Coming full circle

Cashmore wrote:

It would put half of the moto industry out of a job, and a lot of companies out of business. Let's hope not. Maybe pro circuit...

It would put half of the moto industry out of a job, and a lot of companies out of business. Let's hope not.

Maybe pro circuit and FMF should hit Elon Musk up and come up with a super battery

Cashmore wrote:

It would put half of the moto industry out of a job, and a lot of companies out of business. Let's hope not. Maybe pro circuit...

It would put half of the moto industry out of a job, and a lot of companies out of business. Let's hope not.

Maybe pro circuit and FMF should hit Elon Musk up and come up with a super battery

TheoreticalMotocrosser wrote:

I dont like electric bikes, I dont like electric anything, but this isnt a factor in why I think electric bikes shouldnt be allowed to race...

I dont like electric bikes, I dont like electric anything, but this isnt a factor in why I think electric bikes shouldnt be allowed to race mx.

My question is how do you make a comparison between an electric bike and a gas powered bike? Sure, the Alta bike is roughly comparable to a current 250 four stroke, but what about in 5 years? Will that same size/voltage/amperage/etc "engine" be twice as fast as it is now?

This happened with two stroke vs four stroke. The 250 four stroke vs 125 two stroke and 450 four stroke vs 250 two stroke rules were made when racing four strokes were still undeveloped. Time went on and they were made faster, lighter, etc, and they became much better than the two stroke bikes, thus making the 250 vs 125 and 450 vs 250 classes hugely unfair.

Now people still compare two stroke vs four stroke according to very outdated displacement rules (even though on a CC to CC comparison a two stroke is still a better engine).

The same thing is going to happen with the electric bikes. They will be given a huge 'handicap' early on, will be developed further, and then far exceed the necessary handicap, making any other type of bike obsolete.

Then of course we will be paying $10,000 for a bike that is going to effectively need a new 'engine' every 5 years at the cost of $5000 a piece, forcing out even more of the consumer base and making MX an even more exclusive and expensive sport than it already is.

Bruce372 wrote:

Dude, a top of the line 450 is 10,000 dollars and a complete engine rebuild might cost several thousand so I am not sure that's a...

Dude, a top of the line 450 is 10,000 dollars and a complete engine rebuild might cost several thousand so I am not sure that's a valid argument.

Didn't the alta bike claim over 1000 hours with no maintainance on the motor.

TheoreticalMotocrosser wrote:

I dont like electric bikes, I dont like electric anything, but this isnt a factor in why I think electric bikes shouldnt be allowed to race...

I dont like electric bikes, I dont like electric anything, but this isnt a factor in why I think electric bikes shouldnt be allowed to race mx.

My question is how do you make a comparison between an electric bike and a gas powered bike? Sure, the Alta bike is roughly comparable to a current 250 four stroke, but what about in 5 years? Will that same size/voltage/amperage/etc "engine" be twice as fast as it is now?

This happened with two stroke vs four stroke. The 250 four stroke vs 125 two stroke and 450 four stroke vs 250 two stroke rules were made when racing four strokes were still undeveloped. Time went on and they were made faster, lighter, etc, and they became much better than the two stroke bikes, thus making the 250 vs 125 and 450 vs 250 classes hugely unfair.

Now people still compare two stroke vs four stroke according to very outdated displacement rules (even though on a CC to CC comparison a two stroke is still a better engine).

The same thing is going to happen with the electric bikes. They will be given a huge 'handicap' early on, will be developed further, and then far exceed the necessary handicap, making any other type of bike obsolete.

Then of course we will be paying $10,000 for a bike that is going to effectively need a new 'engine' every 5 years at the cost of $5000 a piece, forcing out even more of the consumer base and making MX an even more exclusive and expensive sport than it already is.

chump6784 wrote:

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other...

