CARB chief threatens to ban internal combustion engines

Zacka 161 wrote:

There are many reasons why your argument is very typically flawed. Number 1 economy of scale, even if the grid didnt go green, the powerplants are...

There are many reasons why your argument is very typically flawed.

Number 1 economy of scale, even if the grid didnt go green, the powerplants are far more efficient at energy production than individual vehicles. So make every vehicle electric and continue to add coal powerplants and overall emissions go down.

Saying 'we burn coal for everything so dont change anything' is very patently ridiculous.

An intelligent person would say 'we burn coal for everything and have done for a long ass time, maybe its time to update to a more efficient technology, we also used to use carrier pigeons to send messages, and that was replaced, and planes mostly replaced trains for long distance transport and hey maybe life can move on from innefficient, dirty, expensive, heavily subsidised, outdated electricity production'

jeffro503 wrote:

That idiot chick is living in la-la land. Before you actually ban something....it might be wise to have a viable and logical replacement. And just like...

That idiot chick is living in la-la land. Before you actually ban something....it might be wise to have a viable and logical replacement. And just like NY , if you tax the shit out of people....guess what?.....They leave. We are all for clean air and so forth , but Christ this isn't the land of rainbow's and unicorn's and we can't get to our jobs on flying fucking carpet's!

Motoxdoc wrote:

The writing is on the wall, ICE’s will go the way of the doe-doe bird (sp?). Honda sees it... The sooner you except this, the less...

The writing is on the wall, ICE’s will go the way of the doe-doe bird (sp?). Honda sees it... The sooner you except this, the less chance you’ll need therapy!
As for your arbitrary complaint about taxes, I just moved to Illinois where they don’t like to. I will promise you the people here pay more in car repairs hitting potholes then they would if they each paid a little more in taxes. Every day I see 6-8 firemen panhandling on a busy street corner....I kid you not! Their electrical grid is as old as BobbyM and I don’t even want to know about the condition of their drinking and waste water treatmen! You can complain all you want about taxes and progress....or embrace how they are related and focus on optimizing both for your communities benefits.
Btw, what does phasing out ICE’s for electric have to do with rainbows, unicorns and jobs? Are you worried about putting the coal miners back underground?....are you worried about the oil industry’s bottom line? People will always fight progress...

Graybeard wrote:

What I learned in this thread: Environmentalists are REALLY bad a math. And have logic issues. Pro EV-Only people have never worked on a farm or...

What I learned in this thread:
Environmentalists are REALLY bad a math. And have logic issues.
Pro EV-Only people have never worked on a farm or in agriculture.
California is California. (Think: Dean is Dean).
Tesla / Musk are going broke.
God Bless Texas!

Zacka 161 wrote:

Clearly you didnt actually read any of the posts, just skimmed the rebuttals... Im 100 percent pro EV-Only (in cities), pro Hybrid only everywhere else until...

Clearly you didnt actually read any of the posts, just skimmed the rebuttals...

Im 100 percent pro EV-Only (in cities), pro Hybrid only everywhere else until electric recharge is fast and as prevelant as gas stations.... And in 20 years it very likely will be

Tesla is going broke, which is his bad business management, but has prove electric cars and that people want them... So maybe check out where every other manufacturer is going and developing before you use this as a sign to be anti EV.

Alta proved the viability and desire for a quality electric motocross bike, however IMO the inability to compete in Pro or Am cost it dearly... How will that change moving forward? Honda will let you know.

SCR wrote:

Here's a taste of modern technology for you. Trillions of bits of information being sent, stored, filed, forgotten about, yet forever being refilled and organized. Videos...

Here's a taste of modern technology for you. Trillions of bits of information being sent, stored, filed, forgotten about, yet forever being refilled and organized. Videos games, fantasy football, cat pictures, teenage arguments, and trillions of kilowatts of absolutely useless information.

Just a couple pictures of the many more to come millions of power sucking server farms, back up diesel generators, and giant air conditioning systems to try and keep all that modern green technology nice and cool.
They call it The Cloud. Out of site out of mind.

Brad460 wrote:

A lot of these data centers are using natural gas powered engines with 3-way catalysts for back up power. Emissions are almost nothing... Rich burn natural...

A lot of these data centers are using natural gas powered engines with 3-way catalysts for back up power. Emissions are almost nothing...

Rich burn natural gas engines have similar load acceptance as a diesel. Can go from dead to full rpm/load in 10 seconds (Microsoft and Apple requirements..)

SCR wrote:

Here's a taste of modern technology for you. Trillions of bits of information being sent, stored, filed, forgotten about, yet forever being refilled and organized. Videos...

