Calling Out Matthes

hellion
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9/27/2011 9:08am Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:01pm
Steve, another great show last night (Pulpmx podcast to the uninitiated). Great guests with much insight and knowledge about our sport. Always a highlight of my week.

There was a caller this show as there has been a few of lately, who wanted to make the point that four strokes were much more expensive than two strokes and that they are killing our sport.

Steve then gave his argument that I've also heard before, that a 450 will cost about $800 more to buy and then be about equal over it's life span as for top ends etc.

I have to point out a couple of flaws in your theory Steve, as I've heard you give this same argument to Ping and I really think you are missing the point.

First, the only real company to make a modern two stroke that we can use for comparison is KTM. The retail price difference between a 250 two stroke and 450SXF is closer to two grand than it is 800. But even still these are not the bikes that we should be comparing. 450's are great bikes, they are like modern, better versions of the 500's we used to race. They make it possible for guys who could never ride a 500 safely to ride a true open bike. Whether that's good or not is also debatable.

Second and more importantly, is that you are focusing on the 450. The 450 is not the problem. It's in the smaller classes where cost is wildly out of control. Both cost to modify and cost to maintain are much greater when you compare a 125/150 to the more complicated 250f. Plus, many clubs now allow 250 two strokes in the tiddler class which are even more reliable than either the 125/150 or the 250f, all the while making more power and being easier and cheaper to maintain. I have heard you argue this point and I really think you need to get a new calculator because yours is either broken or you forgot to add something into your equation. Something like LABOR maybe. Most simpletons can rebuild a two stroke with their eyes closed, yet many people with years and years of racing and rebuilding cannot tackle a four stroke engine rebuild. Let alone even adjust their own valves.

Add to all this the fact that the two stroke disappearing leaves limited options for kids moving up from 85's than to hop on a 38 horsepower 225 pound motorcyle. A motorcycle which might make it too easy to go too fast.

So Steve, I think you need to start looking at this debate from the other side. You, like me, are an old MXer. You have the money to ride what you want and probably not nearly enough time to do it. That's a perfect reason to own and support owning a four stroke. I think, that for the health and future of our sport you should look at it from the side of a ten year old kid. A kid who loves nothing more than riding but is getting to big for his 85. He knows he should get a 125/150 but doesn't have a Yamaha or KTM dealer close by. Not only that, but if he does get a 125/150, he knows he'll not have a chance at a good holeshot for a long time and the wins will be harder to come by. Then again, maybe he could beg Grandpa and Grandma for some extra dough and get the 250f. Sure, maybe he'll blow it up and they might help him out the first time, but do you think they'll be there when 2000 dollar rebuild tabs keep rolling in.

This is where it's at Steve. The two stroke is making a comeback because it has to. You cannot help but notice it, it's gaining momentum all the time. You can make a difference with your voice and that's all I'm asking you to do.
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SL91
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9/27/2011 9:16am
God, I wish you 2-stroke guys would get over it already. I love smokers myself, but what's the point of pounding your head against the wall?
Rewindcaz
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9/27/2011 9:20am
SL91 wrote:
God, I wish you 2-stroke guys would get over it already. I love smokers myself, but what's the point of pounding your head against the wall?
x2 -- I love the enthusiasm to keep 2-strokes alive, but my god. Some of you need to chill out about it. I agreed with Matthes last night.
SPYGUY
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9/27/2011 9:23am
Dumgeon
lucero10x
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9/27/2011 9:28am
I can't believe how many guys are on 2 strokes compared to a couple years ago. Sounds like the avg. joe gets it. Who cares if the moto journalists don't?


But why dumgeon? He simply lays out a well thought out argument, even if you don't want to read about it.

