Diesel and petrol ban UK?

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7/26/2017 6:44 AM

To our UK friends: Saw a quick news article about a proposed regulation banning diesel and gas powered vehicles by year 2040. Is this a reality or some legislator thinking out loud?

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7/26/2017 6:51 AM

Ban on the sale of new ones. Just like France have proposed. Not a ban on the use of petrol, diesel or existing vehicles that use those fuels.

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7/26/2017 7:17 AM

With everyone trying to eliminate fossil fueled engines and transitioning to electric motors, I'm curious what the environmental impact of billions of additional batteries around the world will be. Additionally, in my area all of the electricity is generated by burning coal, so I'm curious if electric vehicles truly have a smaller environmental impact compared to traditional fossil fueled vehicles.

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7/26/2017 7:28 AM

Well, i guess the whizbangers that propose these legislations are getting the infrastructure prepared? Nah, no new power plant, aging grids and lines. They want more electric but are taking more power plants offline vs. new ones to replace them. I understand some of the old ones are past their life span but shit better be ready for the additional load on the system.

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7/26/2017 7:34 AM

its 23 years, technology advances so fast, chances are there would be no demand for fossil fuel powered cars by then anyway.

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7/26/2017 8:00 AM

Beeby wrote:

its 23 years, technology advances so fast, chances are there would be no demand for fossil fuel powered cars by then anyway.

23 years ago we were riding around in the famliy v8 truck. Today I am driving around in my famliy v8 truck. I figured it would be like the jetsons by now. There has been great changes but nothing to extreme.

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7/26/2017 8:18 AM

quadzrulebro wrote:

With everyone trying to eliminate fossil fueled engines and transitioning to electric motors, I'm curious what the environmental impact of billions of additional batteries around the world will be. Additionally, in my area all of the electricity is generated by burning coal, so I'm curious if electric vehicles truly have a smaller environmental impact compared to traditional fossil fueled vehicles.

Certainly what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander so their vision of the future may not be realistic everywhere.

But take a look at Denmark. Currently 140% of their electricity needs are met by windpower (source) This works for them in part because they are essentially a peninsula and they set up the majority of their generators out at sea. Still, pretty impressive that an entire country can function on this level.

Being an island, I would think the UK also has a lot of wind generation capacity at sea. The UK is much bigger than Denmark of course and has a larger population. But keep in mind they have several nuclear power plants to supplement their needs (source). If the entire population converted to electric cars tomorrow, they would have a huge problem. But factor in 20+ years of innovation (both in power generation as well as efficiency of usage) and I don't think it is that much of a stretch. It would be a slow transition anyway. Many people would still be using internal combustion engines in 2040 even if this did go into effect.

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7/26/2017 8:58 AM

r.sal923 wrote:

23 years ago we were riding around in the famliy v8 truck. Today I am driving around in my famliy v8 truck. I figured it would be like the jetsons by now. There has been great changes but nothing to extreme.

I don't know dude, no disrespect but that's a pretty weak argument IMO. I think all it demonstrates is that in 2040, some people will still be using internal combustion engines. But to suggest that little will change?

My next door neighbor drives a Nissan Leaf, I live 3 miles from a car factory that exclusively manufactures electric cars (Tesla), every taxi cab in my neck of the woods is a Prius hybrid, one of my buddies drives a full size hybrid truck to tow his boat in, and my local gas station just installed a hydrogen pump so Toyota Mirai owners could fill up.

If 2017 me went back to 1994 me and said all of this would happen (and every pro MX rider would be riding fuel injected 4-strokes), my wig would definitely have been blown back.

And I'm not even bringing up the technology sector (cell phones, VCRs, plasma TVs).

23 years can see a lot of change.





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7/26/2017 8:58 AM

quadzrulebro wrote:

With everyone trying to eliminate fossil fueled engines and transitioning to electric motors, I'm curious what the environmental impact of billions of additional batteries around the world will be. Additionally, in my area all of the electricity is generated by burning coal, so I'm curious if electric vehicles truly have a smaller environmental impact compared to traditional fossil fueled vehicles.

My understanding is that as of just a few years ago, the environmental impact of an electric car over its lifetime was worse than that of a combustion engine powered car. The main reason is the toxicity of creating the batteries.

Hopefully that's all been sorted by now.

If we go all electric at some point, I'll be buying the last 2 gallons of premium gas ever consumed on planet Earth.
... And I'll be mixing a small bit of 2 stroke oil into it. I'm going to go out and buy some Blendzall just to be ready.

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7/26/2017 9:07 AM

The problem is, if everyone had electric cars at the same time we would be unable to cope with demand for electricity when they plug into charge, we can just about cope now.
It won't happen by then!
It's a bit like wood burners in the UK, the tree huggers think they're great, until everyone has them!