Here's a taste of modern technology for you. Trillions of bits of information being sent, stored, filed, forgotten about, yet forever being refilled and organized. Videos games, fantasy football, cat pictures, teenage arguments, and trillions of kilowatts of absolutely useless information.

Just a couple pictures of the many more to come millions of power sucking server farms, back up diesel generators, and giant air conditioning systems to try and keep all that modern green technology nice and cool.
They call it The Cloud. Out of site out of mind.

Brad460 wrote:

A lot of these data centers are using natural gas powered engines with 3-way catalysts for back up power. Emissions are almost nothing... Rich burn natural...

A lot of these data centers are using natural gas powered engines with 3-way catalysts for back up power. Emissions are almost nothing...

Rich burn natural gas engines have similar load acceptance as a diesel. Can go from dead to full rpm/load in 10 seconds (Microsoft and Apple requirements..)

Graybeard wrote:

Yeah, no, not the Facebook ones.....

Sierra Ranger wrote:

The problem with the fancy EV/solar/home grid set-up is that only rich people can afford it. (80% of EV owners make more than $100k/year) So when...

The problem with the fancy EV/solar/home grid set-up is that only rich people can afford it. (80% of EV owners make more than $100k/year) So when you subsidize EVs you are really subsidizing the dick who works at Twitter for $150k/year while gas prices hammer the people in the projects, who if you notice, aren't driving a new EV that they park in their own garage in their solar-powered house.

Sierra Ranger wrote:

The problem with the fancy EV/solar/home grid set-up is that only rich people can afford it. (80% of EV owners make more than $100k/year) So when...

The problem with the fancy EV/solar/home grid set-up is that only rich people can afford it. (80% of EV owners make more than $100k/year) So when you subsidize EVs you are really subsidizing the dick who works at Twitter for $150k/year while gas prices hammer the people in the projects, who if you notice, aren't driving a new EV that they park in their own garage in their solar-powered house.

harescrambled wrote:

Not only that, but the EV driver is not paying for the maintenance and upkeep of the roads they drive on. That's done through gas/diesel taxes

Sierra Ranger wrote:

The report came out today by California Energy Commission on why gas prices are more than $1 gallon/higher than the rest of the country (refinery outages...

The report came out today by California Energy Commission on why gas prices are more than $1 gallon/higher than the rest of the country (refinery outages, taxes and possible market manipulation).
Interestingly it says "name brand" stations like Chevron charge much higher prices even though their gas is pretty much the same quality: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6015285-CEC-MEMO-Gasoline-Price…

coastlinecascot wrote:

Here in ca it's done through our yearly cost of vehicle tags.

bvm111 wrote:

1. This is a California thing so who really cares? 2. For the people that think EV will save the planet I’ll just leave this photo...

1. This is a California thing so who really cares?
2. For the people that think EV will save the planet I’ll just leave this photo of a lithium mine for you to ponder your actual tangible destruction of the earth while you drink from a paper straw while wearing hemp sandals as you smear patchouli oil on your nipples.

Just remember there is no such thing as clean energy!

bvm111 wrote:

1. This is a California thing so who really cares? 2. For the people that think EV will save the planet I’ll just leave this photo...

1. This is a California thing so who really cares?
2. For the people that think EV will save the planet I’ll just leave this photo of a lithium mine for you to ponder your actual tangible destruction of the earth while you drink from a paper straw while wearing hemp sandals as you smear patchouli oil on your nipples.

Just remember there is no such thing as clean energy!

Graybeard wrote:

What I learned in this thread: Environmentalists are REALLY bad a math. And have logic issues. Pro EV-Only people have never worked on a farm or...

What I learned in this thread:
Environmentalists are REALLY bad a math. And have logic issues.
Pro EV-Only people have never worked on a farm or in agriculture.
California is California. (Think: Dean is Dean).
Tesla / Musk are going broke.
God Bless Texas!

Zacka 161 wrote:

Clearly you didnt actually read any of the posts, just skimmed the rebuttals... Im 100 percent pro EV-Only (in cities), pro Hybrid only everywhere else until...

Clearly you didnt actually read any of the posts, just skimmed the rebuttals...

Im 100 percent pro EV-Only (in cities), pro Hybrid only everywhere else until electric recharge is fast and as prevelant as gas stations.... And in 20 years it very likely will be

Tesla is going broke, which is his bad business management, but has prove electric cars and that people want them... So maybe check out where every other manufacturer is going and developing before you use this as a sign to be anti EV.

Alta proved the viability and desire for a quality electric motocross bike, however IMO the inability to compete in Pro or Am cost it dearly... How will that change moving forward? Honda will let you know.

Graybeard wrote:

Zac, you’re trying too hard to push your agenda, my friend. I’ve been on the frontlines of the environmental battlefield since the 1980s, up and down...