The Shop

Cygnus
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9/27/2011 9:37am
seth505
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9/27/2011 10:00am Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 10:01am
Like it or not, this topic has a lot to do with the present/future state of the sport. Ya, this general topic gets brought up a lot but he started a thread with a specific topic, which is in reference to things Matthes said. I think it is a great thread/worthy of moto talk and if Matthes responds then even better. Matthes has the choice to respond to this in depth, dismiss it or even make fun of it....but it is still moto worthy.
9/27/2011 10:01am
all i know is this. its gotten to the point of head up ass beliggerence where any reasonable point is dismissed, that you 2s forever guys are sounding more like politicians and Palin is leading the way.

Its too the point, that alot of people are ready so over it they never want to hear a 2s again. You guys and your agenda are to the point you are hurting your cause.
9/27/2011 10:02am
also, let me point out 1 thing.... and this will be dismissed also.

MX is still the cheapest form of motorsport you can be in.
ML512
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9/27/2011 10:05am
also, let me point out 1 thing.... and this will be dismissed also.

MX is still the cheapest form of motorsport you can be in.
Shhhh... they dont listen to the facts around here....
jeffro503
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9/27/2011 10:11am
seth505 wrote:
Like it or not, this topic has a lot to do with the present/future state of the sport. Ya, this general topic gets brought up a...
Like it or not, this topic has a lot to do with the present/future state of the sport. Ya, this general topic gets brought up a lot but he started a thread with a specific topic, which is in reference to things Matthes said. I think it is a great thread/worthy of moto talk and if Matthes responds then even better. Matthes has the choice to respond to this in depth, dismiss it or even make fun of it....but it is still moto worthy.
X2. The 2 stroke arguments will never go away....and they shouldn't. If more than ever , with the economy the way it is now , and cheaper up-keep of a 2 stroke gets more people to the track.....then I'm all for it. This is a great thread , and Hellion makes some awesome points.
ktm125
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9/27/2011 10:14am
Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You'd better watch out!
There may be dogs about
I looked over Jordan, and I've seen
Things are not what they seem.

That's what you get for pretending the danger's not real.
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.
What a surprise!
A look of terminal shock in your eyes.
Now things are really what they seem.
No, this is not a bad dream.

The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to die
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives He releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication
Master the art of Karate,
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.

Bleating and babbling we fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

Have you heard the news?
The dogs are dead!
You better stay home
And do as you're told.
Get out of the road if you want to grow old.
Shawn142
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9/27/2011 10:18am Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 10:19am
seth505 wrote:
Like it or not, this topic has a lot to do with the present/future state of the sport. Ya, this general topic gets brought up a...
Like it or not, this topic has a lot to do with the present/future state of the sport. Ya, this general topic gets brought up a lot but he started a thread with a specific topic, which is in reference to things Matthes said. I think it is a great thread/worthy of moto talk and if Matthes responds then even better. Matthes has the choice to respond to this in depth, dismiss it or even make fun of it....but it is still moto worthy.
jeffro503 wrote:
X2. The 2 stroke arguments will never go away....and they shouldn't. If more than ever , with the economy the way it is now , and...
X2. The 2 stroke arguments will never go away....and they shouldn't. If more than ever , with the economy the way it is now , and cheaper up-keep of a 2 stroke gets more people to the track.....then I'm all for it. This is a great thread , and Hellion makes some awesome points.
You know I don't care if it goes away or not, a cheaper alternative in a down economy shouldn't be ignored. But why oh why are these 2-stroke goofballs bringing this argument here?? Do I or anyone else who frequents this board look like a Japanese OEM? Are you going to convince them to suddenly make 2-strokes again with long winded downward spiraling debates against other guys who just ride? Or better yet how about support the Euro OEMs that are currently developing and producing 2-strokes?? I haven't seen a single guy on here in the 2-stroke taliban post up pics of their brand new TM or Husky. Just a rat trap cragslist find they plan on "restoring".
seth505
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9/27/2011 10:31am
Hey, my yz 250 is far from a rat trap! haha Pretty sure I'd get good money for it if I decided to sell Smile

