Dear Vital, RE: 2018 250 shootout

7/26/2017 4:17pm Edited Date/Time 9/7/2017 11:38am
Could you pleeeeeeeaaaaase include the 250 smokers in this year's shootout? I think the 250 smokers are the most relevant they have been in a long time. A lot of amateur racing org's (and even AUS MX Nationals) now allow 250 4T vs 250 2T, so it would be interesting to see an all-in-one comparison with novice, intermediate and pro test riders.

I have no doubt that overall the four strokes are hands-down outselling the two strokes, but I have seen a real, persistent resurgence in two strokes, particularly at the race track. They seem to be multiplying year on year over the last 4 years. Guys buying MX bikes for woods or private property use are a different story and in my opinion make up a large number of new bike sales down here.

And selfishly, I am back on a '17 125 this year and want to buy an '18 250 next season, so there's always that.



|
kkawboy14
Posts
11494
Joined
6/5/2015
Location
TX US
7/26/2017 5:24pm
Doesn't matter......Kawasaki is gonna spankem all
kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
7/27/2017 1:15am
Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point
Jrewing
Posts
2866
Joined
1/4/2014
Location
AU
7/27/2017 1:17am
kiwifan wrote:
Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point
Don't be a Debbie Downer your whole life mate..

The Shop

HenryA
Posts
3789
Joined
12/29/2011
Location
Stockholm SE
7/27/2017 1:36am
kiwifan wrote:
Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point
" A lot of amateur racing org's (and even AUS MX Nationals) now allow 250 4T vs 250 2T, so it would be interesting to see an all-in-one comparison with novice, intermediate and pro test riders."

Whistling
tempura
Posts
2079
Joined
5/18/2015
Location
JP
7/27/2017 1:37am
kiwifan wrote:
Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point
Because they have relevance being tested among the 250 four strokes, since a majority of the potential buyers can race them in the same class.
Plugga
Posts
635
Joined
3/30/2016
Location
Beanbag, QLD AU
7/27/2017 1:37am
kiwifan wrote:
Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point
Holy shit. We agree on something. Shocked

There is no point.

In Australia though you can race smokers right up to the top level. Do the local mags include the smokers in their 250 shootouts? Whistling
Plugga
Posts
635
Joined
3/30/2016
Location
Beanbag, QLD AU
7/27/2017 1:47am
kiwifan wrote:
Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point
HenryA wrote:
" A lot of amateur racing org's (and even AUS MX Nationals) now allow 250 4T vs 250 2T, so it would be interesting to see...
" A lot of amateur racing org's (and even AUS MX Nationals) now allow 250 4T vs 250 2T, so it would be interesting to see an all-in-one comparison with novice, intermediate and pro test riders."

Whistling
Fair point. I'll take that back. Put them in.
kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
7/27/2017 2:02am
kiwifan wrote:
Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point
Jrewing wrote:
Don't be a Debbie Downer your whole life mate..
sure, when you next have an opinion, I will say the same thing to you Smile
Bidirella
Posts
1289
Joined
2/11/2016
Location
NZ
7/27/2017 2:14am
You can race a 250 2 stroke to in the EMX 250! Good chance we can do it next year in the Dutch championship to!
snape99
Posts
193
Joined
4/25/2014
Location
Picnic Point, NSW AU
7/27/2017 4:58am
It would be embarrassing for the manufacturers when the 2 strokes win the shootouts.
resetjet
Posts
2379
Joined
3/16/2012
Location
Tampa, FL US
7/27/2017 5:05am
So that would be the outdated yami vs ktm???? Ill save you some time.....ktm wins.
snape99
Posts
193
Joined
4/25/2014
Location
Picnic Point, NSW AU
7/27/2017 6:02am
Yep husky and ktm 2 strokes I meant.
kkawboy14
Posts
11494
Joined
6/5/2015
Location
TX US
7/27/2017 6:26am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Doesn't matter......Kawasaki is gonna spankem all
[img]http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/ee/ee105be757bac0f5eb5d8b4aaff2686bef0e5a79f0df1b660927c3a4d7ecfdd6.jpg[/img]
One of these days I'm gonna be right!
FI2T
Posts
684
Joined
10/23/2012
Location
Kennewick, WA US
7/27/2017 8:23am
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.
Plugga
Posts
635
Joined
3/30/2016
Location
Beanbag, QLD AU
7/27/2017 1:33pm
snape99 wrote:
It would be embarrassing for the manufacturers when the 2 strokes win the shootouts.
This is why it never happens.
kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
7/27/2017 1:46pm
FI2T wrote:
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of...
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??
early
Posts
8244
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2139th
7/27/2017 1:51pm
kiwifan wrote:
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to...
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??
This is why journalism is dead.
Martini637
Posts
130
Joined
2/3/2017
Location
Sanger, TX US
7/27/2017 2:46pm
Probably wont happen but i sure as hell would read/watch it
Bultaco
Posts
1724
Joined
1/20/2014
Location
Planet, VT US
7/27/2017 3:06pm
I'm all for including 250 2t bikes in a 250 test.

