DC's 2-stroke answer...

Void Main
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Void Main
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:36pm
No.

Reason: 250 vs 250 isn't fair.

That would imply that 125 vs 250 and 250 vs 450 is fair.
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petegrath
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petegrath 10/14/2009 6:26pm
10/14/2009 6:26pm
fucked up.

Oh well...

What displacements are fair when comparing 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke?

I want to see a chart!!! Some research maybe?
Void Main
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Void Main 10/14/2009 6:31pm
10/14/2009 6:31pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2009 6:32pm
He also said the classes are geared toward what manufacturers are making now. I don't recall too many 450s when the rules were changed to 450. He should do the right thing and at least move it up to 200 vs 250 or 225 vs 250. How many 2-strokes made the mains last year? It's obviously not fair now and so what if a manufacturer doesn't make a 225 race machine today, maybe they will next year if they can compete just like they did with the 450. That would mean more bike sales which would be a boost to the economy.
SPYGUY
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SPYGUY 10/14/2009 6:33pm
10/14/2009 6:33pm
petegrath wrote:
fucked up.

Oh well...

What displacements are fair when comparing 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke?

I want to see a chart!!! Some research maybe?
A two stroke makes power twice as often as a four stroke does. That's why the whole "double displacement" rule has been in effect since virtually he beginning of time.

All the two stroke fanatics claim that four strokes are cheater bikes since they get "double the displacement" but choose to ignore the inherent advantage of the very two stroke motor they choose to idolize.

Void Main
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Void Main 10/14/2009 6:35pm
10/14/2009 6:35pm
petegrath wrote:
fucked up.

Oh well...

What displacements are fair when comparing 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke?

I want to see a chart!!! Some research maybe?
SPYGUY wrote:
A two stroke makes power twice as often as a four stroke does. That's why the whole "double displacement" rule has been in effect since virtually...
A two stroke makes power twice as often as a four stroke does. That's why the whole "double displacement" rule has been in effect since virtually he beginning of time.

All the two stroke fanatics claim that four strokes are cheater bikes since they get "double the displacement" but choose to ignore the inherent advantage of the very two stroke motor they choose to idolize.

Sounds like 4-strokes have a design flaw.

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wardy
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wardy 10/14/2009 6:38pm
10/14/2009 6:38pm
and well who really expected anything different? sponsors run that show, and well they make the machines they can make the most money off of.

2 strokes are a great amatuer bike, and well most everyone knows this. but in the world of "pro".......... oems' and the folks making all the fancy stuff for the thumpers sit on the throne. They will never allow it......... can't really blame them or the sanctioning body as well it's business.

Thank fully they don't have that same control on the amatuer side. wood riders know what works, and well look what is likley the most popular woods bike..........

an electric start two stroke.

Smile
oldx
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oldx 10/14/2009 6:38pm
10/14/2009 6:38pm
Somebody get a rope!
Void Main
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Void Main 10/14/2009 6:40pm
10/14/2009 6:40pm
oldx wrote:
Somebody get a rope!
No, we have kick starters and electric starts now days. Haven't needed a rope to start a bike in a long time.
petegrath
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petegrath 10/14/2009 6:47pm
10/14/2009 6:47pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:45am
petegrath wrote:
fucked up.

Oh well...

What displacements are fair when comparing 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke?

I want to see a chart!!! Some research maybe?
SPYGUY wrote:
A two stroke makes power twice as often as a four stroke does. That's why the whole "double displacement" rule has been in effect since virtually...
A two stroke makes power twice as often as a four stroke does. That's why the whole "double displacement" rule has been in effect since virtually he beginning of time.

All the two stroke fanatics claim that four strokes are cheater bikes since they get "double the displacement" but choose to ignore the inherent advantage of the very two stroke motor they choose to idolize.

Nah, a two stroke doesn't exactly make "twice the power" when comparing actualy HP delivered to the wheel. From what I hear, it's more like about 40% more power.

But I'm not an engineer.

Add the R&D to the chassis the big folks have invested into the 4-stroke racers, it might be more like 30% or less, when taking it to the rear wheel.

Let's not even get into suspension.

Again, double displacement is flawed right from the get go because an equal displacement two stoke does not produce double the power of an equal displacement 4 stroke. Even old-school four strokes. From a motor perspective only (again, leave out chassis and suspension).

Our problem is a marketing decision coupled by an uninformed bunch of politicians who have no idea about the laws they vote on.

