Club MX being sued, could affect other tracks?

usafwx
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1/16/2019 12:12pm Edited Date/Time 1/16/2019 12:14pm
Interesting read and I feel for the family. I will chime in and say regulation still cannot take out 100% of the risk. Even in NJ, one of the most regulated states for MX / dirtbikes, classes are broken up by skill and flaggers (though not very skilled) are littered throughout the track during practice, however many times you have the guy who should be riding B or A class running C class practice tripling and whipping over the C class / beginner guys, creating the same scenario as described in this article. Sad nonetheless.
gt80rider
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1/16/2019 12:22pm
kaptkaos wrote:
I agree, that should not even be factored into the equation. However, I see a lot of issues here. 1. The minor child signed a waiver...
I agree, that should not even be factored into the equation.

However, I see a lot of issues here.

1. The minor child signed a waiver and the parent guardian did not- Neglect by track operator
2. Sending a mini out with full sized bikes- Neglect by track operator
3. The article wasnt clear if there were flaggers on the course or not.

I think for the track to have an insurance policy they must comply with many requirements even including grooming, prep flaggers, no mixed classes, waiver process, and a host of other safety factors.

This is a private facility and not a race facility so I dont know what they are required to provide, but I can tell you its going to be expensive to defend and the outcome may not be cheap either.

Yes moto is a dangerous sport for sure, but we need to be aware of the risks we take and the must be some due diligence on basic safety.

To me, the kid should never have been allowed to enter a track with a "catapult" knowing it was his first time, and especially during an open practice. IMHO minis and beginners should always have dedicated sessions.

Sad that the father did not know enough about the sport to do it safely and that no one at the track was there to guide them. Its a terrible tragedy and totally avoidable. We all are free to take the risks we know about, but we should also be informed of the risks.

No way a first timer should be in that risky situation. Not sure how to prevent it, but maybe it can be written on the waiver that you sign that beginners should never enter a track during an open session and to train the track workers better.
As a parent, it is 1000000% MY responsibility to keep MY kids safe.

Do I let my 8 year old out on the track with the big bikes? NEVER.
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kb228
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1/16/2019 12:37pm
I think requiring flaggers and requiring riders’ practices to be split into sessions of at least big bikes and little bikes is a good measure from a legal standpoint.
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kb228
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1/16/2019 12:40pm
Titan1 wrote:
What does it cost to run a track day at a local road race course? (The think I heard that the Utah Motorsports campus-formerly Miller Motorsports...
What does it cost to run a track day at a local road race course? (The think I heard that the Utah Motorsports campus-formerly Miller Motorsports that hosted the national-charges $25/lap...I could be wrong...that's not my world.)

You willing to pay those kinds of prices to ride motocross on the weekends? Wanna kill motocross? Start charging tarmac track days prices to ride on the weekends.
RichieW13 wrote:
You will also kill motocross when the tracks get bankrupted by lawsuits and/or closed because the owners don't want to risk bankruptcy. People riding motorcycles have...
You will also kill motocross when the tracks get bankrupted by lawsuits and/or closed because the owners don't want to risk bankruptcy.

People riding motorcycles have to understand that what they are doing is dangerous. But the track operators also need to do a little bit to ensure the safety of their riders. And there probably should be some due diligence to make sure newbies understand what they are getting into.
Its not going to cost much to hire some flaggers. Pay them $100 for a day. thats literally 4 riders. Tracks i go to get 40+ riders in 1 day.

Doing sessions is free.

Neither of those should cost $250 for 1 day like a road course would be.
2

The Shop

FreshTopEnd
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1/16/2019 12:41pm
I think the insurers will regulate the sport (by setting policy terms or declining to issue policies) before the government does, unless someone in government has a personal motivation to go after the sport.

