CTE in 99% of former NFL players, 87% at all levels. MX ?%

kzizok
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kzizok 7/25/2017 9:19am
7/25/2017 9:19am Edited Date/Time 7/25/2017 9:34am
https://www.betitbest.com/sportsnews/de/news/study-cte-diagnosed-in-99-…

That is a real problem. Which leads me to MX. It probably is more of an issue than is given credit to.
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Swann
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Swann 7/25/2017 9:34am
7/25/2017 9:34am Edited Date/Time 7/25/2017 9:41am
kzizok wrote:
https://www.betitbest.com/sportsnews/de/news/study-cte-diagnosed-in-99-…

That is a real problem. Which leads me to MX. It probably is more of an issue than is given credit to.
Why? Because both athletes happen to wear helmets? The dynamic of football and what they've found to cause CTE is not really the same dynamic as motocross and the occasional, inevitable major concussion that can occur unless they find that the constant jostling of your head in motocross conditions causes micro-concussions.

Did they ever make a scientific determination about Dave Mirra? I was never particularly comfortable with how quickly everyone wanted to blame his suicide on concussions over perhaps a more serious, underlying mental disorder that wasn't necessarily attributable to concussions. I doubt Chester Pennington had CTE.
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jwoltz 7/25/2017 9:58am
7/25/2017 9:58am
Having played div.1 football, and now having raced for a few years....... I can assure you that the daily contact [at a fully padded practice]....head wise is more than the average motocross rider [non-pro] will ever experience. Sounds unlikely, but it true.

NFL........Completely different level of contact.

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Flip109
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Flip109 7/25/2017 10:29am
7/25/2017 10:29am
jwoltz wrote:
Having played div.1 football, and now having raced for a few years....... I can assure you that the daily contact [at a fully padded practice]....head wise...
Having played div.1 football, and now having raced for a few years....... I can assure you that the daily contact [at a fully padded practice]....head wise is more than the average motocross rider [non-pro] will ever experience. Sounds unlikely, but it true.

NFL........Completely different level of contact.
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty hard. Esp when you have a crazy coach who makes you do crack drill after crack drill. Had a concussion so bad one time I forgot I even had a car to drive home after practice lol. Couldn't even imagine college ball or the pros. Opposed to mx where its a few big hits here and there, unless you are just a retard and crash all the time. What pos did you play?
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Swann 7/25/2017 10:39am
7/25/2017 10:39am Edited Date/Time 7/25/2017 10:41am
TXDirt wrote:
You mean this scientific determination about Dave Mira and CTE?

Doctors say late BMX legend Dave Mirra had CTE
"Mirra, who was 41, suffered a fractured skull when a car hit him at age 19, and he dabbled in boxing after his retirement from BMX. But he also endured countless concussions during his BMX career, beginning at a young age."

I wouldn't say that's a clear-cut case of extreme sports induced CTE. Seems he was a more complex situation. I'm not discounting it but I'm also a skeptic by nature.
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 7/25/2017 10:48am
7/25/2017 10:48am
We better keep an eye on Pastrana.
Swann
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Swann 7/25/2017 11:00am
7/25/2017 11:00am Edited Date/Time 7/25/2017 11:00am
I raced BMX as a kid and had a few concussions during those years. I've also had a few from racing/riding motorcycles. Each and every time I hit my head and got a concussion, I and everyone around me took it seriously, even back in the mid 80's.

I don't ever remember a time in either BMX or motocross where the idea of a concussion wasn't taken seriously. Seems football players and the NFL have a cultural issue to deal with as well. Brushing off a concussion like it's "just part of the game" is horribly stupid.
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TXDirt 7/25/2017 11:02am
7/25/2017 11:02am
TXDirt wrote:
You mean this scientific determination about Dave Mira and CTE?

Doctors say late BMX legend Dave Mirra had CTE
Swann wrote:
"Mirra, who was 41, suffered a fractured skull when a car hit him at age 19, and he dabbled in boxing after his retirement from BMX...
"Mirra, who was 41, suffered a fractured skull when a car hit him at age 19, and he dabbled in boxing after his retirement from BMX. But he also endured countless concussions during his BMX career, beginning at a young age."

