Posts
1283
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
Edited Date/Time
1/27/2012 2:39pm
I know most of you guys could care less about Am racing, but there are a few folks here with ties to the AM world, I would like your opinions.
In light of another rider getting caught cheating last weekend at a local NC race, I feel strongly that we need to change the way we are currently handling this issue at AMA races. In most instances when a rider or his parents put their neck on the line to expose someone who is cheat, that rider rarely ever gets any further penalty than just a DQ for the event. The AMA allows referees to make a recommendation for what they feel a penalty should be but the precedent has just been probation or in many cases no penalty at all. It creates a disincentive for anyone to protest because they rarely get anything out of it. I think that riders have every right to protest someone, it is how the system works. Right or wrong, the protester is not the bad guy. If you are protested and found to be legal, you are not the bad guy either. The bad guy is the guy who feels it is more important for his son to win, than it is to follow the rules.
Another thing that drives me up a wall is all of the people accusing everyone else of cheating, but never putting up the money to protest. I have a theory about those people, they don’t really want to know. They can feel better about their rider if they just assume everyone else is cheating. They would rather spend big bucks on a big cheater motor than spend the $200 to find out that they just might be getting beat by a legal motor. After the first protest last weekend, one of the parents said I should tear down the whole top 5. I gave that parent the option to protest the others in the top 5 and even gave him the option to measure Matt’s bike for free. Despite the fact that he and his wife called me a cheater over and over, they declined to take me up on my offer to tear down Matt’s bikes for free. I even offered to let him be the one who measured them. He declined, said he knew we were cheating, and said he would catch us on his terms. He didn’t really want to know.
So, based on the precedent set over the last three years, my recommendation for the rider caught was 1 year of probation. Did I want to suggest more? Yeah, I did, as evidenced by the rule I proposed last year to make it a mandatory 6 month suspension for getting caught running a motor over the legal limit, I feel very strongly on the subject. The problem is that that type of punishment is never recommended and the parent was operating under the assumption that probation was all that would happen. To do more would have been just making an example out of the kid and I didn’t think that was the right thing to do.
Last year I made the following proposal to the AMA for a rule change:
For riders caught competing on a bike with a displacement that exceeds the class limit the following penalties MUST be enforced:
1st offense rider torn down and found to be illegal - Disqualification from all classes in the event where the displacement rule was broken and a 6 month suspension from AMA competition.
2nd offense rider torn down and found to be illegal - Disqualification from all classes in the event where the displacement rule was broken and a 1 year suspension from AMA competition.
3rd offense - Disqualification from all classes in the event where the displacement rule was broken and a 3 year suspension from AMA competition.
Reason:
There is currently no incentive not to cheat. Riders who get caught with engines over the displacement limit face little or no penalties. There are several riders caught with engines over the displacement limit for their class at regional qualifiers and are still going to LLs in other classes Harsh penalties will create a strong disincentive to cheat.
I didn’t bother to contact the members of the MX committee as I thought it would be a no brainer that it would pass. The proposal was defeated in committee. I will be proposing some form of this rule again and I will be there to argue its merits. What I need is everyone’s input. I will collect the input and put it together with the package I send in with the proposed rules. Here is my rational for the change:
1. Take it out of the local referees hands. No local referee wants to be the guy who suspends a kid for 6 months.
2. Harsh penalties will actually act as a deterrent. If I was facing a 6 month suspension, I would certainly think twice.
3. Have a more consistent system of punishment in place for these types of infractions.
Your thoughts?
Mike
In light of another rider getting caught cheating last weekend at a local NC race, I feel strongly that we need to change the way we are currently handling this issue at AMA races. In most instances when a rider or his parents put their neck on the line to expose someone who is cheat, that rider rarely ever gets any further penalty than just a DQ for the event. The AMA allows referees to make a recommendation for what they feel a penalty should be but the precedent has just been probation or in many cases no penalty at all. It creates a disincentive for anyone to protest because they rarely get anything out of it. I think that riders have every right to protest someone, it is how the system works. Right or wrong, the protester is not the bad guy. If you are protested and found to be legal, you are not the bad guy either. The bad guy is the guy who feels it is more important for his son to win, than it is to follow the rules.
Another thing that drives me up a wall is all of the people accusing everyone else of cheating, but never putting up the money to protest. I have a theory about those people, they don’t really want to know. They can feel better about their rider if they just assume everyone else is cheating. They would rather spend big bucks on a big cheater motor than spend the $200 to find out that they just might be getting beat by a legal motor. After the first protest last weekend, one of the parents said I should tear down the whole top 5. I gave that parent the option to protest the others in the top 5 and even gave him the option to measure Matt’s bike for free. Despite the fact that he and his wife called me a cheater over and over, they declined to take me up on my offer to tear down Matt’s bikes for free. I even offered to let him be the one who measured them. He declined, said he knew we were cheating, and said he would catch us on his terms. He didn’t really want to know.
So, based on the precedent set over the last three years, my recommendation for the rider caught was 1 year of probation. Did I want to suggest more? Yeah, I did, as evidenced by the rule I proposed last year to make it a mandatory 6 month suspension for getting caught running a motor over the legal limit, I feel very strongly on the subject. The problem is that that type of punishment is never recommended and the parent was operating under the assumption that probation was all that would happen. To do more would have been just making an example out of the kid and I didn’t think that was the right thing to do.
