Dear Vital, RE: 2018 250 shootout

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7/26/2017 4:17 PM

Could you pleeeeeeeaaaaase include the 250 smokers in this year's shootout? I think the 250 smokers are the most relevant they have been in a long time. A lot of amateur racing org's (and even AUS MX Nationals) now allow 250 4T vs 250 2T, so it would be interesting to see an all-in-one comparison with novice, intermediate and pro test riders.

I have no doubt that overall the four strokes are hands-down outselling the two strokes, but I have seen a real, persistent resurgence in two strokes, particularly at the race track. They seem to be multiplying year on year over the last 4 years. Guys buying MX bikes for woods or private property use are a different story and in my opinion make up a large number of new bike sales down here.

And selfishly, I am back on a '17 125 this year and want to buy an '18 250 next season, so there's always that.



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7/26/2017 5:24 PM

Doesn't matter......Kawasaki is gonna spankem all

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7/26/2017 9:17 PM

kkawboy14 wrote:

Doesn't matter......Kawasaki is gonna spankem all

[LINK TO IMAGE]
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7/27/2017 1:15 AM

Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

7/27/2017 1:17 AM

kiwifan wrote:

Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point

Don't be a Debbie Downer your whole life mate..

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7/27/2017 1:36 AM

kiwifan wrote:

Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point

" A lot of amateur racing org's (and even AUS MX Nationals) now allow 250 4T vs 250 2T, so it would be interesting to see an all-in-one comparison with novice, intermediate and pro test riders."

whistling

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#1
KX125

7/27/2017 1:37 AM

kiwifan wrote:

Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point

Because they have relevance being tested among the 250 four strokes, since a majority of the potential buyers can race them in the same class.

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

7/27/2017 1:37 AM

kiwifan wrote:

Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point

Holy shit. We agree on something. shocked

There is no point.

In Australia though you can race smokers right up to the top level. Do the local mags include the smokers in their 250 shootouts? whistling

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I blame Honda.

7/27/2017 1:47 AM

kiwifan wrote:

Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point

HenryA wrote:

" A lot of amateur racing org's (and even AUS MX Nationals) now allow 250 4T vs 250 2T, so it would be interesting to see an all-in-one comparison with novice, intermediate and pro test riders."

whistling

Fair point. I'll take that back. Put them in.

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I blame Honda.

7/27/2017 2:02 AM

kiwifan wrote:

Why would you include the 2 smokers ? Not being a hater, I simply dont see the point

Jrewing wrote:

Don't be a Debbie Downer your whole life mate..

sure, when you next have an opinion, I will say the same thing to you smile

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

7/27/2017 2:14 AM

You can race a 250 2 stroke to in the EMX 250! Good chance we can do it next year in the Dutch championship to!

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7/27/2017 4:58 AM

It would be embarrassing for the manufacturers when the 2 strokes win the shootouts.

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7/27/2017 5:05 AM

So that would be the outdated yami vs ktm???? Ill save you some time.....ktm wins.

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sponsored by zip tie, JB weld and peanut butter and jelly

7/27/2017 6:02 AM

Yep husky and ktm 2 strokes I meant.

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7/27/2017 6:26 AM

kkawboy14 wrote:

Doesn't matter......Kawasaki is gonna spankem all

One of these days I'm gonna be right!

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7/27/2017 8:23 AM

Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.

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7/27/2017 1:33 PM

snape99 wrote:

It would be embarrassing for the manufacturers when the 2 strokes win the shootouts.

This is why it never happens.

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I blame Honda.

7/27/2017 1:46 PM

FI2T wrote:

Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.

thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

7/27/2017 1:51 PM

kiwifan wrote:

thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??

This is why journalism is dead.

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7/27/2017 2:42 PM

Pleaseeeeeeee yesssss

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7/27/2017 2:46 PM

Probably wont happen but i sure as hell would read/watch it

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7/27/2017 3:06 PM

I'm all for including 250 2t bikes in a 250 test.

Keep in mind, every rider age 18 and under has grown up only knowing that 4t mx bikes are what the pros ride and win races on. That to them 2t MX bikes hold the same novelty as a race bike, that the old XR series of 4t bikes did in the 80's and 90's when we all bought real motocross bikes with 2t engines.