Tracks should be run safely and the riders should bear the burden of that cost.
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Tarz483
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1/16/2019 12:58pm
Trading track time for riders flagging seems like a good idea, maybe print up some type of pass, flag for a day, and get a pass good for 1 practice day or 1 race entry.
Maybe something like that is already being done some places?
2
1/16/2019 1:05pm
This is and was terrible when it happened, but this article is not exactly correct. There is No "catapult jump" on the open practice track, Just some larger tables in 2014, also this happened in December of 14', would like to know the actual day. It would have more than likely been a week day. If it was a Friday or weekend there would have been no way that the parent that stated "The motocross track in their hometown of Lilesville, N.C., was too dangerous for Patrick, a beginner who had only gone out for rides along the mostly flat acres of trail in his backyard.", would have even allow their child to even suit up. You see kids from 50's to Super mini's on that open practice track, and it's very apparent that they know how to ride. These are the kids training for LL. There isn't a track in Lilesville, I'm guessing the father is talking about Dirt City in a neighboring town. That facility is perfect for the beginner.

I feel for the parents on this. I can't imagine losing anyone I care about much less my boys from a sport I love and support, but I won't let my boys ride at a place like ClubMX, because my boys haven't reached the level needed to truly need that type of facility yet. As a parent your main job is to error on the side of caution with whatever your kids are involved in. That track in 2014 had a longer run up to the table and you could see on top of it if looking far enough ahead, but once you got tot the front of it, it was blind. During the weekend there enough people to watch out and "flag" but on the weekday it's more scarce.

As far as going to the government that has no idea how to do much of anything to attempt to regulate these facilities would be a total death nail to riding areas. The trickle down effect would be closing OHV areas in National Parks and State Parks because then the Government would be liable for their own areas in the case of injury or deaths due to recreational areas.

Hope this father and family finds some piece.
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RichieW13
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1/16/2019 1:21pm
This is and was terrible when it happened, but this article is not exactly correct. There is No "catapult jump" on the open practice track, Just...
This is and was terrible when it happened, but this article is not exactly correct. There is No "catapult jump" on the open practice track, Just some larger tables in 2014, also this happened in December of 14', would like to know the actual day. It would have more than likely been a week day. If it was a Friday or weekend there would have been no way that the parent that stated "The motocross track in their hometown of Lilesville, N.C., was too dangerous for Patrick, a beginner who had only gone out for rides along the mostly flat acres of trail in his backyard.", would have even allow their child to even suit up. You see kids from 50's to Super mini's on that open practice track, and it's very apparent that they know how to ride. These are the kids training for LL. There isn't a track in Lilesville, I'm guessing the father is talking about Dirt City in a neighboring town. That facility is perfect for the beginner.

I feel for the parents on this. I can't imagine losing anyone I care about much less my boys from a sport I love and support, but I won't let my boys ride at a place like ClubMX, because my boys haven't reached the level needed to truly need that type of facility yet. As a parent your main job is to error on the side of caution with whatever your kids are involved in. That track in 2014 had a longer run up to the table and you could see on top of it if looking far enough ahead, but once you got tot the front of it, it was blind. During the weekend there enough people to watch out and "flag" but on the weekday it's more scarce.

As far as going to the government that has no idea how to do much of anything to attempt to regulate these facilities would be a total death nail to riding areas. The trickle down effect would be closing OHV areas in National Parks and State Parks because then the Government would be liable for their own areas in the case of injury or deaths due to recreational areas.

Hope this father and family finds some piece.
DonM
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1/16/2019 1:24pm
Ramrod wrote:
This is the dumbest logic. So if families have more than 1 kid than can afford to lose 1? I'm sure you didn't mean it that...
This is the dumbest logic. So if families have more than 1 kid than can afford to lose 1? I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.
Bry145 wrote:
My reasoning is it would be more heartbreaking for a parent to lose a child if they only have one. If a parent has 5 kids...
My reasoning is it would be more heartbreaking for a parent to lose a child if they only have one. If a parent has 5 kids and one is lost due to a tragedy, I believe it wouldn't be as bad.