I wouldn't say that's a clear-cut case of extreme sports induced CTE. Seems he was a more complex situation. I'm not discounting it but I'm also a skeptic by nature.
CTE is not entirely or only caused by concussions. It's caused by repeated blows of the brain bouncing off your skull. Sometimes this produces a concussion and sometimes it doesn't. How many times have you crashed and hit your head but didn't have a concussion? That's why we wear helmets. I believe these type of repeated blows are likely much more a contributing factor then a full concussion.

So if you start riding motorcycles at age 8 and lets say you ride a lot, maybe even get into racing. And you stop at the age of 18. That's 10 years of crashing and taking several blows to the head. Sprinkle in a concussion here and there and you have a recipe for potential CTE later in life.

Obviously we don't know enough about CTE, concussions, and the brain yet. But I wouldn't let your lack of knowledge discount it's possible prevalence in action sports such as SX/MX.
NorCal 50+
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NorCal 50+ 7/25/2017 11:19am
7/25/2017 11:19am
I have to think the NFL's days are numbered with all the lawsuits that will be coming down.
I played football for years as a kid. We just thought that slamming our skulls together day after day for years just made you tougher. Always went home with a headache.
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jwoltz 7/25/2017 11:42am
7/25/2017 11:42am
Flip109 wrote:
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty...
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty hard. Esp when you have a crazy coach who makes you do crack drill after crack drill. Had a concussion so bad one time I forgot I even had a car to drive home after practice lol. Couldn't even imagine college ball or the pros. Opposed to mx where its a few big hits here and there, unless you are just a retard and crash all the time. What pos did you play?
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable in hindsight.
philG
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philG 7/25/2017 12:01pm
7/25/2017 12:01pm
As sports go, NFL has to be right up there with boxing , with regards to pointless longterm injury. Players that were expendable are now coming back cap in hand for help, which anyone who had a bit of common sense , can see coming a mile off.

MX isnt inst even close to being in the same league.
Dirty Points 7/25/2017 12:10pm
7/25/2017 12:10pm
Flip109 wrote:
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty...
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty hard. Esp when you have a crazy coach who makes you do crack drill after crack drill. Had a concussion so bad one time I forgot I even had a car to drive home after practice lol. Couldn't even imagine college ball or the pros. Opposed to mx where its a few big hits here and there, unless you are just a retard and crash all the time. What pos did you play?
jwoltz wrote:
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable...
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable in hindsight.
How much do you weigh, if you don't mind the asking?
kzizok
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kzizok 7/25/2017 12:20pm
7/25/2017 12:20pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
I have to think the NFL's days are numbered with all the lawsuits that will be coming down. I played football for years as a kid...
I have to think the NFL's days are numbered with all the lawsuits that will be coming down.
I played football for years as a kid. We just thought that slamming our skulls together day after day for years just made you tougher. Always went home with a headache.
That is a pretty big blow to the NFL.
Tracktor
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Tracktor 7/25/2017 12:23pm
7/25/2017 12:23pm
It seems we are the only family locally that takes this issue seriously. We have seen numerous times kids back on the track within days of being completely out for 1+ minutes. Even back within days after multiple KO's in the last month or two. Getting points is more important than long-term health. I think much of it goes back to out of sight out of mind(or in your mind). If some people don't see an obvious injury then it's all good.
We have made sure to take more than enough time off even if there was a hint of a head injury. TBI's are nothing to be taken lightly even in a sport where we ignorantly brag about how tough "we" are by riding hurt.............MX'ers taken as a whole aren't very bright...........
Michael Scott 7/25/2017 1:19pm
7/25/2017 1:19pm
What do you guys think long term symptoms are for someone who has had say 10 concussions? I think that may be more realistic for the average moto person or someone who has just been active growing up like myself snowboarding, skateboarding, moto, bikes... I had several concussions even before my first broken bone
Flip109
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Flip109 7/25/2017 3:44pm
7/25/2017 3:44pm
Flip109 wrote:
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty...
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty hard. Esp when you have a crazy coach who makes you do crack drill after crack drill. Had a concussion so bad one time I forgot I even had a car to drive home after practice lol. Couldn't even imagine college ball or the pros. Opposed to mx where its a few big hits here and there, unless you are just a retard and crash all the time. What pos did you play?
jwoltz wrote:
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable...
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable in hindsight.
Dirty Points wrote:
How much do you weigh, if you don't mind the asking?
Also please post a pic. I've always wanted to see a D1 defensive lineman on a moto scooter! Haha

That's awesome by the way. Anyone who makes it to a D1 college is a badass.

