Deep field? Really?

blockhead17
Okay so I’m a few beers in but hear me out..
Is the field really deep this year? Or is the level lower at the moment?
I am watching old bar to bar videos and the top guys (RV, RD, JS, CR, RC) could crash in the first turn and just throw down and work their way to the front.
Why don’t we have repeat champions now? How can a 37 year old still podium in 2019? Is it just because we don’t have the people that are on another level? Could explain MXON
** I am not taking anything away from these guys they are the best in the world! Just comparing eras I guess.
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kb228
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kb228 4/3/2019 4:07am
4/3/2019 4:07am
cooper webb is your guy. Were only 1.5 years after dungey. After RC we had a back and forth with stew and reed before we got rv and rd. Now were back in that back and forth area until we get the next guy.
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agn5009
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agn5009 4/3/2019 4:07am
4/3/2019 4:07am Edited Date/Time 4/3/2019 4:08am
Guys can’t come back from a dead last first turn crash because the field is so deep.

There are no repeat champions because the field is so deep.

Chad Reed does not still podium. Doing it once or twice a year does not mean he’s a “podium guy.” Tomac, Webb, Roczen, Musquin, Baggett, Anderson and Barcia are our “podium guys” of 2019. What I mean by that is they’re expected to be there and no one is shocked when they are. We don’t see new threads created when Musquin takes 3rd. We see new threads created when Wilson or Reed take 3rd because it’s unexpected and they’re not “podium guys.”

You must be drunk.

And now this has turned into another Reed debate. Damn it.
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Crush
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Crush 4/3/2019 4:49am
4/3/2019 4:49am Edited Date/Time 4/3/2019 6:06am
Is your glass full or empty?

Do we have more dudes who are pretty solid now or less dudes who are truly exceptional?

I don’t think you can write off the second option when every now and then the freak in the field makes the other top guys look ordinary.
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bama205
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bama205 4/3/2019 5:12am
4/3/2019 5:12am
Less ametuer racers = less talent to crop from.


Do you think James Stewart Sr and Son would have made it today doing what he had to do back in the 90’s ?
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STLSharky
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STLSharky 4/3/2019 5:21am
4/3/2019 5:21am
blockhead17 wrote:
Okay so I’m a few beers in but hear me out.. Is the field really deep this year? Or is the level lower at the moment...
Okay so I’m a few beers in but hear me out..
Is the field really deep this year? Or is the level lower at the moment?
I am watching old bar to bar videos and the top guys (RV, RD, JS, CR, RC) could crash in the first turn and just throw down and work their way to the front.
Why don’t we have repeat champions now? How can a 37 year old still podium in 2019? Is it just because we don’t have the people that are on another level? Could explain MXON
** I am not taking anything away from these guys they are the best in the world! Just comparing eras I guess.
#dropthegate #whosnext #deepfield hah
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kage173
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kage173 4/3/2019 5:40am
4/3/2019 5:40am
I've been saying this for the last 2 years. It is one of the least deep fields in years. It might be a competitive field. But it's hardly deep.

Look at 2011 - RV, RD, CR, JS7 all champions plus Windham, Canard, Millsaps who were all race winners

This field just doesn't stack up to that.
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greenmx5
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greenmx5 4/3/2019 5:45am
4/3/2019 5:45am Edited Date/Time 4/3/2019 5:46am
The field is deep, yes, but it's also a combination of some other things that has reduced the skill gap. Cookie cutter SX tracks that are one lined. Four strokes making the jumps and rhythms easier to do right out of a corner. By lap three it's like a freight train around the track and follow the leader most weekends. With two strokes you had to nail the corner perfect to hit a big line that only the top guys were doing. We still see huge margins outdoors because those tracks haven't changed and the true rider skills can show.
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BobPA
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BobPA 4/3/2019 5:46am
4/3/2019 5:46am
kage173 wrote:
I've been saying this for the last 2 years. It is one of the least deep fields in years. It might be a competitive field. But...
I've been saying this for the last 2 years. It is one of the least deep fields in years. It might be a competitive field. But it's hardly deep.

Look at 2011 - RV, RD, CR, JS7 all champions plus Windham, Canard, Millsaps who were all race winners

This field just doesn't stack up to that.
What’s the difference between competitive and deep?
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dirtwalker 4/3/2019 5:50am
4/3/2019 5:50am
#evenfield?
In a sense it is still the same thing as deep without the fanfare.
The question of speed in comparison to past greats can be broken off as a separate question if you like.

Good racing though....
crusty_xx
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crusty_xx 4/3/2019 5:53am
4/3/2019 5:53am
Depends on what you call "deep"
You can have a deep field in a C-class race if there are 15 guys that are very close to each other. That doesn't mean that an A-class guy can't lap them though
ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 4/3/2019 5:55am
4/3/2019 5:55am
kage173 wrote:
I've been saying this for the last 2 years. It is one of the least deep fields in years. It might be a competitive field. But...
I've been saying this for the last 2 years. It is one of the least deep fields in years. It might be a competitive field. But it's hardly deep.