Last year I made the following proposal to the AMA for a rule change:
For riders caught competing on a bike with a displacement that exceeds the class limit the following penalties MUST be enforced:
1st offense rider torn down and found to be illegal - Disqualification from all classes in the event where the displacement rule was broken and a 6 month suspension from AMA competition.
2nd offense rider torn down and found to be illegal - Disqualification from all classes in the event where the displacement rule was broken and a 1 year suspension from AMA competition.
3rd offense - Disqualification from all classes in the event where the displacement rule was broken and a 3 year suspension from AMA competition.
Reason:
There is currently no incentive not to cheat. Riders who get caught with engines over the displacement limit face little or no penalties. There are several riders caught with engines over the displacement limit for their class at regional qualifiers and are still going to LLs in other classes Harsh penalties will create a strong disincentive to cheat.
I didn’t bother to contact the members of the MX committee as I thought it would be a no brainer that it would pass. The proposal was defeated in committee. I will be proposing some form of this rule again and I will be there to argue its merits. What I need is everyone’s input. I will collect the input and put it together with the package I send in with the proposed rules. Here is my rational for the change:
1. Take it out of the local referees hands. No local referee wants to be the guy who suspends a kid for 6 months.
2. Harsh penalties will actually act as a deterrent. If I was facing a 6 month suspension, I would certainly think twice.
3. Have a more consistent system of punishment in place for these types of infractions.
Your thoughts?
Mike
The Shop
Money is the main one. Remove all and any incentives, rewards, payback in contingency credit cards. There is NOTHING fair about amateur motocross. The amount of families living off deals, factory dollars disguised as support clothing companies etc at any large national is pretty large. So the fact of calling it Amateur is saying the same about the AMA - they protect our rights to ride.
it is the ugly side of MX. Nothing like seeing a father berate his child for not jumping a jump or winning or even making the main event. Makes Little league dad look like a saint.
That is why there is, and always will be cheating. Cold hard cash!
2..who would protest a cheater at an am race for a trophy?
1. A lot
2. A lot
Why cheat? I always found it quite funny that people get more irate at those people that actually do protest AND WIN the protest.....meaning, they called out a cheater and made it stick.
Shouldn't people be mad at the cheater instead?
Thanks god my kids only do this for fun.
amateur racing is far from what you may remember.
It has grown into basic factory status with their own magazines, full factory rigs and the top amateurs usually are on par with the top 10 National riders(less the experience).
The economy has brought it down a couple of notches but there are plenty of 300,000 to 500,000 rigs in the pits.
The contingency and other $'s are substancial and many of the parents are living off of what their amateur child makes.
Its about the $'s not the plastic.
Alan Gerkey
As for Mike's post, I would just be happy if the AMA came up with a clear penalty structure and stood behind their rules and actually enforced them. That would be a good place to start.
CH
Pit Row
It's basically ego driving all this crap. Who in their right mind would go home satisfied with a win that was aided by cheating?
I've seen all kinds of ugly crap at the races. The police got called at a race last year because somebody took something wrong. There was a big dust up here in District 7 recently concerning riders' families and friends antagonizing and bullying each other over incidents on the track. And it seems more and more-- it's not the riders as much as their entourage going psycho.
To me, any parent screaming at his kid (or anybody else) at a youth amateur race might as well have "idiot" across his forehead.
Too many times we took a complaint/protest/etc to the AMA, only to have them waffle on the penalty. It didn't matter who it was in the past 15 years or so. Found it really aggravating to have the AMA often take the word of the rider over the word of the ref, the promoter, and assorted witnesses.
Another device was devoloped by a well known dirt track tuner, called a "huffer", where only the flywheel cover and valve cover need to be removed, to determine TDC, then the huffer is screwed into the spark plug hole. Rotate the motor 360 degrees , and the guage on the device will tell you just what displacement of said engine is.
You made some really good points and I feel that your rule ideas are very good. What is funny about the whole idea though is that you wrote to the AMA with the assumption that :
1) they give a damn
and
2) they will actually do something
The AMA is crap and from what I have seen does not seem to care about fixing any problems or making things any better. As an "organized" sport motocross is a joke. I have seen peewee football programs that are managed better.
Thanks for the great feedback.
lets play it this way.
I can't afford a new bike. I go out and buy a great little bike for the kid, it's lets say a "king" cobra. the bike hauls and is fun to ride, my kid only practices and rarely races but is an exceptional rider.
we do to chicken licks raceway, and the kid just stomps teh competition. Bike seems to be faster then the other kids, but he is a really good rider.
We get protested.
Tore down and much to my surprise junior is riding a bike which had been bored or reworked and is not legal for the class. NOt only is my kid disqualified but i am pissed because I didn't know.
your rules leaves no options for a case like that. for that reason i can't support a rule that is absolute. However i would support having more teeth in the rules and making them more enforceable.
by the way that little story which sounds like it couldn't happen can happen real easy.
as a congress delegate who sits on that committee I would look at things that way, since as a referee of my own race events, absolute rules are not good things.
I bet you will find the "new" guy at AmA will be much more strict then the ones we have had in the past........at least that is my opinion in dealing with him lately..........
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