevent someone from using the name "Eau Rouge" in a manner that might conflict with said trademark.

The owners of RedBud could probably trademark the name "LaRocco's Leap" but doubt they have any financial interest to do so. They can't trademark or "patent" two large mounds of dirt separated by a distance of 120', however.

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8/4/2020 1:41 PM

Jeremy Macbeth wrote:

You can trademark the name of a track feature. The F1 track Spa-Francorchamps has trademarked numerous named track features like "Eau Rouge."

You can't prevent someone from making a paved corner exactly like Eau Rouge but you can prevent someone from using the name "Eau Rouge" in a manner that might conflict with said trademark.

The owners of RedBud could probably trademark the name "LaRocco's Leap" but doubt they have any financial interest to do so. They can't trademark or "patent" two large mounds of dirt separated by a distance of 120', however.

Ooop now you owe him a nickle!

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8/4/2020 3:06 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/4/2020 3:06 PM

Jbulz wrote:

Mike Larocco gets a nickel anytime someone mentions the leap

Jeff Emig’s piggybank is safe!

“Parking lot jump”

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8/4/2020 3:23 PM

aeffertz wrote:

I was thinking about this before as well. If I wanted to print and sell a T Shirt of, for example, the Glen Helen layout and have it say Glen Helen underneath it, is that legal? No logos or anything but I wasn’t sure if the track layout is protected under a copyright law or something.

Likely not registered but technically you still need their approval to print that shirt as they could easily claim the rights and go after you however there is no money in a handful of shirts so you could print yours and get away.

You could also print massive amounts and they maybe don't care but if at some point they do you'll need a lawyer and so forth

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8/5/2020 8:32 PM

aeffertz wrote:

I was thinking about this before as well. If I wanted to print and sell a T Shirt of, for example, the Glen Helen layout and have it say Glen Helen underneath it, is that legal? No logos or anything but I wasn’t sure if the track layout is protected under a copyright law or something.

RalphS wrote:

Likely not registered but technically you still need their approval to print that shirt as they could easily claim the rights and go after you however there is no money in a handful of shirts so you could print yours and get away.

You could also print massive amounts and they maybe don't care but if at some point they do you'll need a lawyer and so forth

Well that goes back to the original question. Do the tracks own the layout design or not? Why would I have to ask for permission if they didn't? I don't know if you're guessing or not but that was kinda what I assumed... Could I sell this on a poster or t-shirt? Or is this a protected design?

Photo

I have a few cool ideas around this premise, not quite that basic but like I said I don't want to get sued over a couple hundred bucks if the track layouts are a protected thing.

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8/5/2020 8:44 PM

disbanded wrote:

I have a patent pending on QUAD jumps

cbarber wrote:

Is said quad four individual singles or you got tabletops involved? asking for a friend...

Anyone one who crashes on your patented quad can sue you for faulty design 😂

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8/5/2020 10:31 PM

aeffertz wrote:

Well that goes back to the original question. Do the tracks own the layout design or not? Why would I have to ask for permission if they didn't? I don't know if you're guessing or not but that was kinda what I assumed... Could I sell this on a poster or t-shirt? Or is this a protected design?

Photo

I have a few cool ideas around this premise, not quite that basic but like I said I don't want to get sued over a couple hundred bucks if the track layouts are a protected thing.

Melted microscope.

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8/6/2020 4:52 AM

disbanded wrote:

I have a patent pending on QUAD jumps

Do your claims include or exclude table tops in counting toward the 4 mounds required to be a Quad?

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8/6/2020 9:02 AM

disbanded wrote:

I have a patent pending on QUAD jumps

kage173 wrote:

Do your claims include or exclude table tops in counting toward the 4 mounds required to be a Quad?

If Ralph Shaheen says it's a QUAD then someone owes me money!

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8/6/2020 12:33 PM

I'm pretty sure back when ironman was added MX sports did not like how they built it and wasn't to their spec.... that's just the local rumor I got told, no clue if it is true or not.

