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1033
Joined
12/19/2009
Location
Westfield, MA
US
hellion
9/27/2011 9:08am
9/27/2011 9:08am
Edited Date/Time
1/27/2012 12:01pm
Steve, another great show last night (Pulpmx podcast to the uninitiated). Great guests with much insight and knowledge about our sport. Always a highlight of my week.
There was a caller this show as there has been a few of lately, who wanted to make the point that four strokes were much more expensive than two strokes and that they are killing our sport.
Steve then gave his argument that I've also heard before, that a 450 will cost about $800 more to buy and then be about equal over it's life span as for top ends etc.
I have to point out a couple of flaws in your theory Steve, as I've heard you give this same argument to Ping and I really think you are missing the point.
First, the only real company to make a modern two stroke that we can use for comparison is KTM. The retail price difference between a 250 two stroke and 450SXF is closer to two grand than it is 800. But even still these are not the bikes that we should be comparing. 450's are great bikes, they are like modern, better versions of the 500's we used to race. They make it possible for guys who could never ride a 500 safely to ride a true open bike. Whether that's good or not is also debatable.
Second and more importantly, is that you are focusing on the 450. The 450 is not the problem. It's in the smaller classes where cost is wildly out of control. Both cost to modify and cost to maintain are much greater when you compare a 125/150 to the more complicated 250f. Plus, many clubs now allow 250 two strokes in the tiddler class which are even more reliable than either the 125/150 or the 250f, all the while making more power and being easier and cheaper to maintain. I have heard you argue this point and I really think you need to get a new calculator because yours is either broken or you forgot to add something into your equation. Something like LABOR maybe. Most simpletons can rebuild a two stroke with their eyes closed, yet many people with years and years of racing and rebuilding cannot tackle a four stroke engine rebuild. Let alone even adjust their own valves.
Add to all this the fact that the two stroke disappearing leaves limited options for kids moving up from 85's than to hop on a 38 horsepower 225 pound motorcyle. A motorcycle which might make it too easy to go too fast.
So Steve, I think you need to start looking at this debate from the other side. You, like me, are an old MXer. You have the money to ride what you want and probably not nearly enough time to do it. That's a perfect reason to own and support owning a four stroke. I think, that for the health and future of our sport you should look at it from the side of a ten year old kid. A kid who loves nothing more than riding but is getting to big for his 85. He knows he should get a 125/150 but doesn't have a Yamaha or KTM dealer close by. Not only that, but if he does get a 125/150, he knows he'll not have a chance at a good holeshot for a long time and the wins will be harder to come by. Then again, maybe he could beg Grandpa and Grandma for some extra dough and get the 250f. Sure, maybe he'll blow it up and they might help him out the first time, but do you think they'll be there when 2000 dollar rebuild tabs keep rolling in.
This is where it's at Steve. The two stroke is making a comeback because it has to. You cannot help but notice it, it's gaining momentum all the time. You can make a difference with your voice and that's all I'm asking you to do.
There was a caller this show as there has been a few of lately, who wanted to make the point that four strokes were much more expensive than two strokes and that they are killing our sport.
Steve then gave his argument that I've also heard before, that a 450 will cost about $800 more to buy and then be about equal over it's life span as for top ends etc.
I have to point out a couple of flaws in your theory Steve, as I've heard you give this same argument to Ping and I really think you are missing the point.
First, the only real company to make a modern two stroke that we can use for comparison is KTM. The retail price difference between a 250 two stroke and 450SXF is closer to two grand than it is 800. But even still these are not the bikes that we should be comparing. 450's are great bikes, they are like modern, better versions of the 500's we used to race. They make it possible for guys who could never ride a 500 safely to ride a true open bike. Whether that's good or not is also debatable.
Second and more importantly, is that you are focusing on the 450. The 450 is not the problem. It's in the smaller classes where cost is wildly out of control. Both cost to modify and cost to maintain are much greater when you compare a 125/150 to the more complicated 250f. Plus, many clubs now allow 250 two strokes in the tiddler class which are even more reliable than either the 125/150 or the 250f, all the while making more power and being easier and cheaper to maintain. I have heard you argue this point and I really think you need to get a new calculator because yours is either broken or you forgot to add something into your equation. Something like LABOR maybe. Most simpletons can rebuild a two stroke with their eyes closed, yet many people with years and years of racing and rebuilding cannot tackle a four stroke engine rebuild. Let alone even adjust their own valves.
Add to all this the fact that the two stroke disappearing leaves limited options for kids moving up from 85's than to hop on a 38 horsepower 225 pound motorcyle. A motorcycle which might make it too easy to go too fast.