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other form of motorsport as technology advances the rules are revisited. When the four strokes started taking over the FIM/AMA could have stepped in and started reducing 4 stroke capacity to keep things even. They didn't and we pretty much saw the end of two strokes.
They could easily write a rule saying in 2020 for example, the 450cc class becomes 350cc and the 250cc class becomes 175cc.

The same would happen with electric motors. The rule makers have a technical team with the latest offering of both petrol and electric bikes. Each year they test them and adjust the rules to suit advancements in technology giving the manufacturers enough time to make changes for upcoming year models

chump6784 wrote:

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other...

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other form of motorsport as technology advances the rules are revisited. When the four strokes started taking over the FIM/AMA could have stepped in and started reducing 4 stroke capacity to keep things even. They didn't and we pretty much saw the end of two strokes.
They could easily write a rule saying in 2020 for example, the 450cc class becomes 350cc and the 250cc class becomes 175cc.

The same would happen with electric motors. The rule makers have a technical team with the latest offering of both petrol and electric bikes. Each year they test them and adjust the rules to suit advancements in technology giving the manufacturers enough time to make changes for upcoming year models

Andy_Greenney wrote:

Your assuming they would 'want' to keep combustion engines competitive against electric motors....just like they wanted to keep 2T around

chump6784 wrote:

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other...

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other form of motorsport as technology advances the rules are revisited. When the four strokes started taking over the FIM/AMA could have stepped in and started reducing 4 stroke capacity to keep things even. They didn't and we pretty much saw the end of two strokes.
They could easily write a rule saying in 2020 for example, the 450cc class becomes 350cc and the 250cc class becomes 175cc.

The same would happen with electric motors. The rule makers have a technical team with the latest offering of both petrol and electric bikes. Each year they test them and adjust the rules to suit advancements in technology giving the manufacturers enough time to make changes for upcoming year models

chump6784 wrote:

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other...

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other form of motorsport as technology advances the rules are revisited. When the four strokes started taking over the FIM/AMA could have stepped in and started reducing 4 stroke capacity to keep things even. They didn't and we pretty much saw the end of two strokes.
They could easily write a rule saying in 2020 for example, the 450cc class becomes 350cc and the 250cc class becomes 175cc.

The same would happen with electric motors. The rule makers have a technical team with the latest offering of both petrol and electric bikes. Each year they test them and adjust the rules to suit advancements in technology giving the manufacturers enough time to make changes for upcoming year models

TheoreticalMotocrosser wrote:

Adjusting the displacement/size of engine every year based on performance would make the manufacturers back away from racing altogether. You cant just develop an entire new...

Adjusting the displacement/size of engine every year based on performance would make the manufacturers back away from racing altogether. You cant just develop an entire new engine every year, that would be crazy expensive. In theory its a good idea but it wouldnt work in real life.

There really isnt any feasible way to keep the two types of engines competitive... theres too many factors involved to see 10 years down the road and how the bikes will evolve.

But it will probably be as the other post said... they dont care about keeping them competitive, eventually we will all be riding one form of bike or another, but not by choice.

TheoreticalMotocrosser wrote:

I dont like electric bikes, I dont like electric anything, but this isnt a factor in why I think electric bikes shouldnt be allowed to race...

I dont like electric bikes, I dont like electric anything, but this isnt a factor in why I think electric bikes shouldnt be allowed to race mx.

My question is how do you make a comparison between an electric bike and a gas powered bike? Sure, the Alta bike is roughly comparable to a current 250 four stroke, but what about in 5 years? Will that same size/voltage/amperage/etc "engine" be twice as fast as it is now?

This happened with two stroke vs four stroke. The 250 four stroke vs 125 two stroke and 450 four stroke vs 250 two stroke rules were made when racing four strokes were still undeveloped. Time went on and they were made faster, lighter, etc, and they became much better than the two stroke bikes, thus making the 250 vs 125 and 450 vs 250 classes hugely unfair.