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2009 RMZ 250 (sold)
2004 LTZ 400
#nukethequads

8/6/2020 12:38 PM

aeffertz wrote:

I was thinking about this before as well. If I wanted to print and sell a T Shirt of, for example, the Glen Helen layout and have it say Glen Helen underneath it, is that legal? No logos or anything but I wasn’t sure if the track layout is protected under a copyright law or something.

RalphS wrote:

Likely not registered but technically you still need their approval to print that shirt as they could easily claim the rights and go after you however there is no money in a handful of shirts so you could print yours and get away.

You could also print massive amounts and they maybe don't care but if at some point they do you'll need a lawyer and so forth

aeffertz wrote:

Well that goes back to the original question. Do the tracks own the layout design or not? Why would I have to ask for permission if they didn't? I don't know if you're guessing or not but that was kinda what I assumed... Could I sell this on a poster or t-shirt? Or is this a protected design?

Photo

I have a few cool ideas around this premise, not quite that basic but like I said I don't want to get sued over a couple hundred bucks if the track layouts are a protected thing.

Not my area of expertise at all, but this seems pretty straight forward to me
the layout would not be trademarked and if your design was only the layout, it would not matter at all.
Adding the name "glen helen" is where it seems like you might get into trouble.

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8/6/2020 12:59 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/6/2020 1:13 PM

zookrider62! wrote:

Not my area of expertise at all, but this seems pretty straight forward to me
the layout would not be trademarked and if your design was only the layout, it would not matter at all.
Adding the name "glen helen" is where it seems like you might get into trouble.

Well here’s the thing... ‘Glen Helen’ is just a regional park in California and just so happens to be the shorthand of Glen Helen Raceway. ‘Glen Helen Raceway’ probably falls under some sort of protection which is why I’d exclude Raceway.

Or another example would be like Unadilla. That’s just a city in New York, not the registered name of the track. Or Millville vs Millville MX/Spring Creek MX. This is all hypothetical, of course.

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8/6/2020 1:00 PM

I was kind of picturing something like a track copying Loretta's layout five miles away and then taking paid riders a week/month before the actual Loretta's event as a method of "training"(i.e. cheating). I suspect that would become a legal issue at some point. The layout design on a shirt/sticker like they do for all the road courses is an interesting take on the question. Note that the profits are so small on shirts/stickers that a cease and desist would always be the first step in legal action, so you kind of have a get-out-f-jail-free card, as long as you actually cease and desist.

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8/7/2020 6:01 AM

byke wrote:

I was kind of picturing something like a track copying Loretta's layout five miles away and then taking paid riders a week/month before the actual Loretta's event as a method of "training"(i.e. cheating). I suspect that would become a legal issue at some point. The layout design on a shirt/sticker like they do for all the road courses is an interesting take on the question. Note that the profits are so small on shirts/stickers that a cease and desist would always be the first step in legal action, so you kind of have a get-out-f-jail-free card, as long as you actually cease and desist.

Moto x has a Loretta’s replica track

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8/7/2020 6:14 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/7/2020 6:22 AM

aeffertz wrote:

I was thinking about this before as well. If I wanted to print and sell a T Shirt of, for example, the Glen Helen layout and have it say Glen Helen underneath it, is that legal? No logos or anything but I wasn’t sure if the track layout is protected under a copyright law or something.

I'm not sure about American laws regarding trademarks, but under European laws, a track hypothetically would have to register an image and name as their trademark in order to have it protected. And then only that exact image would be under copyright protection. There are many ways to work around that copyright, hence why you see so many knock-offs that look a bit different but still close enough to see what it's trying to be.

So throwing a track layout on a shirt with the name of the place (like Unadilla or Glen Helen) probably won't be illegal. Using their logo would be, though.

Edit: they could hypothetically trademark their layout, although I doubt any MX track does that.

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