If a resource is scarce it becomes more valuable. That's just basic economics.

I tried to be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt on your previous statement...But to put it bluntly you have no right to make a comment regarding the loss of a child unless you have lived it...your two comments are probably the dumbest comments I have ever read on vital...As I like to say, there is no such thing as common sense, if it were common everyone would have it...it's just sense and you sir have none!
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OldPro277
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1/16/2019 1:29pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Holy hell... Take your bullshit somewhere else. Your backward ass "logic" that women and lower birthrates is directly responsible for the decline of moto has so...
Holy hell... Take your bullshit somewhere else. Your backward ass "logic" that women and lower birthrates is directly responsible for the decline of moto has so many fallacies, it isn't even funny...

And the fact that you think parents with multiple kids would just "carry on" if one died. Going to go out on a limb and say that you are alone and have no children. If you do, I feel sorry for them.
Bry145 wrote:
If you can offer an arguement against mine, feel free to do so.

Oh wait. you're from Feministfornia.

Nevermind.


Bry-- can you at least change your "location" ?? Us fellow Pennsylvanians don't want to be associated with you and your crazy thought process. If you are saying these things just to get a rise, this is definitely the wrong subject to cast your line into.
3
JB 19
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1/16/2019 1:43pm
kaptkaos wrote:
I agree, that should not even be factored into the equation. However, I see a lot of issues here. 1. The minor child signed a waiver...
I agree, that should not even be factored into the equation.

However, I see a lot of issues here.

1. The minor child signed a waiver and the parent guardian did not- Neglect by track operator
2. Sending a mini out with full sized bikes- Neglect by track operator
3. The article wasnt clear if there were flaggers on the course or not.

I think for the track to have an insurance policy they must comply with many requirements even including grooming, prep flaggers, no mixed classes, waiver process, and a host of other safety factors.

This is a private facility and not a race facility so I dont know what they are required to provide, but I can tell you its going to be expensive to defend and the outcome may not be cheap either.

Yes moto is a dangerous sport for sure, but we need to be aware of the risks we take and the must be some due diligence on basic safety.

To me, the kid should never have been allowed to enter a track with a "catapult" knowing it was his first time, and especially during an open practice. IMHO minis and beginners should always have dedicated sessions.

Sad that the father did not know enough about the sport to do it safely and that no one at the track was there to guide them. Its a terrible tragedy and totally avoidable. We all are free to take the risks we know about, but we should also be informed of the risks.

No way a first timer should be in that risky situation. Not sure how to prevent it, but maybe it can be written on the waiver that you sign that beginners should never enter a track during an open session and to train the track workers better.
Well said. I feel terrible for this guy because he was likely trying to be a great father and took his son to the big professional facility in the area and in the process were helped into the worst possible situation.

This may be the most dangerous sport in existence.....It doesn't need more help becoming more dangerous.
2
1/16/2019 1:48pm Edited Date/Time 1/16/2019 1:51pm
This is terrible. A first time rider gets killed first day.dad tryin to be a great dad with no experience within the sport. Didn’t know the customs and courtesies and nobody explained them. Heart wrenching
CM_84
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1/16/2019 1:51pm
Bry145 wrote:
This is a tragedy for sure, but moto is an extremely dangerous sport. This also shows that smaller family sizes have a big downside if such...
This is a tragedy for sure, but moto is an extremely dangerous sport.

This also shows that smaller family sizes have a big downside if such a tragedy occurs. I come from a family of 3 kids, and if something happened to me my parents would still have a son and daughter to enjoy life with. That doesn't look to be the case here.

This is the dumbest post I have ever read on vital.
It even trumps your idiotic belief that feminism is bringing about a decline in moto.

Pull your head out of your ass.
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CM_84
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1/16/2019 1:54pm
I hate to see tracks getting sued, but it is absurd that so many tracks still have minis on track at the same time as big bikes.
Sadly I have read this sort of thing too much.