Zac, you’re trying too hard to push your agenda, my friend. I’ve been on the frontlines of the environmental battlefield since the 1980s, up and down the coast of California, in the toughest APCDs in the state. I was into alternative fuel solutions in the 1970s (look up Gerald Schaflander and his Hy-Fuel—really caught my attention as a teen ager) but the environmental movement isn’t about clean air, clean fuel, better technology, etc., it’s about a different type of power. The power to control others’ lives.

But no one in all the posts above limited the ev only to the cities, Tesla going broke is not simply brushed aside as you try to, and I looked at buying an Alta, and will most likely buy the Honda when it comes out, as long as I have CHOICES to buy whatever I want. If the industry tried to force E bikes down my throat, I’d stick with my 2-strokes and 4-strokes just to take a stance.

I love freedom.

Zacka 161 wrote:

There are many reasons why your argument is very typically flawed. Number 1 economy of scale, even if the grid didnt go green, the powerplants are...

There are many reasons why your argument is very typically flawed.

Number 1 economy of scale, even if the grid didnt go green, the powerplants are far more efficient at energy production than individual vehicles. So make every vehicle electric and continue to add coal powerplants and overall emissions go down.

Saying 'we burn coal for everything so dont change anything' is very patently ridiculous.

An intelligent person would say 'we burn coal for everything and have done for a long ass time, maybe its time to update to a more efficient technology, we also used to use carrier pigeons to send messages, and that was replaced, and planes mostly replaced trains for long distance transport and hey maybe life can move on from innefficient, dirty, expensive, heavily subsidised, outdated electricity production'

Patrick Potato wrote:

All the examples you used for modern replacements actually pollute more than the things they replaced and require more fossil fuels to manufacture, but maybe I’m...

All the examples you used for modern replacements actually pollute more than the things they replaced and require more fossil fuels to manufacture, but maybe I’m not an intelligent person. ?

KDXGarage wrote:

Would you be OK with an air wall, so that the American air can stay in America, and the bad air from China can be kept...

Would you be OK with an air wall, so that the American air can stay in America, and the bad air from China can be kept out?

Sorry to stoop down to where it makes sense to you.

Good luck to us all with CARB.

kkawboy14 wrote:

The problem is there is no local anything and people want what they want when they want it! I want a blueberry right now! They aren’t...

The problem is there is no local anything and people want what they want when they want it!

I want a blueberry right now! They aren’t in season here right now! So, go to China and get me one and ship it back here to Texas!

Shipping and trucking of products around the world is the largest of all problems.

Zacka 161 wrote:

There are many reasons why your argument is very typically flawed. Number 1 economy of scale, even if the grid didnt go green, the powerplants are...

There are many reasons why your argument is very typically flawed.

Number 1 economy of scale, even if the grid didnt go green, the powerplants are far more efficient at energy production than individual vehicles. So make every vehicle electric and continue to add coal powerplants and overall emissions go down.

Saying 'we burn coal for everything so dont change anything' is very patently ridiculous.

An intelligent person would say 'we burn coal for everything and have done for a long ass time, maybe its time to update to a more efficient technology, we also used to use carrier pigeons to send messages, and that was replaced, and planes mostly replaced trains for long distance transport and hey maybe life can move on from innefficient, dirty, expensive, heavily subsidised, outdated electricity production'

Patrick Potato wrote:

All the examples you used for modern replacements actually pollute more than the things they replaced and require more fossil fuels to manufacture, but maybe I’m...

All the examples you used for modern replacements actually pollute more than the things they replaced and require more fossil fuels to manufacture, but maybe I’m not an intelligent person. ?

Zacka 161 wrote:

Oh yeah you are 100% correct and that is why people are looking to take inventions that changed the world (transport) and reduce its impact on...

Oh yeah you are 100% correct and that is why people are looking to take inventions that changed the world (transport) and reduce its impact on the natural world.

Nobody is saying, hey let’s go back to the Stone Age. They are saying, let’s make what we have now better while also improving the user experience and reducing the countries dependence on fossil fuels.

kkawboy14 wrote:

The problem is there is no local anything and people want what they want when they want it! I want a blueberry right now! They aren’t...

The problem is there is no local anything and people want what they want when they want it!

I want a blueberry right now! They aren’t in season here right now! So, go to China and get me one and ship it back here to Texas!

Shipping and trucking of products around the world is the largest of all problems.

Zacka 161 wrote:

100% true and why electric trucks and delivery vehicles should be the first and the easiest to replace. Planes and Ships are much much harder doe...

100% true and why electric trucks and delivery vehicles should be the first and the easiest to replace.

Planes and Ships are much much harder doe to the necessity to go very very long journeys without ‘refueling’. Trucks in the other hand could use a network, get breaks for charging and reduce maintainence, increase reliability, increased safety and increased comfort for the drivers. It’s really a no brainer.