Now people still compare two stroke vs four stroke according to very outdated displacement rules (even though on a CC to CC comparison a two stroke is still a better engine).

The same thing is going to happen with the electric bikes. They will be given a huge 'handicap' early on, will be developed further, and then far exceed the necessary handicap, making any other type of bike obsolete.

Then of course we will be paying $10,000 for a bike that is going to effectively need a new 'engine' every 5 years at the cost of $5000 a piece, forcing out even more of the consumer base and making MX an even more exclusive and expensive sport than it already is.

chump6784 wrote:

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other...

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other form of motorsport as technology advances the rules are revisited. When the four strokes started taking over the FIM/AMA could have stepped in and started reducing 4 stroke capacity to keep things even. They didn't and we pretty much saw the end of two strokes.
They could easily write a rule saying in 2020 for example, the 450cc class becomes 350cc and the 250cc class becomes 175cc.

The same would happen with electric motors. The rule makers have a technical team with the latest offering of both petrol and electric bikes. Each year they test them and adjust the rules to suit advancements in technology giving the manufacturers enough time to make changes for upcoming year models

Cashmore wrote:

It would put half of the moto industry out of a job, and a lot of companies out of business. Let's hope not. Maybe pro circuit...

It would put half of the moto industry out of a job, and a lot of companies out of business. Let's hope not.

Maybe pro circuit and FMF should hit Elon Musk up and come up with a super battery

chump6784 wrote:

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other...

The problem with the two stroke and four stroke rules is the people who made them used a set and forget ruling. In nearly every other form of motorsport as technology advances the rules are revisited. When the four strokes started taking over the FIM/AMA could have stepped in and started reducing 4 stroke capacity to keep things even. They didn't and we pretty much saw the end of two strokes.
They could easily write a rule saying in 2020 for example, the 450cc class becomes 350cc and the 250cc class becomes 175cc.

The same would happen with electric motors. The rule makers have a technical team with the latest offering of both petrol and electric bikes. Each year they test them and adjust the rules to suit advancements in technology giving the manufacturers enough time to make changes for upcoming year models

TheoreticalMotocrosser wrote:

Adjusting the displacement/size of engine every year based on performance would make the manufacturers back away from racing altogether. You cant just develop an entire new...

Adjusting the displacement/size of engine every year based on performance would make the manufacturers back away from racing altogether. You cant just develop an entire new engine every year, that would be crazy expensive. In theory its a good idea but it wouldnt work in real life.

There really isnt any feasible way to keep the two types of engines competitive... theres too many factors involved to see 10 years down the road and how the bikes will evolve.

But it will probably be as the other post said... they dont care about keeping them competitive, eventually we will all be riding one form of bike or another, but not by choice.

Radical wrote:

Not every year, every 5-10 years the displacement should be adjusted as needed to keep the speed relatively the same as it has been traditionally.

MotoChris wrote:

About 20 years ago when Doug Henry showed up at the races on a 4 stroke, my dad told me that all MX bikes would eventually...

About 20 years ago when Doug Henry showed up at the races on a 4 stroke, my dad told me that all MX bikes would eventually be 4 stroke. I laughed and told him there was no way that 4T would ever take over "my" sport. 2T forever! Well.... we all know how that worked out. The other day I showed my 14yo a video of the Alta electric bike on a Motocross track and after watching with a smirk on his face turned to me and said..... "there is no way electric bikes will ever take over Motocross"! My dad and I shared a laugh over this on Christmas Day.

hartebreak wrote:

I also think its ironic that back in 96-97 when Lance Smail and Doug Henry were racing the thumpers, the announcers were making a big deal...

I also think its ironic that back in 96-97 when Lance Smail and Doug Henry were racing the thumpers, the announcers were making a big deal about it and the fans were going crazy screaming about how cool the bikes sound. Now days, when a dude runs around on a 2 stroke, its the same thing, people going crazy. Kind of funny how fickle us fans are.