That said, maybe I can't talk since I did buy a new yz (which is the same since 05 minus the suspension and little tid bits). I bought it because it was 'the' available 2stroke 250 in these parts when I wanted to buy (that and the fact I think it is one of the best bikes ever built IMO). If I had more money to burn I probably should have/would have bought a TM or even KTM.
hellion
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9/27/2011 10:33am Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 10:34am
seth505 wrote:
Like it or not, this topic has a lot to do with the present/future state of the sport. Ya, this general topic gets brought up a...
Like it or not, this topic has a lot to do with the present/future state of the sport. Ya, this general topic gets brought up a lot but he started a thread with a specific topic, which is in reference to things Matthes said. I think it is a great thread/worthy of moto talk and if Matthes responds then even better. Matthes has the choice to respond to this in depth, dismiss it or even make fun of it....but it is still moto worthy.
jeffro503 wrote:
X2. The 2 stroke arguments will never go away....and they shouldn't. If more than ever , with the economy the way it is now , and...
X2. The 2 stroke arguments will never go away....and they shouldn't. If more than ever , with the economy the way it is now , and cheaper up-keep of a 2 stroke gets more people to the track.....then I'm all for it. This is a great thread , and Hellion makes some awesome points.
Shawn142 wrote:
You know I don't care if it goes away or not, a cheaper alternative in a down economy shouldn't be ignored. But why oh why are...
You know I don't care if it goes away or not, a cheaper alternative in a down economy shouldn't be ignored. But why oh why are these 2-stroke goofballs bringing this argument here?? Do I or anyone else who frequents this board look like a Japanese OEM? Are you going to convince them to suddenly make 2-strokes again with long winded downward spiraling debates against other guys who just ride? Or better yet how about support the Euro OEMs that are currently developing and producing 2-strokes?? I haven't seen a single guy on here in the 2-stroke taliban post up pics of their brand new TM or Husky. Just a rat trap cragslist find they plan on "restoring".
I don't have a brand new TM or Husky, but I do have a 12' 250SX.

And, I know this topic is getting old around here. I'm pretty sick of it myself, especially how it always goes so far off tangent. But, it is being talked about more frequently on Pulp and DMXS, and we are seeing more stuff about it in print magazines too. So, when one of the most prolific figures in our media has something wrong I can't help want to correct it.

To anyone who thinks these posts are an attack on four strokes they are not. Four strokes are fine, it's two strokes that just need a fair shake both in the media and in the rules of competition. I'd love to see a 250cc shootout that included a YZ250 and KTM 250SX, that would be fair. Or universal rules allowing all 250's in the same class. That's all, no need to get your panties in a bunch, Jeez.
JLong
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9/27/2011 10:33am
The two-stroke argument reminds of the Gay movement.

I believe in equality and understanding. But I don't think it's necessary to force a lifestyle upon everyone. What is done behind closed doors (or on the track) is none of my business. Those who agree will follow.
FreshTopEnd
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9/27/2011 10:39am
hellion wrote:
Steve, another great show last night (Pulpmx podcast to the uninitiated). Great guests with much insight and knowledge about our sport. Always a highlight of my...
Steve, another great show last night (Pulpmx podcast to the uninitiated). Great guests with much insight and knowledge about our sport. Always a highlight of my week.

There was a caller this show as there has been a few of lately, who wanted to make the point that four strokes were much more expensive than two strokes and that they are killing our sport.

Steve then gave his argument that I've also heard before, that a 450 will cost about $800 more to buy and then be about equal over it's life span as for top ends etc.

I have to point out a couple of flaws in your theory Steve, as I've heard you give this same argument to Ping and I really think you are missing the point.

First, the only real company to make a modern two stroke that we can use for comparison is KTM. The retail price difference between a 250 two stroke and 450SXF is closer to two grand than it is 800. But even still these are not the bikes that we should be comparing. 450's are great bikes, they are like modern, better versions of the 500's we used to race. They make it possible for guys who could never ride a 500 safely to ride a true open bike. Whether that's good or not is also debatable.