MX has and always will be extremely dangerous. But a simple change like splitting minis and big bikes can make it a lot safer
1
MotoMo165
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1/16/2019 1:57pm Edited Date/Time 1/16/2019 1:58pm
Ramrod wrote:
This is the dumbest logic. So if families have more than 1 kid than can afford to lose 1? I'm sure you didn't mean it that...
This is the dumbest logic. So if families have more than 1 kid than can afford to lose 1? I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.
Bry145 wrote:
My reasoning is it would be more heartbreaking for a parent to lose a child if they only have one. If a parent has 5 kids...
My reasoning is it would be more heartbreaking for a parent to lose a child if they only have one. If a parent has 5 kids and one is lost due to a tragedy, I believe it wouldn't be as bad.

If a resource is scarce it becomes more valuable. That's just basic economics.

This dumbass just compared humans (like your damn kid) to a valuable good. Basic economics hahaha stfu you’re probably the kind of person to say your dog is your kid
1
1/16/2019 2:52pm
After he has a kid dealing with stress from day 1 of pregnancy to birth to milestones in development......then maybe his opinion will surely change.
tkimb
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1/16/2019 2:54pm
It's interesting that only some races require an ambulance to be on site while others don't. Also that downhill mountain biking basically has better regulations. How many moto tracks can you just show up pay and ride? A lot have free practice, a lot have split practices (bikes or skill; if it's skill it's up to the rider to decide where he thinks he is, no one checks).

I went to a downhill mountain bike park and for the "bigger" runs with crazy jumps and stuff you have to do a skills test, and they have someone at the entrance for those trails making sure only the right people are getting on them. That alone is miles ahead of most MX tracks..
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WhipMeister
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1/16/2019 3:01pm
Some Vitardism on proud-as-a-peacock display in this thread.
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kijen
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1/16/2019 3:24pm
Sad story and feel for the family.

my son has had a few close calls, but as the father the safety of my son is my responsibility. I am not forced by anyone to buy a dirt bike for my kids, ride at any certain facility. Dirty as it sounds I think sometimes people sue to ease their own guilt.

Can tracks do better? Sure, but so can all of us.
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Tracktor
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1/16/2019 3:29pm
As a parent of riders & a propenent of track safety - In this day and age of information at your fingertips there is no excuse for being ill informed. The responsibilty lies with the parent in this case as in many others. He sent his kid out there without properly assessing the risks nor even attempting evidently to research them for himself?
Yeah I know it sounds callous but having two boys come up through the ranks it is my final decision on whether something is safe or not. Plenty of tracks allowed minis with big bikes and even though my boys had the speed to ride with bigger bikes I found the risk to be too great. So we simply didn't patronize these tracks. One of them being my personal favorite. I don't agree with open practice sessions at public tracks personally but understand the reasons for them. In the end it's the parent's choice to asses the risk and make the decision. Heartbreaking story all around. I am betting the other rider feels terrible also...............
GuyB
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1/16/2019 3:35pm
CozMan wrote:
I've never lost a kid before, and I have 3. However, my brother died from cancer which left me as an only child and my parents...
I've never lost a kid before, and I have 3. However, my brother died from cancer which left me as an only child and my parents sure as shit didn't sit down and say "Well, it's ok. We still have one kid left!"

I hate that this site bans people for stupid reasons, but our friend Bry145 should be given a vacation from the site so that he can go down to the cancer floor of his local children's hospital and tell a parent "Hey, it's ok man. You have two other kids. You know - it's fucking ECONOMICS."
Sorry, I'm a little late to the "party", but after viewing some of his posts here, and in other threads, your wish has been granted.
24
mxer613
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1/16/2019 3:37pm
CozMan wrote:
I've never lost a kid before, and I have 3. However, my brother died from cancer which left me as an only child and my parents...
I've never lost a kid before, and I have 3. However, my brother died from cancer which left me as an only child and my parents sure as shit didn't sit down and say "Well, it's ok. We still have one kid left!"