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just James 7/25/2017 3:52pm
7/25/2017 3:52pm
I have often wondered why football players don't wear thicker helmets. Yes, I realize that a thicker helmet would not eliminate all concussions, but that extra inch of padding for the brain to decelerate would have to help IMHO.

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sickboy3636
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sickboy3636 7/25/2017 7:40pm
7/25/2017 7:40pm
Flip109 wrote:
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty...
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty hard. Esp when you have a crazy coach who makes you do crack drill after crack drill. Had a concussion so bad one time I forgot I even had a car to drive home after practice lol. Couldn't even imagine college ball or the pros. Opposed to mx where its a few big hits here and there, unless you are just a retard and crash all the time. What pos did you play?
jwoltz wrote:
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable...
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable in hindsight.
Where is CSUF? I actually played LB/DE at Colorado State "CSU" 01-06. That late 90's early 00 time period I believe was probably the most dangerous for head injuries. The sport had gotten to the fastest point yet, and people still didn't pay attention to brain injuries. My coach knew me well and I was notorious for knocking myself or someone else out.....he'd look me in the eyes and say...."you got dinged, can you still go". as long as I could find my helmet I'd just nod back. I seldomly got pulled except for the after major ones where you didn't know what planet you were on anymore. I agree on the repeated shots taken in football. Sometimes it blows my mind the amount of brain rattling blows taken just over a normal practice.....esp through spring ball. My knee went while training for the NFL....and in retrospect it was probably a God sent. I've had some pretty solid concussions in MX but its much different than the pure repeated chaos of football, esp at that level.
sickboy3636
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sickboy3636 7/25/2017 7:45pm
7/25/2017 7:45pm
jwoltz wrote:
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable...
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable in hindsight.
Dirty Points wrote:
How much do you weigh, if you don't mind the asking?
Flip109 wrote:
Also please post a pic. I've always wanted to see a D1 defensive lineman on a moto scooter! Haha That's awesome by the way. Anyone who...
Also please post a pic. I've always wanted to see a D1 defensive lineman on a moto scooter! Haha

That's awesome by the way. Anyone who makes it to a D1 college is a badass.