Look at 2011 - RV, RD, CR, JS7 all champions plus Windham, Canard, Millsaps who were all race winners

This field just doesn't stack up to that.
BobPA wrote:
What’s the difference between competitive and deep?
Semantics. To me a deep field is when you have multiple winners.
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greenmx5
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greenmx5 4/3/2019 6:00am
4/3/2019 6:00am
For the life of me I can't remember who it was that was on the Pulp show the week after Seattle, but they said they know the triple onto the tabletop was doable but nobody pulled the trigger on it. Jumps don't change, and the bikes are only getting better. I may sound like the old guy that says there's nothing like the good old days, but if you go back and watch what RV, Stew, Reed and RC did on an SX track, their speed and stuff they're doing still looks better than what we're seeing now. The corner speed is what sticks out the most to me. Tomac has that some weekends, but not consistent.
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500guy
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500guy 4/3/2019 6:01am
4/3/2019 6:01am
just look at the lap times in qualifying

at one point it was McGrath and then everyone else.

Then it was RC & Reed with Stewart coming along too

Then it was Dungey and RV

Now it's the top 6-10 riders within a second a lap and multiple winners.
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shuggs
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shuggs 4/3/2019 6:03am
4/3/2019 6:03am
The evolution of the bikes has a lot to do with it - how many teams detune them? That with track development being limited don’t know what can be done to separate riders?

BIG ass whoops would be a start, more complicated rhythm sections (no not bigger jumps), varied corners - not just 180’s & 90’s but cambers both ways. All this could help develop rider skills but if only eh.......
GeorgiePorgie 4/3/2019 6:06am
4/3/2019 6:06am
bama205 wrote:
Less ametuer racers = less talent to crop from. Do you think James Stewart Sr and Son would have made it today doing what he had...
Less ametuer racers = less talent to crop from.


Do you think James Stewart Sr and Son would have made it today doing what he had to do back in the 90’s ?
Aren’t all amatuer parents missing house payments to chase all these dreams?

So my answer is....yes? They woulda made it today.
Crush
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Crush 4/3/2019 6:08am
4/3/2019 6:08am
shuggs wrote:
The evolution of the bikes has a lot to do with it - how many teams detune them? That with track development being limited don’t know...
The evolution of the bikes has a lot to do with it - how many teams detune them? That with track development being limited don’t know what can be done to separate riders?

BIG ass whoops would be a start, more complicated rhythm sections (no not bigger jumps), varied corners - not just 180’s & 90’s but cambers both ways. All this could help develop rider skills but if only eh.......
Yeah I do think four strokes, small whoops and less peaky track obstacles has levelled the playing field for sure. Mistakes don't cost like they used too and they're not as prevalent now either.
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Boomslang
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Boomslang 4/3/2019 6:27am
4/3/2019 6:27am
bama205 wrote:
Less ametuer racers = less talent to crop from. Do you think James Stewart Sr and Son would have made it today doing what he had...
Less ametuer racers = less talent to crop from.


Do you think James Stewart Sr and Son would have made it today doing what he had to do back in the 90’s ?
Yes, If James was young and in his prime he would decimate the field, same with RC.

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agn5009
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agn5009 4/3/2019 6:29am
4/3/2019 6:29am
kage173 wrote:
I've been saying this for the last 2 years. It is one of the least deep fields in years. It might be a competitive field. But...
I've been saying this for the last 2 years. It is one of the least deep fields in years. It might be a competitive field. But it's hardly deep.

Look at 2011 - RV, RD, CR, JS7 all champions plus Windham, Canard, Millsaps who were all race winners

This field just doesn't stack up to that.
The majority of the top 15 have a lites title..... hows that not deep?
blockhead17 4/3/2019 6:44am
4/3/2019 6:44am
greenmx5 wrote:
For the life of me I can't remember who it was that was on the Pulp show the week after Seattle, but they said they know...
For the life of me I can't remember who it was that was on the Pulp show the week after Seattle, but they said they know the triple onto the tabletop was doable but nobody pulled the trigger on it. Jumps don't change, and the bikes are only getting better. I may sound like the old guy that says there's nothing like the good old days, but if you go back and watch what RV, Stew, Reed and RC did on an SX track, their speed and stuff they're doing still looks better than what we're seeing now. The corner speed is what sticks out the most to me. Tomac has that some weekends, but not consistent.
Yea this is what I’m getting at around 2010-2013 the level was amazingly high, RV, dunge, reed and stew all winning races.. but if you watch closely they do look like they have faster corner speed and do way more insane jump combos
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bama205
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bama205 4/3/2019 7:28am
4/3/2019 7:28am
bama205 wrote:
Less ametuer racers = less talent to crop from. Do you think James Stewart Sr and Son would have made it today doing what he had...
Less ametuer racers = less talent to crop from.