So Steve, I think you need to start looking at this debate from the other side. You, like me, are an old MXer. You have the money to ride what you want and probably not nearly enough time to do it. That's a perfect reason to own and support owning a four stroke. I think, that for the health and future of our sport you should look at it from the side of a ten year old kid. A kid who loves nothing more than riding but is getting to big for his 85. He knows he should get a 125/150 but doesn't have a Yamaha or KTM dealer close by. Not only that, but if he does get a 125/150, he knows he'll not have a chance at a good holeshot for a long time and the wins will be harder to come by. Then again, maybe he could beg Grandpa and Grandma for some extra dough and get the 250f. Sure, maybe he'll blow it up and they might help him out the first time, but do you think they'll be there when 2000 dollar rebuild tabs keep rolling in.
This is where it's at Steve. The two stroke is making a comeback because it has to. You cannot help but notice it, it's gaining momentum all the time. You can make a difference with your voice and that's all I'm asking you to do.
But why dumgeon? He simply lays out a well thought out argument, even if you don't want to read about it.
The Shop
http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Ping-for-President,1223923
Its too the point, that alot of people are ready so over it they never want to hear a 2s again. You guys and your agenda are to the point you are hurting your cause.
MX is still the cheapest form of motorsport you can be in.
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You'd better watch out!
There may be dogs about
I looked over Jordan, and I've seen
Things are not what they seem.
That's what you get for pretending the danger's not real.
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.
What a surprise!
A look of terminal shock in your eyes.
Now things are really what they seem.
No, this is not a bad dream.
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to die
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives He releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication
Master the art of Karate,
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.
Bleating and babbling we fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
Have you heard the news?
The dogs are dead!
You better stay home
And do as you're told.
Get out of the road if you want to grow old.
That said, maybe I can't talk since I did buy a new yz (which is the same since 05 minus the suspension and little tid bits). I bought it because it was 'the' available 2stroke 250 in these parts when I wanted to buy (that and the fact I think it is one of the best bikes ever built IMO). If I had more money to burn I probably should have/would have bought a TM or even KTM.
And, I know this topic is getting old around here. I'm pretty sick of it myself, especially how it always goes so far off tangent. But, it is being talked about more frequently on Pulp and DMXS, and we are seeing more stuff about it in print magazines too. So, when one of the most prolific figures in our media has something wrong I can't help want to correct it.
To anyone who thinks these posts are an attack on four strokes they are not. Four strokes are fine, it's two strokes that just need a fair shake both in the media and in the rules of competition. I'd love to see a 250cc shootout that included a YZ250 and KTM 250SX, that would be fair. Or universal rules allowing all 250's in the same class. That's all, no need to get your panties in a bunch, Jeez.
I believe in equality and understanding. But I don't think it's necessary to force a lifestyle upon everyone. What is done behind closed doors (or on the track) is none of my business. Those who agree will follow.
We are discussing costs, not the mechanical skills of Matthes.
Pit Row
A lot of these 2 vs 4 threads wouldn't come up if both sides stuck to real world numbers and didn't try to slant them.
This argument is so dumb, why does one side have to be the devil and there is no middle ground with this. Can't you just be a guy that likes two-strokes, likes four-strokes and sees the good and bad in both. I did not know that a KTM 250 is 2K cheaper than the 450, I know Yamaha is only 800 bucks so that begs the question, why would ANYONE buy a YZ250 if a KTM is so much cheaper?
Anyways, my points about the maintenance are absolutely true. I have buddies that have thumpers that have last forever and I have buddies who's two-strokes blew up all the time (for different reasons). Look I was a factory mechanic for two teams and I consider myself a very average mechanic (ask anyone who I worked with!) but the manuals are incredibly exhaustive and informative on how to look after your four-stroke.
I love the technology in the new four-strokes and hated how the two-strokes were becoming the same thing year after year. But then again the people who say there isn't a great transition from an 80 to a 250F are absolutely right as well. There's good and bad points to each people.
Excuse me while I go outside now to get lynched by a bunch of people with reed cages for necklaces.
Duck the powervalves Steve
I love dirtbikes but I race a 4-stroke. Everybody RIDE ON !!!
What is a good debate is- What if the AMA was a little smarter when they made the rule about a 550cc thumper displacement and only made it 350? Would we be in the four-stroke age that we're now in? Congrats to Yamaha for looking at the rule and building a bad-ass bike but what if?
Post a reply to: Calling Out Matthes