Keep in mind, every rider age 18 and under has grown up only knowing that 4t mx bikes are what the pros ride and win races on. That to them 2t MX bikes hold the same novelty as a race bike, that the old XR series of 4t bikes did in the 80's and 90's when we all bought real motocross bikes with 2t engines.
Spergen
Posts
754
Joined
5/16/2011
Location
GB
7/27/2017 3:09pm
I'll also be very interested in reading that shootout if it ever were to happen. Not going to hold my breath though.
7/27/2017 3:25pm
FI2T wrote:
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of...
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.
kiwifan wrote:
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to...
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??
Pretty sure Yamaha makes more profit off 2 strokes. Not like they have really put a whole lot of r&d into them. 4strokes have legit r&d dollars.
kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
7/27/2017 3:43pm
FI2T wrote:
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of...
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.
kiwifan wrote:
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to...
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??
Pretty sure Yamaha makes more profit off 2 strokes. Not like they have really put a whole lot of r&d into them. 4strokes have legit r&d...
Pretty sure Yamaha makes more profit off 2 strokes. Not like they have really put a whole lot of r&d into them. 4strokes have legit r&d dollars.
you may well be right there....
KDXGarage
Posts
2562
Joined
12/16/2010
Location
AL US
7/27/2017 3:56pm
Around here, it has been 250 2-stroke against 250 4-stroke for years. AMA ruling was in November 2007? Almost 10 years and no major site will include them in a COMBINED 250 shootout. The tradition will continue on this site and others, not a real shootout. No one wants to see a 250 2-stroke shootout either. Either it is all 250's or it is something less.
FI2T
Posts
684
Joined
10/23/2012
Location
Kennewick, WA US
7/27/2017 5:51pm
FI2T wrote:
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of...
Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.
kiwifan wrote:
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to...
thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??
I gotta disagree there. Its another oppertunity to have their bikes promoted. They give us more options then Kawasaki, Honda and Suzuki. I'd think Yamaha, Husky and KTM would rather sell any of us a two stroke then have us buy another manufacturers 4stroke.
tempura
Posts
2079
Joined
5/18/2015
Location
JP
7/27/2017 5:55pm
It should happen, but is highly unlikely. I doubt the manufactures would supply the bikes for such a shootout unless the results favoured their beloved four strokes.
The industry and the "cling on's" does its best to perceive a novelty image to the two stroke unfortunately.
TeamGreen
Posts
28676
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
7/27/2017 7:11pm
tempura wrote:
It should happen, but is highly unlikely. I doubt the manufactures would supply the bikes for such a shootout unless the results favoured their beloved four...
It should happen, but is highly unlikely. I doubt the manufactures would supply the bikes for such a shootout unless the results favoured their beloved four strokes.
The industry and the "cling on's" does its best to perceive a novelty image to the two stroke unfortunately.
While your throwing the wrong people under the bus...really, you are...