And yes, I'm referring to the two stoke ban of California.
Kinetic1
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Kinetic1 10/14/2009 6:52pm
10/14/2009 6:52pm
Davey is right. It sucks but he is right. A 250 2t is not = to a 250 4t. I don't know whether a 200 or a 225 is the answer or not but something needs to be done to save the 2t.
Void Main
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Void Main 10/14/2009 6:53pm
10/14/2009 6:53pm
Kinetic1 wrote:
Davey is right. It sucks but he is right. A 250 2t is not = to a 250 4t. I don't know whether a 200 or...
Davey is right. It sucks but he is right. A 250 2t is not = to a 250 4t. I don't know whether a 200 or a 225 is the answer or not but something needs to be done to save the 2t.
So is a 125 2-stroke equal to a 250 4-stroke?
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Kinetic1 10/14/2009 6:57pm
10/14/2009 6:57pm
Kinetic1 wrote:
Davey is right. It sucks but he is right. A 250 2t is not = to a 250 4t. I don't know whether a 200 or...
Davey is right. It sucks but he is right. A 250 2t is not = to a 250 4t. I don't know whether a 200 or a 225 is the answer or not but something needs to be done to save the 2t.
Void Main wrote:
So is a 125 2-stroke equal to a 250 4-stroke?
Absolutely not. Hence my post.
newmann
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newmann 10/14/2009 6:57pm
10/14/2009 6:57pm
When the 250F took off, Mitch Payton was not a fan of it in the least. He knew then it wasn't equal between the 125 and 250F.
mxer146
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mxer146 10/14/2009 6:57pm
10/14/2009 6:57pm
10 pages by the morning...
Void Main
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Void Main 10/14/2009 6:59pm
10/14/2009 6:59pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2009 7:01pm
Kinetic1 wrote:
Davey is right. It sucks but he is right. A 250 2t is not = to a 250 4t. I don't know whether a 200 or...
Davey is right. It sucks but he is right. A 250 2t is not = to a 250 4t. I don't know whether a 200 or a 225 is the answer or not but something needs to be done to save the 2t.
Void Main wrote:
So is a 125 2-stroke equal to a 250 4-stroke?
Kinetic1 wrote:
Absolutely not. Hence my post.
My point is we know that 125 vs 250 is not fair and we "assume" that 250 vs 250 is unfair so the answer is to do nothing? Right now there are 0 2-strokes racing in the pro classes so why not raise it to 200? What's the worst that would happen, we get a few 2-strokes in the mains? How is that bad?

P.S. My questions are more targeted toward DC and the powers that be.
petegrath
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petegrath 10/14/2009 6:59pm
10/14/2009 6:59pm
mxer146 wrote:
10 pages by the morning...
heh heh heh...

Yep, probably.

Does that say something about the subject?
lostboy819
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lostboy819 10/14/2009 7:02pm
10/14/2009 7:02pm
Bottom line is that the big four run MX and SX and DC does what they say,end of story and I can live with that.
Void Main
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Void Main 10/14/2009 7:04pm
10/14/2009 7:04pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2009 7:06pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Bottom line is that the big four run MX and SX and DC does what they say,end of story and I can live with that.
Ya know, I would be fine with that answer because I also believe that is the actual reason. If that would have been DC's answer to the question that would be the end of it, but that wasn't his answer.
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Kinetic1 10/14/2009 7:08pm
10/14/2009 7:08pm
Void Main wrote:
So is a 125 2-stroke equal to a 250 4-stroke?
Kinetic1 wrote:
Absolutely not. Hence my post.
Void Main wrote:
My point is we know that 125 vs 250 is not fair and we "assume" that 250 vs 250 is unfair so the answer is to...
My point is we know that 125 vs 250 is not fair and we "assume" that 250 vs 250 is unfair so the answer is to do nothing? Right now there are 0 2-strokes racing in the pro classes so why not raise it to 200? What's the worst that would happen, we get a few 2-strokes in the mains? How is that bad?

P.S. My questions are more targeted toward DC and the powers that be.
I get your point and agree 100%. They need to do something. DC is wrong from the standpoint of the manufacturers not making the 2t and therefore not allowing them to race. There were no 450 four strokes when they made the rule. They need to let the 2t race in whatever form they can, regardless of allowed displacement. Figure it out, it's not rocet science.

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miedosoracing1 10/14/2009 7:09pm
10/14/2009 7:09pm
Hello! I've been telling u guys we gotta push the 144cc its our last shot. I told u the 250 vs 250 wasn't happening
aggiemoto99
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aggiemoto99 10/14/2009 7:11pm
10/14/2009 7:11pm
DC has dissapointed me endlessly.

Oh well.