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7/27/2017 3:09 PM

I'll also be very interested in reading that shootout if it ever were to happen. Not going to hold my breath though.

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7/27/2017 3:25 PM

FI2T wrote:

Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.

kiwifan wrote:

thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??

Pretty sure Yamaha makes more profit off 2 strokes. Not like they have really put a whole lot of r&d into them. 4strokes have legit r&d dollars.

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7/27/2017 3:43 PM

FI2T wrote:

Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.

kiwifan wrote:

thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??

nascarnate326 wrote:

Pretty sure Yamaha makes more profit off 2 strokes. Not like they have really put a whole lot of r&d into them. 4strokes have legit r&d dollars.

you may well be right there....

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

7/27/2017 3:56 PM

Around here, it has been 250 2-stroke against 250 4-stroke for years. AMA ruling was in November 2007? Almost 10 years and no major site will include them in a COMBINED 250 shootout. The tradition will continue on this site and others, not a real shootout. No one wants to see a 250 2-stroke shootout either. Either it is all 250's or it is something less.

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7/27/2017 5:51 PM

FI2T wrote:

Yes! Bring a 125 as well! Would manufacturers throw a fit? I think it'd be the most popular and unpopular shootout ever. The Connor McGregor of 250 shootouts love it or hate.... people are going to pay attention.

kiwifan wrote:

thats the thing (in regards to manufacturers), KTM, Yamaha and Husky would probably hate the idea more so than others...why? because think sales, KTM/Husky/Yamaha want to sell 4 strokes as they make more money off them, why would they want a shootout to possibly (and we dont know unless it happened) find that the 2 strokes are better??

I gotta disagree there. Its another oppertunity to have their bikes promoted. They give us more options then Kawasaki, Honda and Suzuki. I'd think Yamaha, Husky and KTM would rather sell any of us a two stroke then have us buy another manufacturers 4stroke.

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7/27/2017 5:55 PM

It should happen, but is highly unlikely. I doubt the manufactures would supply the bikes for such a shootout unless the results favoured their beloved four strokes.
The industry and the "cling on's" does its best to perceive a novelty image to the two stroke unfortunately.

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

7/27/2017 7:11 PM

tempura wrote:

It should happen, but is highly unlikely. I doubt the manufactures would supply the bikes for such a shootout unless the results favoured their beloved four strokes.
The industry and the "cling on's" does its best to perceive a novelty image to the two stroke unfortunately.

While your throwing the wrong people under the bus...really, you are...

It's true that most manufacturers wouldn't support the test.

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

7/27/2017 7:18 PM

I addressed this last year when the same question was asked but I'll give it another short go.

1. I personally don't view it as a heads up test. That's my own opinion...

2. As someone else pointed out, quite a few of the riders in our test are products of the four-stroke generation and I could see there being some huge disparity based off personal opinions/preference on what you like to ride. Personally for instance, I'd rate any of the current 250 two-strokes below at least four...maybe five of the 250Fs in my final rankings. I can already hear the mob with their pitch forks, and I doubt I'd be the only one.

3. Too many bikes to test. Seriously, adding in four 250 two-strokes (KTM, TM, Yamaha, and Husky) brings our total up from six to ten bikes to compare. We already struggle to get all the guys through each bike on tests days, and I keep a strict schedule of start and stop times on most of the days. Bringing in that many bikes would really mess with our testing schedule and hamper the time we can spend with each model at each track. Also, the overall article ends up becoming around 60 plus extra paragraphs when I add in each testers thoughts...beyond that it adds to shooting photos and video of each model. Just adding the 350 to my 450 shootout last year caused a lot of headaches...

4. Also mentioned above is the lack of support we'd get from manufacturers towards the tests. Our test bikes are loan units from the OEMs and there would be an issue...oddly to say, some of the companies that make two-strokes aren't even really for it as they consider them a separate class of bike as well. I don't have the budget to go out and buy six 250 four-strokes and three to four 250 two-strokes.

In the end, the two main reasons we choose not to add them in are related to time/the ability to properly test each bike and my own opinion of it not being a straight up shootout as personal preference will play too big of a part on the results of two-strokes in the final score.

I didn't want everyone to think I don't consider advice or criticism on our Shootouts by ignoring this thread, so I decided to drop this response here.

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