Do you think James Stewart Sr and Son would have made it today doing what he had to do back in the 90’s ?
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
Aren’t all amatuer parents missing house payments to chase all these dreams?

So my answer is....yes? They woulda made it today.
Are less kids entering / getting bikes at a young age than ever before? If yes then there’s less crop
Moto331
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Moto331 4/3/2019 10:00pm
4/3/2019 10:00pm
blockhead17 wrote:
Okay so I’m a few beers in but hear me out.. Is the field really deep this year? Or is the level lower at the moment...
Okay so I’m a few beers in but hear me out..
Is the field really deep this year? Or is the level lower at the moment?
I am watching old bar to bar videos and the top guys (RV, RD, JS, CR, RC) could crash in the first turn and just throw down and work their way to the front.
Why don’t we have repeat champions now? How can a 37 year old still podium in 2019? Is it just because we don’t have the people that are on another level? Could explain MXON
** I am not taking anything away from these guys they are the best in the world! Just comparing eras I guess.
Dude back in the day the entire second page of racers in the main events were privateers. Now who do we have-
Tomac
Savagy
Marvin
Webb
Roczen
Seely
Malcom
Grant
Reed
Peick
Hill
Anderson
Wilson
Osbourn
Plessenger
Barcia
Bowers
Braxton
Bogle
Bagget

That’s the top 20 when are all healthy, and I think people could argue that on any night, ANY of those dudes could podium if they had an awesome night. The field has never been so stacked
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RedDirtDog
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RedDirtDog 4/4/2019 12:01am
4/4/2019 12:01am Edited Date/Time 4/4/2019 12:03am
look at 2005 a1
RC
JS7
Reed
McGrath
Windham
Pastrana
DV
Larocco
and more, seemed pretty stacked, but as far as 10-15 place guys, its alot more stacked now.
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STLSharky
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STLSharky 4/4/2019 9:48am
4/4/2019 9:48am
Webb doesn’t have the raw speed like Tomac has at times or James Stewart had at times. Once Tomac gets his head straight he’s unbeatable in this field I think.
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kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 4/4/2019 9:50am
4/4/2019 9:50am
The deeper field makes it way harder for a guy to go from 15th to 1st!
Squid Williams 4/4/2019 10:00am
4/4/2019 10:00am
agn5009 wrote:
Guys can’t come back from a dead last first turn crash because the field is so deep. There are no repeat champions because the field is...
Guys can’t come back from a dead last first turn crash because the field is so deep.

There are no repeat champions because the field is so deep.

Chad Reed does not still podium. Doing it once or twice a year does not mean he’s a “podium guy.” Tomac, Webb, Roczen, Musquin, Baggett, Anderson and Barcia are our “podium guys” of 2019. What I mean by that is they’re expected to be there and no one is shocked when they are. We don’t see new threads created when Musquin takes 3rd. We see new threads created when Wilson or Reed take 3rd because it’s unexpected and they’re not “podium guys.”

You must be drunk.

And now this has turned into another Reed debate. Damn it.
I know this is off topic from OP, but you must not be watching SX a lot this year. Aside from his win at Anaheim, Barcia has only finished in the top 5 once when he was 5th at Indy. And I would say him landing on the podium would be a surprise to a lot of people considering the year he has had. And you're not giving Wilson enough credit. He has been on fire as of late and has competed for race wins this year.

I realize this is probably based on the thoughts going into this year, but currently Wilson is expected to be top 5 every week IMO.
Squirrelings 4/4/2019 10:15am
4/4/2019 10:15am
The era you grew up in has everything to do with this. The best riders when you were young at an impressionable age are the ones you will see as having the most competition, because those were your heroes, and you paid more attention. As you get older, current riders don't seem as good (less stacked), but nothing has changed.
mxtech1
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mxtech1 4/4/2019 1:44pm
4/4/2019 1:44pm
The fields are w/o a doubt deeper today than they were say a decade ago.

We now have all of these go-fast schools (MTF, GPF, Reynard's, Carmichael's, Baker's, etc.) turning out pro-caliber riders year over year if they (parents) can afford it.

In the past, guys with raw talent rose to the top and earned the right to buy their way into training programs. Only the top guys were getting these resources and when that is combined with elevated talent, you saw guys like RC, CR, JS be able to crash their brains out and still come from the back and win. Back then the most talented guys had the most resources around them which further increased their ability to whoop a field.

I don't understand how people can say the fields are not deeper with all of these training schools in place. You literally pay X amount of dollars per year and are coached on how to go fast. People always say that it's 4 strokes or non-racy tracks, but the facts are we now have systems in place to groom amateurs into the pro ranks and this is being done on a larger scale that was ever allowable in the past.

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