Second and more importantly, is that you are focusing on the 450. The 450 is not the problem. It's in the smaller classes where cost is wildly out of control. Both cost to modify and cost to maintain are much greater when you compare a 125/150 to the more complicated 250f. Plus, many clubs now allow 250 two strokes in the tiddler class which are even more reliable than either the 125/150 or the 250f, all the while making more power and being easier and cheaper to maintain. I have heard you argue this point and I really think you need to get a new calculator because yours is either broken or you forgot to add something into your equation. Something like LABOR maybe. Most simpletons can rebuild a two stroke with their eyes closed, yet many people with years and years of racing and rebuilding cannot tackle a four stroke engine rebuild. Let alone even adjust their own valves.

Add to all this the fact that the two stroke disappearing leaves limited options for kids moving up from 85's than to hop on a 38 horsepower 225 pound motorcyle. A motorcycle which might make it too easy to go too fast.

So Steve, I think you need to start looking at this debate from the other side. You, like me, are an old MXer. You have the money to ride what you want and probably not nearly enough time to do it. That's a perfect reason to own and support owning a four stroke. I think, that for the health and future of our sport you should look at it from the side of a ten year old kid. A kid who loves nothing more than riding but is getting to big for his 85. He knows he should get a 125/150 but doesn't have a Yamaha or KTM dealer close by. Not only that, but if he does get a 125/150, he knows he'll not have a chance at a good holeshot for a long time and the wins will be harder to come by. Then again, maybe he could beg Grandpa and Grandma for some extra dough and get the 250f. Sure, maybe he'll blow it up and they might help him out the first time, but do you think they'll be there when 2000 dollar rebuild tabs keep rolling in.

This is where it's at Steve. The two stroke is making a comeback because it has to. You cannot help but notice it, it's gaining momentum all the time. You can make a difference with your voice and that's all I'm asking you to do.
Maybe he's looked at it from the other side, probably so given he wrenched professionally on both types, and came to a different conclusion. I.e., he disagrees with you. Reasonable people can disagree.
Racer111
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9/27/2011 11:12am
Maybe he's looked at it from the other side, probably so given he wrenched professionally on both types, and came to a different conclusion. I.e., he...
Maybe he's looked at it from the other side, probably so given he wrenched professionally on both types, and came to a different conclusion. I.e., he disagrees with you. Reasonable people can disagree.
Big difference in being a factory mechanic for a rider where the factory foots the bill vs. an amateur and his parents footing the bill.

We are discussing costs, not the mechanical skills of Matthes.
race
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9/27/2011 11:28am
Hey, any of you that don't like the thread are free to not read it. As far as content and form it beats half the threads put up here. I'd be interested to hear Mathes respond ... without any bias.

A lot of these 2 vs 4 threads wouldn't come up if both sides stuck to real world numbers and didn't try to slant them.
Matthes
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9/27/2011 11:28am
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Tongue

This argument is so dumb, why does one side have to be the devil and there is no middle ground with this. Can't you just be a guy that likes two-strokes, likes four-strokes and sees the good and bad in both. I did not know that a KTM 250 is 2K cheaper than the 450, I know Yamaha is only 800 bucks so that begs the question, why would ANYONE buy a YZ250 if a KTM is so much cheaper?

Anyways, my points about the maintenance are absolutely true. I have buddies that have thumpers that have last forever and I have buddies who's two-strokes blew up all the time (for different reasons). Look I was a factory mechanic for two teams and I consider myself a very average mechanic (ask anyone who I worked with!) but the manuals are incredibly exhaustive and informative on how to look after your four-stroke.

I love the technology in the new four-strokes and hated how the two-strokes were becoming the same thing year after year. But then again the people who say there isn't a great transition from an 80 to a 250F are absolutely right as well. There's good and bad points to each people.