When I was racing often I was in the 6'4" 270 range at some points. And ripping a 2 stroke most of the time I'd have to be lined up next to 100 pound punk that I was giving up about 20 horsepower to just based on weight alone. smh. I bought a 2012 crf450 and being one of the smaller chassis's I've ridden I had some serious risers on that thing. People at the track always said I was running ape hangers out there. Its nice being big.......but its a b!tch sometimes cause everything, esp in MX, is designed for frickin horse jockeys.
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sickboy3636 7/25/2017 7:52pm
7/25/2017 7:52pm
just James wrote:
I have often wondered why football players don't wear thicker helmets. Yes, I realize that a thicker helmet would not eliminate all concussions, but that extra...
I have often wondered why football players don't wear thicker helmets. Yes, I realize that a thicker helmet would not eliminate all concussions, but that extra inch of padding for the brain to decelerate would have to help IMHO.
I've always said the opposite. The more advancements that have been made in football have given players the ability to make contact at mind blowing speeds. This may sound crazy, but to truly eliminate the sever brain injuries, go back to the leather helmets days. Just look at rugby.....you have missing teeth and broken noses.....but you don't have severe brain trauma you have in football. Those guys know they are limited by the equipment they have and they know it. I know when I was geared up with Douglas neck brace, an air helmet and a three strap chin strap, I felt like I could run head first into a Mac truck. Nothing got hurt from the collisions......except your brain coming to a sudden jarring dead stop every single time.
10000hrs
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10000hrs 7/25/2017 8:14pm
7/25/2017 8:14pm
just James wrote:
I have often wondered why football players don't wear thicker helmets. Yes, I realize that a thicker helmet would not eliminate all concussions, but that extra...
I have often wondered why football players don't wear thicker helmets. Yes, I realize that a thicker helmet would not eliminate all concussions, but that extra inch of padding for the brain to decelerate would have to help IMHO.
Well, if a thicker helmet protects my head, it will also lesson the damage I can inflict on my opponent and I am tougher than him so I can take it.
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TbonesPop 7/25/2017 8:54pm
7/25/2017 8:54pm
sickboy3636 wrote:
I've always said the opposite. The more advancements that have been made in football have given players the ability to make contact at mind blowing speeds...
I've always said the opposite. The more advancements that have been made in football have given players the ability to make contact at mind blowing speeds. This may sound crazy, but to truly eliminate the sever brain injuries, go back to the leather helmets days. Just look at rugby.....you have missing teeth and broken noses.....but you don't have severe brain trauma you have in football. Those guys know they are limited by the equipment they have and they know it. I know when I was geared up with Douglas neck brace, an air helmet and a three strap chin strap, I felt like I could run head first into a Mac truck. Nothing got hurt from the collisions......except your brain coming to a sudden jarring dead stop every single time.
I played rugby in college. There are still a fair amount of concussions in rugby. They do teach a different tackling technique in general for rugby as opposed to football, but it's not to avoid concussions or head injuries. Its to tackle in a way that gives the defenders a better chance at getting to the ball. the line of scrimmage is defined by where and how the ball carrier is brought to the ground. I got my head cracked a bunch of times playing. Sometimes it was on a tackle, other times it was in a scrum, sometimes I was on the ground and just got kicked in the head (usually on purpose). The main and only difference between football and rugby is, rugby players don't use their head as a weapon (because it will hurt). That's totally legit. But in rugby you still take a ton of hits to the head. I don't know if they have studied it yet for rugby players like they have in the NFL, but I gotta believe the results are going to be similar.

I don't know MMA isn't going to be impacted by CTE eventually too.
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Gravel 7/25/2017 9:09pm
7/25/2017 9:09pm
Michael Scott wrote:
What do you guys think long term symptoms are for someone who has had say 10 concussions? I think that may be more realistic for the...
What do you guys think long term symptoms are for someone who has had say 10 concussions? I think that may be more realistic for the average moto person or someone who has just been active growing up like myself snowboarding, skateboarding, moto, bikes... I had several concussions even before my first broken bone
This question brings it home for me. I'd think a lot of average joe racers would like to know the answer to this...
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jwoltz 7/25/2017 9:10pm
7/25/2017 9:10pm
Flip109 wrote:
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty...
Yeah, esp as a defensive player. I only played through highschool as a corner and safety. You hit your head hundreds of times a season pretty hard. Esp when you have a crazy coach who makes you do crack drill after crack drill. Had a concussion so bad one time I forgot I even had a car to drive home after practice lol. Couldn't even imagine college ball or the pros. Opposed to mx where its a few big hits here and there, unless you are just a retard and crash all the time. What pos did you play?
jwoltz wrote:
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable...
I played defensive line at CSUF, 99-04. Mostly 3-technique and defensive end in certain packages. Was a blast, but moto is above and beyond more enjoyable in hindsight.
Dirty Points wrote:
How much do you weigh, if you don't mind the asking?
Now a days, about 230-40. Hard to get lower than that for me sadly.
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jwoltz 7/25/2017 9:12pm
7/25/2017 9:12pm
Dirty Points wrote:
How much do you weigh, if you don't mind the asking?
Flip109 wrote:
Also please post a pic. I've always wanted to see a D1 defensive lineman on a moto scooter! Haha That's awesome by the way. Anyone who...
Also please post a pic. I've always wanted to see a D1 defensive lineman on a moto scooter! Haha

That's awesome by the way. Anyone who makes it to a D1 college is a badass.