I don't understand what the problem is!?? Is our sport an entertainment driven industry? Yes. It's marketed that way.

If the 2 stroke didn't generate any buzz...why is every debate on it a a ton of pages??? Every time too.

Faster, slower...and anything in between...it generates buzz...something our sport can use.

I hope the 350 four stroke KTM catches on...it's not only the displacement limit that SHOULD have been set...but it may bring back the 250 for many people..

DC should be ashamed. I agree that it's not fair...but for who? How fair is the current set up? Is a PC team 250 anywhere close to what the sell? NO.

In fact...they even give preferrential exhausts to privateers...that no one can purchase..and the "word" from said privateers...the difference in that single exhaust change was astounding from purchased to "loaned"

The privateer is shunned from this sport currently...and there is nothing being done to fix that.

I agree with previous thread...bring back the claim rule. 20k for a 250f, 30k for a 450f.



CR250Rider
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CR250Rider 10/14/2009 7:13pm
10/14/2009 7:13pm
i hate the oems that don't make smokers

serious hate.

TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 10/14/2009 7:17pm
10/14/2009 7:17pm
By the time you look at how the Fuel Rules are skewed and the in-equalities in technology...

IT IS EQUAL.

On the other hand...

D.C.'s being dead honest and folks are still rantin'...

Oh, well, this is the 'net, after-all.
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WORCSRacer 10/14/2009 7:23pm
10/14/2009 7:23pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:45am
CR250Rider wrote:
i hate the oems that don't make smokers

serious hate.

Um you are riding a Honda are you not?


This is pretty simple, 150 and 300 for two strokes and the traditional limits for 4 strokes. Let's race. Problem is two strokes aren't selling for MX. Period.
newmann
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newmann 10/14/2009 7:24pm
10/14/2009 7:24pm
aggiemoto99 wrote:
DC has dissapointed me endlessly. Oh well. I don't understand what the problem is!?? Is our sport an entertainment driven industry? Yes. It's marketed that way...
DC has dissapointed me endlessly.

Oh well.

I don't understand what the problem is!?? Is our sport an entertainment driven industry? Yes. It's marketed that way.

If the 2 stroke didn't generate any buzz...why is every debate on it a a ton of pages??? Every time too.

Faster, slower...and anything in between...it generates buzz...something our sport can use.

I hope the 350 four stroke KTM catches on...it's not only the displacement limit that SHOULD have been set...but it may bring back the 250 for many people..

DC should be ashamed. I agree that it's not fair...but for who? How fair is the current set up? Is a PC team 250 anywhere close to what the sell? NO.

In fact...they even give preferrential exhausts to privateers...that no one can purchase..and the "word" from said privateers...the difference in that single exhaust change was astounding from purchased to "loaned"

The privateer is shunned from this sport currently...and there is nothing being done to fix that.

I agree with previous thread...bring back the claim rule. 20k for a 250f, 30k for a 450f.



Claiming a bike is bad karma. Last guy that did it wasn't seen or heard from for twenty plus years. It DAMN sure didn't get him a factory ride for the next year.Smile
2T42
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2T42 10/14/2009 7:25pm
10/14/2009 7:25pm
No worries. This will equalize one way or the other. It's not an accident that every manufacturer that makes proper amounts of 2 and 4 strokes ALL sell MORE 2 strokes than 4's. The big 4 in their arrogance think that they can control the market. DC is not willing to stand up and do what's right. They will all pay the price. There will be another series come along and with the combined effort of the Euro bike makers and consumer demand, things will change. With more 2 stroke fans and buyers than 4 strokers it will come around naturally. By the time DC, AMA and the big 4 realize they are pushing too hard against the grain, it will be too late. I will not feel for them.

I will not attend any of the 4 stroke SX or nationals this year nor will I ever buy a 4 stroke, so be it. Me and all my racing buds have been involved with the sport for 22 years and this is the last straw. We are already looking forward to the new 2 stroke series. Me and my buds will be at those next year or the following year if it takes that long. Obviously the 2 stroke bikes are not going anywhere, it's only a matter of time before the fans/racers ditch the big 4 controlled 4 $troke events and attend real races again.

Socialized MX is not going to fly in a free country. Too many people do not want it.
WORCSRacer
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WORCSRacer 10/14/2009 7:28pm
10/14/2009 7:28pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2009 7:28pm
aggiemoto99 wrote:
DC has dissapointed me endlessly. Oh well. I don't understand what the problem is!?? Is our sport an entertainment driven industry? Yes. It's marketed that way...
DC has dissapointed me endlessly.

Oh well.