Excuse me while I go outside now to get lynched by a bunch of people with reed cages for necklaces.
9/27/2011 11:33am Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 11:40am
Maybe he's looked at it from the other side, probably so given he wrenched professionally on both types, and came to a different conclusion. I.e., he...
Maybe he's looked at it from the other side, probably so given he wrenched professionally on both types, and came to a different conclusion. I.e., he disagrees with you. Reasonable people can disagree.
I don't think Matthes should brag about being a mechanic to anyone. I have done enough motors to know, putting in a circlip that is too small is rather bad, you can tell by feel. But that is just a cheap shot at him for ignoring what all of us have said, and talking his BS about 250 2 strokes vs 450 4 chokes over and over, even when we call him out. Anyways, I was gonna post this exact thing. If anyone can't see what he's done, they are blind. EVERYONE knows he was watching the last "Ping for president" argument. He saw every one of the arguments that shows he got Pwnd, but ignored them all and went off on his YZ250 vs YZ450F tangent. AMA rules are 250 vs 250. Sorry to bust your BS meter. Let's compare apples to apples, hours on motors of 250 vs 250.

hellion
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9/27/2011 11:35am
Matthes wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. :P This argument is so dumb, why does one side have to be the devil and there is no middle ground with this. Can't you...
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Tongue

This argument is so dumb, why does one side have to be the devil and there is no middle ground with this. Can't you just be a guy that likes two-strokes, likes four-strokes and sees the good and bad in both. I did not know that a KTM 250 is 2K cheaper than the 450, I know Yamaha is only 800 bucks so that begs the question, why would ANYONE buy a YZ250 if a KTM is so much cheaper?

Anyways, my points about the maintenance are absolutely true. I have buddies that have thumpers that have last forever and I have buddies who's two-strokes blew up all the time (for different reasons). Look I was a factory mechanic for two teams and I consider myself a very average mechanic (ask anyone who I worked with!) but the manuals are incredibly exhaustive and informative on how to look after your four-stroke.

I love the technology in the new four-strokes and hated how the two-strokes were becoming the same thing year after year. But then again the people who say there isn't a great transition from an 80 to a 250F are absolutely right as well. There's good and bad points to each people.

Excuse me while I go outside now to get lynched by a bunch of people with reed cages for necklaces.
I was hoping you'd see the reason in the argument, but I guess it's like religion and politics in that you believe what you believe and nothing anyone says makes any difference, and if your opinion is different everyone gets all angry. Why can't it just be discussed?
motoxxx599
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9/27/2011 11:38am
Excuse me while I go outside now to get lynched by a bunch of people with reed cages for necklaces.

Duck the powervalves Steve
JOHN CHOATE
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9/27/2011 11:43am
Matthes wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. :P This argument is so dumb, why does one side have to be the devil and there is no middle ground with this. Can't you...
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Tongue

This argument is so dumb, why does one side have to be the devil and there is no middle ground with this. Can't you just be a guy that likes two-strokes, likes four-strokes and sees the good and bad in both. I did not know that a KTM 250 is 2K cheaper than the 450, I know Yamaha is only 800 bucks so that begs the question, why would ANYONE buy a YZ250 if a KTM is so much cheaper?

Anyways, my points about the maintenance are absolutely true. I have buddies that have thumpers that have last forever and I have buddies who's two-strokes blew up all the time (for different reasons). Look I was a factory mechanic for two teams and I consider myself a very average mechanic (ask anyone who I worked with!) but the manuals are incredibly exhaustive and informative on how to look after your four-stroke.

I love the technology in the new four-strokes and hated how the two-strokes were becoming the same thing year after year. But then again the people who say there isn't a great transition from an 80 to a 250F are absolutely right as well. There's good and bad points to each people.

Excuse me while I go outside now to get lynched by a bunch of people with reed cages for necklaces.
For some reason, Steve, I am thinking of Clint Eastwood in "Hang 'em High" right now.
Torco1
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9/27/2011 11:44am
Matthes wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. :P This argument is so dumb, why does one side have to be the devil and there is no middle ground with this. Can't you...
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Tongue

This argument is so dumb, why does one side have to be the devil and there is no middle ground with this. Can't you just be a guy that likes two-strokes, likes four-strokes and sees the good and bad in both. I did not know that a KTM 250 is 2K cheaper than the 450, I know Yamaha is only 800 bucks so that begs the question, why would ANYONE buy a YZ250 if a KTM is so much cheaper?