I hate that this site bans people for stupid reasons, but our friend Bry145 should be given a vacation from the site so that he can go down to the cancer floor of his local children's hospital and tell a parent "Hey, it's ok man. You have two other kids. You know - it's fucking ECONOMICS."
GuyB wrote:
Sorry, I'm a little late to the "party", but after viewing some of his posts here, and in other threads, your wish has been granted.
Thank you sir
1/16/2019 3:39pm
Go to your local tarmac race track with your sports bike and see if - They have Marshall's They scrutineer your bike They run grouped sessions...
Go to your local tarmac race track with your sports bike and see if -

They have Marshall's

They scrutineer your bike

They run grouped sessions based on pace

They have an ambulance on site during the track day


Now go to the local mx track - a circus by comparison, but, not for long by the looks of things
Yes correct. A lot more expensive to ride such a road circuit track day but many safeguards in place as well as control riders and no BS tolerance by staff.
1/16/2019 3:45pm
Go to your local tarmac race track with your sports bike and see if - They have Marshall's They scrutineer your bike They run grouped sessions...
Go to your local tarmac race track with your sports bike and see if -

They have Marshall's

They scrutineer your bike

They run grouped sessions based on pace

They have an ambulance on site during the track day


Now go to the local mx track - a circus by comparison, but, not for long by the looks of things
Titan1 wrote:
What does it cost to run a track day at a local road race course? (The think I heard that the Utah Motorsports campus-formerly Miller Motorsports...
What does it cost to run a track day at a local road race course? (The think I heard that the Utah Motorsports campus-formerly Miller Motorsports that hosted the national-charges $25/lap...I could be wrong...that's not my world.)

You willing to pay those kinds of prices to ride motocross on the weekends? Wanna kill motocross? Start charging tarmac track days prices to ride on the weekends.
One quick thought though most paved race courses run many less days so the cost per day will be higher. That’s in the northeast anyway. All over except maybe Jennings in florida have bike days, car days, kart days so there is competition for the track time.
Premix
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1/16/2019 3:53pm
Go to your local tarmac race track with your sports bike and see if - They have Marshall's They scrutineer your bike They run grouped sessions...
Go to your local tarmac race track with your sports bike and see if -

They have Marshall's

They scrutineer your bike

They run grouped sessions based on pace

They have an ambulance on site during the track day


Now go to the local mx track - a circus by comparison, but, not for long by the looks of things
Yes correct. A lot more expensive to ride such a road circuit track day but many safeguards in place as well as control riders and no...
Yes correct. A lot more expensive to ride such a road circuit track day but many safeguards in place as well as control riders and no BS tolerance by staff.
Ran a few track days during my break from MX in the mid 00’s. All 3 that I went to had tech inspections, riding meetings, safety explanations, and even offered a session behind an instructor before they sent us all out in skill groups. Very legit, although costly, part of me wishes I would of stuck with it.

Meanwhile Moto practice days, are complete chaos, save for a few tracks I’ve been too.

Wouldn’t it be crazy if we had an organization that had the best interest of motorcycle racing in mind, had some skin in making practice days safer, worked with the tracks to develop a set of regulations and standards......oh wait.....AMA, you there?

A few AMA higher ups read these forums, hopefully someone chimes in.
1/16/2019 4:00pm
Bry145 wrote:
This is a tragedy for sure, but moto is an extremely dangerous sport. This also shows that smaller family sizes have a big downside if such...
This is a tragedy for sure, but moto is an extremely dangerous sport.

This also shows that smaller family sizes have a big downside if such a tragedy occurs. I come from a family of 3 kids, and if something happened to me my parents would still have a son and daughter to enjoy life with. That doesn't look to be the case here.