It's true that most manufacturers wouldn't support the test.
ML512
Posts
15424
Joined
12/28/2008
Location
Wildomar, CA US
Fantasy
36th
7/27/2017 7:18pm
I addressed this last year when the same question was asked but I'll give it another short go.

1. I personally don't view it as a heads up test. That's my own opinion...

2. As someone else pointed out, quite a few of the riders in our test are products of the four-stroke generation and I could see there being some huge disparity based off personal opinions/preference on what you like to ride. Personally for instance, I'd rate any of the current 250 two-strokes below at least four...maybe five of the 250Fs in my final rankings. I can already hear the mob with their pitch forks, and I doubt I'd be the only one.

3. Too many bikes to test. Seriously, adding in four 250 two-strokes (KTM, TM, Yamaha, and Husky) brings our total up from six to ten bikes to compare. We already struggle to get all the guys through each bike on tests days, and I keep a strict schedule of start and stop times on most of the days. Bringing in that many bikes would really mess with our testing schedule and hamper the time we can spend with each model at each track. Also, the overall article ends up becoming around 60 plus extra paragraphs when I add in each testers thoughts...beyond that it adds to shooting photos and video of each model. Just adding the 350 to my 450 shootout last year caused a lot of headaches...

4. Also mentioned above is the lack of support we'd get from manufacturers towards the tests. Our test bikes are loan units from the OEMs and there would be an issue...oddly to say, some of the companies that make two-strokes aren't even really for it as they consider them a separate class of bike as well. I don't have the budget to go out and buy six 250 four-strokes and three to four 250 two-strokes.

In the end, the two main reasons we choose not to add them in are related to time/the ability to properly test each bike and my own opinion of it not being a straight up shootout as personal preference will play too big of a part on the results of two-strokes in the final score.

I didn't want everyone to think I don't consider advice or criticism on our Shootouts by ignoring this thread, so I decided to drop this response here.

tempura
Posts
2079
Joined
5/18/2015
Location
JP
7/27/2017 7:28pm
ML512 wrote:
I addressed this last year when the same question was asked but I'll give it another short go. 1. I personally don't view it as a...
I addressed this last year when the same question was asked but I'll give it another short go.

1. I personally don't view it as a heads up test. That's my own opinion...

2. As someone else pointed out, quite a few of the riders in our test are products of the four-stroke generation and I could see there being some huge disparity based off personal opinions/preference on what you like to ride. Personally for instance, I'd rate any of the current 250 two-strokes below at least four...maybe five of the 250Fs in my final rankings. I can already hear the mob with their pitch forks, and I doubt I'd be the only one.

3. Too many bikes to test. Seriously, adding in four 250 two-strokes (KTM, TM, Yamaha, and Husky) brings our total up from six to ten bikes to compare. We already struggle to get all the guys through each bike on tests days, and I keep a strict schedule of start and stop times on most of the days. Bringing in that many bikes would really mess with our testing schedule and hamper the time we can spend with each model at each track. Also, the overall article ends up becoming around 60 plus extra paragraphs when I add in each testers thoughts...beyond that it adds to shooting photos and video of each model. Just adding the 350 to my 450 shootout last year caused a lot of headaches...

4. Also mentioned above is the lack of support we'd get from manufacturers towards the tests. Our test bikes are loan units from the OEMs and there would be an issue...oddly to say, some of the companies that make two-strokes aren't even really for it as they consider them a separate class of bike as well. I don't have the budget to go out and buy six 250 four-strokes and three to four 250 two-strokes.

In the end, the two main reasons we choose not to add them in are related to time/the ability to properly test each bike and my own opinion of it not being a straight up shootout as personal preference will play too big of a part on the results of two-strokes in the final score.

I didn't want everyone to think I don't consider advice or criticism on our Shootouts by ignoring this thread, so I decided to drop this response here.

Thanks for responding ML512.
I completely understand the problems you would face convincing OEM's you want to add 2strokes.. You're kinda stuck in the middle between the manufactures and the public.
It's an unfortunate situation, but I do really enjoy your shootouts, they are well put together.

Post a reply to: Dear Vital, RE: 2018 250 shootout

The Latest