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downard254
7/25/2015 6:04pm
7/25/2015 6:04pm
Edited Date/Time
2/8/2016 1:16am
I have layed out a natural terrain course in one of my fields, and being raised "Old School" I thought it would be nice if select others could come out and ride with my son and I. I was wondering if you could point me in a direction for a decent liability waiver to have others sign. It will not be open to the public, and I will not charge a penny to those I invite. Any other insight you may have would be greatly appreciated as I always find your posts very interesting reading. I have had a few business law classes when I was in college, and spent some time with lawyers with a few legal cases in contract law with out construction business. Just not sure how or where to go about researching case law or judgements on similar situations.
If you are busy like myself, and haven't got the time, I completely understand too.
Thanks in advance for any consideration.
If you are busy like myself, and haven't got the time, I completely understand too.
Thanks in advance for any consideration.
Tracks come with liability. I wouldn't have one without having a huge insurance policy, and probably an LLC to protect your personal assets.
It's not as simple as it sounds.
Shane
Any attorney is going to walk through a waiver. The best thing about a waiver is it might make someone think they don't have a case because they signed it.
I don't want to be discouraging, but as someone who may or may not have assets (I don't know you...but I'd guess you have some) you want to protect them. Rather have the entity be "Good Riding Times, LLC" rather than "John Smith" that gets sued. LLC protection is not absolute, but it'll offer way more protection than a waiver will.
I've ridden and gotten hurt at friends tracks (my leg that's currently healing was at a friends track and I'm out of work for six months). I wouldn't sue, and my family is okay financially. It doesn't mean everyone feels that way. Especially when family members and insurance companies get involved.
If you don't take the steps to protect yourself, why would anyone else? You have your own best interests in mind.
Shane
Not sure where you are getting the whole.bit about waivers only being as strong as the paper they are written on.
If.you are diligent, they are far from worthless.
Downard, laws.very a great deal from state to state, but what you might want to.check into is a.private club setup where riders buy a membership that in essence, would make.them a defendant in any litigation they try to bring.
Check with other facilities in your area and see what they recommend.
If the people riding are over 18 that simplifies a lot.of.things.
The Shop
But every state law is different, I don't know Ohio's tort liability laws, and I am not admitted to practice in any other state than California. It's always good to work with a local lawyer who can put one together. Talking to your insurance guy is another lead, too; they will be all about limiting exposure as much as possible.
Good luck!
The field the track is in is pretty much just an 85 acre farm. I rent the farmable ground out and the rest is just pasture. Personally, I don't own much. My bikes, law mowers, small tractor, and household items.
Part of the problem I have that I'm a litigator, so the sample I deal with is the "this deal looked so good and went so wrong crowd," so my view of what corners can be cut is pretty skewed toward dealing with those problems up front, no matter the pain, because it will be harder to deal with after the fact of a problem. Its a little like dressing for the crash; just count on that thing you don't want to happen happening, especially given that what you dint want to happen ~ someone falling and getting hurt ~ is inevitable.
I hear you on insurance, but the dirty little secret of this sport is that a tracks viability probably turns more of the health of its insurance portfolio than anything. It's simply impossible to conceive of tracks being self insured given the exposure with MX injuries. It's the flip side of riding without medical insurance.
I'll assume bob is right about what his hourly is, even if he's wrong about mine.
Anyone who's read my yapping on it knows that I think it's folly not to identify all costs of doing an activity in order to determine how to properly run and price it. Part of knowing what to charge is what the customer will bear, but another part is actually knowing what the necessary expenses are. The stuff like insurance and care in crafting waivers and flaggers and grading, etc, all tend to fall into a category of "can I get away with not ...?" They all cost money, and it is hard to quantify what you save because the bad things that don't happen because of precautions cannot be counted, But what can be counted on is that bad things will happen at a motocross track, and anyone running a track thinking they can escape them is kidding himself. Imo it's better to price at the point the covers what is necessary to protect the track owner and run a sustainable operation. Guys that feel it's too expensive probably are the greatest risk points anyway.
Just my general opinions on the subject.
I have been thinking though, what is the possibility of writing up a lease agreement that is for just one day. Is there a term limit on leases, or could the track be leased to one, or several people for a day through a lease agreement. If so, what would the liability risks be. Would I still need a secondary insurance policy.
Bear in mind, the idea here was just to allow a select few a place to ride. I do not claim to be a professional track builder, have no expertise in the area of track design or safety management. I'm not sure what the protocol is on liability towards an individual who knows no more than one who is riding on any given day.
I'm not an idiot, just trying to look from the outside in and break things down from a reasonable man standard.
Well, it looks like the best option for me now is the let my mining LLC lease the track area for $1 and get some really good waivers for liability release. I just started up this LLC in January, and it really has no possessions. The LLC does own an old John Deere loader, but that's it. If it's true that an LLC will protect the land owner, then that should at least be another protective roadblock for any potential personal lawsuits. I'm sure that a personal injury attorney will not stop at an LLC or good waiver to go after money, but the more road blocks I can throw up to deter it's potential, the better I'll be. At least that's what I'm hoping.
Dam we live in a fucked up world!
Party A - I need a place to ride
Party B - I have land you can ride one
Part A - Thanks
Party B - No Worries
Party A - I fell over and hurt myself I am suing you
Party B -
Pit Row
lots of info in here and thanks for posting and keep us posted.
I've edited the thread topic to try and draw more input.
http://www.pagodamc.org/
http://www.milfordridersclub.com/
A General Liability policy is recommended just for the piece of mind of knowing that you have an insurance companies attorney's on retainer for another deductible fee. But sometimes you get sued because you have the insurance policy and now have a partner in the lawsuit with deep pockets that will settle just to make it go away, so it's a catch 22.
It sucks that in this day and age you cant to be nice and let people ride your track without worrying that they will turn around and sue at the drop of a dirt bike.
Theres also the "racing incident" where someone just collides with another rider on a well groomed, watered straightaway fully staffed with flaggers.
I have a waiver I get signed. I know it isn't worth much but it has to help somewhat.
I only let people I know very well and know can ride, ride at our track. I still have it signed. Every local track we go makes you sign one...
What they deduced was, make the waiver completely seperated from you personally, as in, you do not hand them a waiver and have them sign it. You set up a website that they will have to download a waiver and a rules and regulations page to define the waivers reasoning. This waiver, and the rules, will have to be signed and NOTARIZED, then brought to you after that is done.
What this does is ensure they recognize everything listwd on the waiver. It removes any doubt in a jury that you may have forged a waiver to cover your butt, and it places all responsibility on the party who signs it.
As long as you never touch a waiver before it is signed, and the waiver itself defines everything, you will be protected.
It would be "the above" had it not gone to a new page...hate when that happens.
Post a reply to: Calling FTE...private track liability concerns