Anyways, my points about the maintenance are absolutely true. I have buddies that have thumpers that have last forever and I have buddies who's two-strokes blew up all the time (for different reasons). Look I was a factory mechanic for two teams and I consider myself a very average mechanic (ask anyone who I worked with!) but the manuals are incredibly exhaustive and informative on how to look after your four-stroke.

I love the technology in the new four-strokes and hated how the two-strokes were becoming the same thing year after year. But then again the people who say there isn't a great transition from an 80 to a 250F are absolutely right as well. There's good and bad points to each people.

Excuse me while I go outside now to get lynched by a bunch of people with reed cages for necklaces.
Exactly, I really hate getting involved in these 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke cluster f's.......but what I don't understand is why the pro 2-stroke crowd seems to always want to beat it into everyone's brains that 2-strokes are treated unfair and that rules need to change to accommodate them. If you enjoy owning and riding a 2-stroke, then do it. Nothing is stopping us regular riders from going out and buying a 2-stroke and riding it or racing it at local events. When a bunch of pro racers start complaining about it and show that they want to race 2-strokes in SX and MX instead of 4-strokes that is when someone might start listening......and that is a big might. But as it is, there is nothing stopping anyone of us from going out and buying a 2-stroke and riding it at your local track. Just be happy that you can do that, there really isn't a need to get all worked up and try to change the world when it's not going to affect you anyway. Ok, my rant is over.........I have to go and poop now.
lostboy819
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9/27/2011 11:44am Edited Date/Time 9/27/2011 11:45am
I don't have a problem with 4 strokes, I have a problem with the short sighted rules that gave them a huge advantage. and I also have a problem that no one has the balls in the AMA or MXsports to fix it. Sure the guys who really run the sport Honda , Yamaha, Pro circuit etc don't want the rules to change because of the investment they made to retool for the 4 strokes. You can still buy 2strokes and other than KTM there is no advancement because there is no fair class to race them so why spend the money to develop them ?
JOHN CHOATE
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9/27/2011 11:44am
By saying that I mean you're innocent but getting hung.

I love dirtbikes but I race a 4-stroke. Everybody RIDE ON !!!
Matthes
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9/27/2011 11:50am
hellion wrote:
I was hoping you'd see the reason in the argument, but I guess it's like religion and politics in that you believe what you believe and...
I was hoping you'd see the reason in the argument, but I guess it's like religion and politics in that you believe what you believe and nothing anyone says makes any difference, and if your opinion is different everyone gets all angry. Why can't it just be discussed?
You have some good points in there as did I on the show last night. We can all agree that murdering someone is bad right? I just don't think you can say the same about this debate, there are too many logical points on both sides.

What is a good debate is- What if the AMA was a little smarter when they made the rule about a 550cc thumper displacement and only made it 350? Would we be in the four-stroke age that we're now in? Congrats to Yamaha for looking at the rule and building a bad-ass bike but what if?
lostboy819
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9/27/2011 11:52am
I really think that with all of the advancements in the 4 strokes that the CCs should be equal. Make the 250 class 2 or 4 stroke 250cc limit and call it good.
seth505
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9/27/2011 11:54am
lostboy819 wrote:
I don't have a problem with 4 strokes, I have a problem with the short sighted rules that gave them a huge advantage. and I also...
I don't have a problem with 4 strokes, I have a problem with the short sighted rules that gave them a huge advantage. and I also have a problem that no one has the balls in the AMA or MXsports to fix it. Sure the guys who really run the sport Honda , Yamaha, Pro circuit etc don't want the rules to change because of the investment they made to retool for the 4 strokes. You can still buy 2strokes and other than KTM there is no advancement because there is no fair class to race them so why spend the money to develop them ?
Ya this ^

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