1 or 9 kids mean the same, measure your shit talk bro WTF
1/16/2019 4:02pm
kb228 wrote:
I think requiring flaggers and requiring riders’ practices to be split into sessions of at least big bikes and little bikes is a good measure from...
I think requiring flaggers and requiring riders’ practices to be split into sessions of at least big bikes and little bikes is a good measure from a legal standpoint.
is that not policed over there?

here it is easy.

classes:
kids
a
b

end of story - if A are seen on track with B they get pulled ad vice versa, how to identify? Skills and especially jumps, pretty easy.
RichieW13
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1/16/2019 4:02pm
Go to your local tarmac race track with your sports bike and see if - They have Marshall's They scrutineer your bike They run grouped sessions...
Go to your local tarmac race track with your sports bike and see if -

They have Marshall's

They scrutineer your bike

They run grouped sessions based on pace

They have an ambulance on site during the track day


Now go to the local mx track - a circus by comparison, but, not for long by the looks of things
Yes correct. A lot more expensive to ride such a road circuit track day but many safeguards in place as well as control riders and no...
Yes correct. A lot more expensive to ride such a road circuit track day but many safeguards in place as well as control riders and no BS tolerance by staff.
Premix wrote:
Ran a few track days during my break from MX in the mid 00’s. All 3 that I went to had tech inspections, riding meetings, safety...
Ran a few track days during my break from MX in the mid 00’s. All 3 that I went to had tech inspections, riding meetings, safety explanations, and even offered a session behind an instructor before they sent us all out in skill groups. Very legit, although costly, part of me wishes I would of stuck with it.

Meanwhile Moto practice days, are complete chaos, save for a few tracks I’ve been too.

Wouldn’t it be crazy if we had an organization that had the best interest of motorcycle racing in mind, had some skin in making practice days safer, worked with the tracks to develop a set of regulations and standards......oh wait.....AMA, you there?

A few AMA higher ups read these forums, hopefully someone chimes in.
AMA has regulations and standards for safety. But they have no ability to force a private track to use their standards - unless that track wants to purchase its liability insurance through AMA.

It would require riders demanding their tracks to be AMA sanctioned for practices and racing.
Indy mxer
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1/16/2019 4:04pm Edited Date/Time 1/16/2019 4:05pm
This is such a sad story and the worst part is, it was preventable.

We promote a few races a year here in Southern IN and have for many years. Used to do a lot more.
We have NEVER let 65's and 85's out with big bikes primarily for safety reasons. Plus as you can see, it's a good way to get sued!
The AMA will warn you about this when you go to risk management seminars. Unfortunately, to many promoters get lazy and don't do it. It does take extra work and you have to constantly monitor it.
I rode at WW in Jacksonville about 2 weeks ago and thankfully they split the classes nicely. Cudo's to them. A couple days later I rode Waldo and they did not. I'm surprised how many promoters are willing to take the risk. Including my favorite track here.

I'm usually the guy letting the riders out at our practices and races. I don't know how many times I've got the "my son is fast and likes to ride with the big bikes. Can he go out with them?". I try to say no nicely, then try to explain to them why he can't. I also tell them I'm not willing to risk everything in own by getting hit with a lawsuit. They usually don't like my answer but that's how we roll. Plus, I would never forgive myself if a rider on a mini got hit by a big bike and got hurt

Here's how we do it. It's not perfect but it's worked pretty well for us over the years.
50cc
65 and 85
C&D riders
A&B riders.
1
APLMAN99
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1/16/2019 4:22pm
Ramrod wrote:
This is the dumbest logic. So if families have more than 1 kid than can afford to lose 1? I'm sure you didn't mean it that...
This is the dumbest logic. So if families have more than 1 kid than can afford to lose 1? I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.
Bry145 wrote:
My reasoning is it would be more heartbreaking for a parent to lose a child if they only have one. If a parent has 5 kids...
My reasoning is it would be more heartbreaking for a parent to lose a child if they only have one. If a parent has 5 kids and one is lost due to a tragedy, I believe it wouldn't be as bad.

If a resource is scarce it becomes more valuable. That's just basic economics.


5
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