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7/26/2017 9:14 AM

scottydogmx wrote:

The problem is, if everyone had electric cars at the same time we would be unable to cope with demand for electricity when they plug into charge, we can just about cope now.
It won't happen by then!
It's a bit like wood burners in the UK, the tree huggers think they're great, until everyone has them!

Really? Lots of municipalities in California won't let you build a new house with a wood burning fireplace anymore.


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7/26/2017 9:27 AM

scottydogmx wrote:

The problem is, if everyone had electric cars at the same time we would be unable to cope with demand for electricity when they plug into charge, we can just about cope now.
It won't happen by then!
It's a bit like wood burners in the UK, the tree huggers think they're great, until everyone has them!

mx_563 wrote:

Really? Lots of municipalities in California won't let you build a new house with a wood burning fireplace anymore.


My understanding is that most of CA regulations are created because the air is so polluted down there. Wood smoke definitely exacerbates that problem, although it produces less CO2 emissions than other forms of heating. It's not like there are enough forests to come close to making that a large scale possibility anyways, could you imagine the cost of a cord of wood in LA?

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7/26/2017 9:40 AM

Well the year 2050 will host the start of singularity for the human race, in detail we will have technology that can do everything we can do, but better.

It's gonna get real weird in a few years my friends.

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7/26/2017 9:41 AM

Beeby wrote:

its 23 years, technology advances so fast, chances are there would be no demand for fossil fuel powered cars by then anyway.

r.sal923 wrote:

23 years ago we were riding around in the famliy v8 truck. Today I am driving around in my famliy v8 truck. I figured it would be like the jetsons by now. There has been great changes but nothing to extreme.

mx_563 wrote:

I don't know dude, no disrespect but that's a pretty weak argument IMO. I think all it demonstrates is that in 2040, some people will still be using internal combustion engines. But to suggest that little will change?

My next door neighbor drives a Nissan Leaf, I live 3 miles from a car factory that exclusively manufactures electric cars (Tesla), every taxi cab in my neck of the woods is a Prius hybrid, one of my buddies drives a full size hybrid truck to tow his boat in, and my local gas station just installed a hydrogen pump so Toyota Mirai owners could fill up.

If 2017 me went back to 1994 me and said all of this would happen (and every pro MX rider would be riding fuel injected 4-strokes), my wig would definitely have been blown back.

And I'm not even bringing up the technology sector (cell phones, VCRs, plasma TVs).

23 years can see a lot of change.





No disrepect but, the needs of many in the US are different than those in your neck of the woods. Just like the energy needs and means of production of the US are very different than many European countries. The same can be said of many issues. That being said, more electricity will be used in the future by everyone, theres no question about that.

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7/26/2017 9:51 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/26/2017 9:59 AM

quadzrulebro wrote:

With everyone trying to eliminate fossil fueled engines and transitioning to electric motors, I'm curious what the environmental impact of billions of additional batteries around the world will be. Additionally, in my area all of the electricity is generated by burning coal, so I'm curious if electric vehicles truly have a smaller environmental impact compared to traditional fossil fueled vehicles.

mx_563 wrote:

Certainly what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander so their vision of the future may not be realistic everywhere.

But take a look at Denmark. Currently 140% of their electricity needs are met by windpower (source) This works for them in part because they are essentially a peninsula and they set up the majority of their generators out at sea. Still, pretty impressive that an entire country can function on this level.

Being an island, I would think the UK also has a lot of wind generation capacity at sea. The UK is much bigger than Denmark of course and has a larger population. But keep in mind they have several nuclear power plants to supplement their needs (source). If the entire population converted to electric cars tomorrow, they would have a huge problem. But factor in 20+ years of innovation (both in power generation as well as efficiency of usage) and I don't think it is that much of a stretch. It would be a slow transition anyway. Many people would still be using internal combustion engines in 2040 even if this did go into effect.

You may want to read your "source" article on that 140% of Denmark's electricity needs coming from wind (not just the headline).

"On an unusually windy day, Denmark found itself producing 116% of its national electricity needs from wind turbines yesterday evening. By 3am on Friday, when electricity demand dropped, that figure had risen to 140%."


"A surge in windfarm installations means Denmark could be producing half of its electricity from renewable sources well before a target date of 2020, according to Kees van der Leun, the chief commercial officer of the Ecofys energy consultancy."

Currently, not even half of Denmark's electricity is generated from renewables...So you are way off the mark saying "But take a look at Denmark. Currently 140% of their electricity needs are met by windpower."