sickboy3636 wrote:
When I was racing often I was in the 6'4" 270 range at some points. And ripping a 2 stroke most of the time I'd have...
When I was racing often I was in the 6'4" 270 range at some points. And ripping a 2 stroke most of the time I'd have to be lined up next to 100 pound punk that I was giving up about 20 horsepower to just based on weight alone. smh. I bought a 2012 crf450 and being one of the smaller chassis's I've ridden I had some serious risers on that thing. People at the track always said I was running ape hangers out there. Its nice being big.......but its a b!tch sometimes cause everything, esp in MX, is designed for frickin horse jockeys.
Yeah! I hear you!!!!
sickboy3636
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sickboy3636 7/25/2017 10:10pm
7/25/2017 10:10pm
sickboy3636 wrote:
I've always said the opposite. The more advancements that have been made in football have given players the ability to make contact at mind blowing speeds...
I've always said the opposite. The more advancements that have been made in football have given players the ability to make contact at mind blowing speeds. This may sound crazy, but to truly eliminate the sever brain injuries, go back to the leather helmets days. Just look at rugby.....you have missing teeth and broken noses.....but you don't have severe brain trauma you have in football. Those guys know they are limited by the equipment they have and they know it. I know when I was geared up with Douglas neck brace, an air helmet and a three strap chin strap, I felt like I could run head first into a Mac truck. Nothing got hurt from the collisions......except your brain coming to a sudden jarring dead stop every single time.
TbonesPop wrote:
I played rugby in college. There are still a fair amount of concussions in rugby. They do teach a different tackling technique in general for rugby...
I played rugby in college. There are still a fair amount of concussions in rugby. They do teach a different tackling technique in general for rugby as opposed to football, but it's not to avoid concussions or head injuries. Its to tackle in a way that gives the defenders a better chance at getting to the ball. the line of scrimmage is defined by where and how the ball carrier is brought to the ground. I got my head cracked a bunch of times playing. Sometimes it was on a tackle, other times it was in a scrum, sometimes I was on the ground and just got kicked in the head (usually on purpose). The main and only difference between football and rugby is, rugby players don't use their head as a weapon (because it will hurt). That's totally legit. But in rugby you still take a ton of hits to the head. I don't know if they have studied it yet for rugby players like they have in the NFL, but I gotta believe the results are going to be similar.

I don't know MMA isn't going to be impacted by CTE eventually too.
I got a great respect for rugby and played for a short time after playing ball. As you said, the helmet is utilized as a weapon. You can try to teach all you want......but the majority of players know that using the driving force of the helmet is an advantage and they utilize it....esp in the trenches. Theres def a roughness to rugby that you don't get in football.......but the blunt forces are increased in football due to nature of the game. Now with all that said, as soft as football has gotten in these last 10 years, I have more respect for rugby players. The truth is.......its the nature of the sports we play. No matter how much information I would have had at 18.....I still would have tried to break my facemask on every hit, and would have gotten on my dirt bike and raced like a bat outta hell. We live longer and wanna be protected from everything now......a great portion of my life memories were made skating that edge of out of control. Maybe my eyes will be crossed and I'll be twitching uncontrollably by 45.......but I still would run the same gauntlet through life if I could do it over again.
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GuyB 7/25/2017 10:18pm
7/25/2017 10:18pm
Well, to find out we'll need some MXers to donate their brains.
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sickboy3636 7/25/2017 10:24pm
7/25/2017 10:24pm
Well thankfully none have shot themselves in the chest in an attempt to make this happen. Hopefully in the near future CTE tests will be able to be accomplished in the living instead of just the deceased.
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KAWI642 7/25/2017 10:42pm
7/25/2017 10:42pm Edited Date/Time 7/25/2017 10:52pm
At 45 years old I have a few of the symptoms described of CTE. Played 5 years of High School Football and earned a small school scholarship in 91 but didn't play in college for a few reasons. Also have raced MX off/on since 1984. Plenty of head knocks in both sports. The Will Smith movie was a eye opener for me and it made me really examine my years competing and the amount of hits I took to the head.... Possibly could explain a lot but there is no way of knowing for sure.

It is something that needs being discussed and people be made aware of the potential in MX IMO. I had 2 kids racing at one time and 1 at a pretty high level. Quit completely in 2014 I just didn't feel like the reward was worth the risk for head and other catastrophic injuries.

I laugh at MXERS that act like Football is a "weak " sport and doesn't require the toughness of MX. Football is a brutal, brutal sport even at the youth level.

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