I don't understand what the problem is!?? Is our sport an entertainment driven industry? Yes. It's marketed that way.

If the 2 stroke didn't generate any buzz...why is every debate on it a a ton of pages??? Every time too.

Faster, slower...and anything in between...it generates buzz...something our sport can use.

I hope the 350 four stroke KTM catches on...it's not only the displacement limit that SHOULD have been set...but it may bring back the 250 for many people..

DC should be ashamed. I agree that it's not fair...but for who? How fair is the current set up? Is a PC team 250 anywhere close to what the sell? NO.

In fact...they even give preferrential exhausts to privateers...that no one can purchase..and the "word" from said privateers...the difference in that single exhaust change was astounding from purchased to "loaned"

The privateer is shunned from this sport currently...and there is nothing being done to fix that.

I agree with previous thread...bring back the claim rule. 20k for a 250f, 30k for a 450f.



newmann wrote:
Claiming a bike is bad karma. Last guy that did it wasn't seen or heard from for twenty plus years. It DAMN sure didn't get him...
Claiming a bike is bad karma. Last guy that did it wasn't seen or heard from for twenty plus years. It DAMN sure didn't get him a factory ride for the next year.Smile
Who cares? In case you aren't keeping up with current events, factory rides are disappearing as quickly as the two stroke.
sdfog1
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sdfog1 10/14/2009 7:29pm
10/14/2009 7:29pm
I have both a ktm 200xc two stroke and a 250sx-f four stroke. I currently race a cross country series here in Texas in the 125 intermediate class(I was leading points until I broke my arm, came back too early, and re-broke itAngry ) and I do lots of moto also. I think that the 200 is the closest a two stroke can get to a 250f. The 200 can run with a 250f no problem.
WORCSRacer
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WORCSRacer 10/14/2009 7:30pm
10/14/2009 7:30pm
2T42 wrote:
No worries. This will equalize one way or the other. It's not an accident that every manufacturer that makes proper amounts of 2 and 4 strokes...
No worries. This will equalize one way or the other. It's not an accident that every manufacturer that makes proper amounts of 2 and 4 strokes ALL sell MORE 2 strokes than 4's. The big 4 in their arrogance think that they can control the market. DC is not willing to stand up and do what's right. They will all pay the price. There will be another series come along and with the combined effort of the Euro bike makers and consumer demand, things will change. With more 2 stroke fans and buyers than 4 strokers it will come around naturally. By the time DC, AMA and the big 4 realize they are pushing too hard against the grain, it will be too late. I will not feel for them.

I will not attend any of the 4 stroke SX or nationals this year nor will I ever buy a 4 stroke, so be it. Me and all my racing buds have been involved with the sport for 22 years and this is the last straw. We are already looking forward to the new 2 stroke series. Me and my buds will be at those next year or the following year if it takes that long. Obviously the 2 stroke bikes are not going anywhere, it's only a matter of time before the fans/racers ditch the big 4 controlled 4 $troke events and attend real races again.

Socialized MX is not going to fly in a free country. Too many people do not want it.
What type of weed are you smoking?
2T42
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2T42 10/14/2009 7:33pm
10/14/2009 7:33pm
2T42 wrote:
No worries. This will equalize one way or the other. It's not an accident that every manufacturer that makes proper amounts of 2 and 4 strokes...
No worries. This will equalize one way or the other. It's not an accident that every manufacturer that makes proper amounts of 2 and 4 strokes ALL sell MORE 2 strokes than 4's. The big 4 in their arrogance think that they can control the market. DC is not willing to stand up and do what's right. They will all pay the price. There will be another series come along and with the combined effort of the Euro bike makers and consumer demand, things will change. With more 2 stroke fans and buyers than 4 strokers it will come around naturally. By the time DC, AMA and the big 4 realize they are pushing too hard against the grain, it will be too late. I will not feel for them.

I will not attend any of the 4 stroke SX or nationals this year nor will I ever buy a 4 stroke, so be it. Me and all my racing buds have been involved with the sport for 22 years and this is the last straw. We are already looking forward to the new 2 stroke series. Me and my buds will be at those next year or the following year if it takes that long. Obviously the 2 stroke bikes are not going anywhere, it's only a matter of time before the fans/racers ditch the big 4 controlled 4 $troke events and attend real races again.

Socialized MX is not going to fly in a free country. Too many people do not want it.
WORCSRacer wrote:
What type of weed are you smoking?
It's called ..."what comes around goes around"

and I can't wait for it!

or

"Careful for what you wish for because you might just get it"

BRAAAP!

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