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7/26/2017 10:05 AM

Beeby wrote:

its 23 years, technology advances so fast, chances are there would be no demand for fossil fuel powered cars by then anyway.

r.sal923 wrote:

23 years ago we were riding around in the famliy v8 truck. Today I am driving around in my famliy v8 truck. I figured it would be like the jetsons by now. There has been great changes but nothing to extreme.

mx_563 wrote:

I don't know dude, no disrespect but that's a pretty weak argument IMO. I think all it demonstrates is that in 2040, some people will still be using internal combustion engines. But to suggest that little will change?

My next door neighbor drives a Nissan Leaf, I live 3 miles from a car factory that exclusively manufactures electric cars (Tesla), every taxi cab in my neck of the woods is a Prius hybrid, one of my buddies drives a full size hybrid truck to tow his boat in, and my local gas station just installed a hydrogen pump so Toyota Mirai owners could fill up.

If 2017 me went back to 1994 me and said all of this would happen (and every pro MX rider would be riding fuel injected 4-strokes), my wig would definitely have been blown back.

And I'm not even bringing up the technology sector (cell phones, VCRs, plasma TVs).

23 years can see a lot of change.





Yeah, its not a great argument. You might drive the same truck, or another truck with a V8 engine, but chances are its a different truck and VERY different to the one you drove back then technology wise.

The american insistence to still drive around in v8 fuel drinking machines is also (I'd say) a sign of resistance to progression rather than lack of advancement in technology.

And don't get me wrong, I love a V8 truck!

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7/26/2017 10:06 AM

scottydogmx wrote:

The problem is, if everyone had electric cars at the same time we would be unable to cope with demand for electricity when they plug into charge, we can just about cope now.
It won't happen by then!
It's a bit like wood burners in the UK, the tree huggers think they're great, until everyone has them!

mx_563 wrote:

Really? Lots of municipalities in California won't let you build a new house with a wood burning fireplace anymore.


Oh no, over here a new house has to get so many green points , if you like, to meet building regulations .
A wood burner use to give you quite a few towards it , FUBAR

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7/26/2017 10:15 AM

Its fucking bellendery of the highest order.. how the hell anyone will get about is anyones guess, when you consider that the National Grid here is on its arse almost , for power stations that will take 15 year to plan build and commission , the notion that everything will be electric , and you will just 'plug in' wherever you go is cuckoo land.

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7/26/2017 10:27 AM

Radical wrote:

My understanding is that as of just a few years ago, the environmental impact of an electric car over its lifetime was worse than that of a combustion engine powered car. The main reason is the toxicity of creating the batteries.

Hopefully that's all been sorted by now.

If we go all electric at some point, I'll be buying the last 2 gallons of premium gas ever consumed on planet Earth.
... And I'll be mixing a small bit of 2 stroke oil into it. I'm going to go out and buy some Blendzall just to be ready.

Your understanding isn't correct.

First, building lithium batteries isn't toxic. It's basically salt, graphite, aluminum and other common metals. As for the lifetime argument no one on the ICE side takes into account the energy/CO2 requirements to extract, ship to a refinery, formulate and haul gasoline to a station in their calculations.

The end game with electric vehicles that makes them far superior is, collect renewable (mainly solar) energy from your home, store energy at your home and use it to power your life. We might still be 10-20 years from this being the norm but once it happens the people of that time will wonder how we survived and dealt with ICE powered vehicles.

I'll also add an opinion. I have often wondered once you factor in the 1000's of unique parts inside an average combustion engine and transmission how it compares. Between extracting raw materials and shipping them, to making the specific part and finally shipping it to the assembly plant there's a lot of carbon footprint there.

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7/26/2017 10:46 AM

Sung like Aaron Tippin:

If that's what they plan to do...
then we could use a few more,
like me and you,
Where the stars and stripes,
and the EAGLES, FLYYYY

Good luck with all that. Ridiculous.

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7/26/2017 10:56 AM

Beeby wrote:

its 23 years, technology advances so fast, chances are there would be no demand for fossil fuel powered cars by then anyway.

That's what I was thinking. One this electric tech reaches a true level of feasibility, ICE will be phased out in a hurry. It's like the internet, it kinda started slow then exploded seemingly over night.

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Osama Bin Mixin - Head of the 2-stroke Taliban

7/26/2017 10:57 AM

Um.... non moto?

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Never try to argue with idiots; they will only bring you down to their level.....and being more experienced, they will beat you at their own game!

2020.5 KTM 450 SXF FE
2006 KX250

7/26/2017 11:10 AM

Well fossil fuel is relatively cheap right now, but as other ways become more popular, fossil will probably get even cheaper, at first. Then, when the scales tip, that fossil fuel will skyrocket, and it will then be a rare thing indeed.

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7/26/2017 11:58 AM

The current energy structure we have over here there is no incentive to invest in large scale future infrastructure. Our current grid can barely, and I really mean barely, cope with current demand.

All we have just done is sign ourself up for future fines for targets we have no chance of meeting.

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7/26/2017 12:04 PM
Edited Date/Time: 7/26/2017 12:11 PM

Beeby wrote:

its 23 years, technology advances so fast, chances are there would be no demand for fossil fuel powered cars by then anyway.

JW381 wrote:

That's what I was thinking. One this electric tech reaches a true level of feasibility, ICE will be phased out in a hurry. It's like the internet, it kinda started slow then exploded seemingly over night.

and mobile phones. Look at the technology change there in 20 years. Battery technology will be a lot further down the line, recharging as you drive will be greater through breaking, solar panels will cover the roof, bonnet and boot and the motors will be more effecient. There's also self geerating hydrogen systems. This has way more potential than electric once the storage safety is sorted. Hydrogen is the most abundant gas and it only produces H2O when burnt.
Honda already has one
https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity

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7/26/2017 1:55 PM

quadzrulebro wrote:

With everyone trying to eliminate fossil fueled engines and transitioning to electric motors, I'm curious what the environmental impact of billions of additional batteries around the world will be. Additionally, in my area all of the electricity is generated by burning coal, so I'm curious if electric vehicles truly have a smaller environmental impact compared to traditional fossil fueled vehicles.

Radical wrote:

My understanding is that as of just a few years ago, the environmental impact of an electric car over its lifetime was worse than that of a combustion engine powered car. The main reason is the toxicity of creating the batteries.

Hopefully that's all been sorted by now.

If we go all electric at some point, I'll be buying the last 2 gallons of premium gas ever consumed on planet Earth.
... And I'll be mixing a small bit of 2 stroke oil into it. I'm going to go out and buy some Blendzall just to be ready.

tcannon521 wrote:

Your understanding isn't correct.

First, building lithium batteries isn't toxic. It's basically salt, graphite, aluminum and other common metals. As for the lifetime argument no one on the ICE side takes into account the energy/CO2 requirements to extract, ship to a refinery, formulate and haul gasoline to a station in their calculations.

The end game with electric vehicles that makes them far superior is, collect renewable (mainly solar) energy from your home, store energy at your home and use it to power your life. We might still be 10-20 years from this being the norm but once it happens the people of that time will wonder how we survived and dealt with ICE powered vehicles.

I'll also add an opinion. I have often wondered once you factor in the 1000's of unique parts inside an average combustion engine and transmission how it compares. Between extracting raw materials and shipping them, to making the specific part and finally shipping it to the assembly plant there's a lot of carbon footprint there.

Thanks for the info. I read an article 5 years ago or so that said that at the time, the carbon footprint to create the batteries was great. I'm glad that's not the case, or at least is no longer the case.

I'll still be burning gas for a long time. The electric bikes are not appealing to me at the moment.
That'll probably change for me around the time dragsters and muscle cars go all electric.

For the street, I'm all over having an electric bike. I've seen a couple in action and they're quite sexy!

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7/26/2017 2:04 PM

If you look around you almost everything you see is made of petroleum or petroleum biproduct once the use of petroleum burning vehicles is eliminated
the cost of everything you buy is gonna skyrocket. The cost of building that electric car will make vehicles unobtainable for most. Which is pretty much the plan anyway. Cheap energy is what powers freedom.

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7/26/2017 2:07 PM

Just say'n



The thought of pulling my trailer with anythjng battery powered is ludicrous. I'll be dead in 25yrs good fucking riddance wouldn't want to live on a over regulated shit hole earth by then anyway.
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7/26/2017 2:19 PM

Beeby wrote:

its 23 years, technology advances so fast, chances are there would be no demand for fossil fuel powered cars by then anyway.

r.sal923 wrote:

23 years ago we were riding around in the famliy v8 truck. Today I am driving around in my famliy v8 truck. I figured it would be like the jetsons by now. There has been great changes but nothing to extreme.

anecdotal: (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

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7/26/2017 2:27 PM

KMC440 wrote:

Just say'n



The thought of pulling my trailer with anythjng battery powered is ludicrous. I'll be dead in 25yrs good fucking riddance wouldn't want to live on a over regulated shit hole earth by then anyway.

All the libs/greenies/millennials/hipsters/etc./etc that want all this green energy/electric vehicles stuff don't pull trailers, so they don't think anyone else needs to-nor should they be able to-either. In fact, they don't understand a rural lifestyle-at all-they are "urban" and feel like everyone should want to live the same way-or be forced to live the same way-within walking distance of everything you need-no need for a vehicle at all...and if you need one, just call an "uber". They are perfectly happy and content living that way...so they see no reason why everyone else shouldn't be perfectly happy living that way either.

Electric vehicles are a long long long long long way from being practical in rural America. (Of course, the greenie agenda is doing its best to kill rural America...and I think that will happen before electric vehicles become practical there.

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