Zacka 161 wrote:

Clearly you didnt actually read any of the posts, just skimmed the rebuttals... Im 100 percent pro EV-Only (in cities), pro Hybrid only everywhere else until...

Clearly you didnt actually read any of the posts, just skimmed the rebuttals...

Im 100 percent pro EV-Only (in cities), pro Hybrid only everywhere else until electric recharge is fast and as prevelant as gas stations.... And in 20 years it very likely will be

Tesla is going broke, which is his bad business management, but has prove electric cars and that people want them... So maybe check out where every other manufacturer is going and developing before you use this as a sign to be anti EV.

Alta proved the viability and desire for a quality electric motocross bike, however IMO the inability to compete in Pro or Am cost it dearly... How will that change moving forward? Honda will let you know.

Graybeard wrote:

Zac, you’re trying too hard to push your agenda, my friend. I’ve been on the frontlines of the environmental battlefield since the 1980s, up and down...

Zac, you’re trying too hard to push your agenda, my friend. I’ve been on the frontlines of the environmental battlefield since the 1980s, up and down the coast of California, in the toughest APCDs in the state. I was into alternative fuel solutions in the 1970s (look up Gerald Schaflander and his Hy-Fuel—really caught my attention as a teen ager) but the environmental movement isn’t about clean air, clean fuel, better technology, etc., it’s about a different type of power. The power to control others’ lives.

But no one in all the posts above limited the ev only to the cities, Tesla going broke is not simply brushed aside as you try to, and I looked at buying an Alta, and will most likely buy the Honda when it comes out, as long as I have CHOICES to buy whatever I want. If the industry tried to force E bikes down my throat, I’d stick with my 2-strokes and 4-strokes just to take a stance.

I love freedom.

Zacka 161 wrote:

I like how people try and say clean energy is there to control peoples lives - in a lot of places you can get a rebate...

I like how people try and say clean energy is there to control peoples lives - in a lot of places you can get a rebate to go solar and essentially have more freedom. Than being plugged in to father coal.

I like how people think clean energy is about control when their dirty energy lobbies the shit out of their elected government to keep their tax cuts, permits, rebates, etc etc etc... That IS power, That IS control.


I’m saying that a Clearly defined target should be set to make cities EV only in X amount for years and for a sustainable national network of chargers using majority renewables should be set up. America lives under the thumb of the oil companies, yet think it is ‘freedom’. Just take a look how many ex lobbyists make up the cabinet.... and compare that to the amount of scientists or experts in their field... it’s startling. Why?? Because money buys control and influence...

The problem with comparing it to the roll out of petrol stations is that cars preventing a massive leap forward in user experience and productivity over horses. EV has very little end user experience change, although in saying that Self Driving cars will be a leap forward as significant as the Automobile...

Patrick Potato wrote:

All the examples you used for modern replacements actually pollute more than the things they replaced and require more fossil fuels to manufacture, but maybe I’m...

All the examples you used for modern replacements actually pollute more than the things they replaced and require more fossil fuels to manufacture, but maybe I’m not an intelligent person. ?

Zacka 161 wrote:

Oh yeah you are 100% correct and that is why people are looking to take inventions that changed the world (transport) and reduce its impact on...

Oh yeah you are 100% correct and that is why people are looking to take inventions that changed the world (transport) and reduce its impact on the natural world.

Nobody is saying, hey let’s go back to the Stone Age. They are saying, let’s make what we have now better while also improving the user experience and reducing the countries dependence on fossil fuels.

coastlinecascot wrote:

The uk essentially is going back to the stone age. By burning hardwood for energy in the name of renewable energy.

jeffro503 wrote:

That idiot chick is living in la-la land. Before you actually ban something....it might be wise to have a viable and logical replacement. And just like...

That idiot chick is living in la-la land. Before you actually ban something....it might be wise to have a viable and logical replacement. And just like NY , if you tax the shit out of people....guess what?.....They leave. We are all for clean air and so forth , but Christ this isn't the land of rainbow's and unicorn's and we can't get to our jobs on flying fucking carpet's!

Motoxdoc wrote:

The writing is on the wall, ICE’s will go the way of the doe-doe bird (sp?). Honda sees it... The sooner you except this, the less...

The writing is on the wall, ICE’s will go the way of the doe-doe bird (sp?). Honda sees it... The sooner you except this, the less chance you’ll need therapy!
As for your arbitrary complaint about taxes, I just moved to Illinois where they don’t like to. I will promise you the people here pay more in car repairs hitting potholes then they would if they each paid a little more in taxes. Every day I see 6-8 firemen panhandling on a busy street corner....I kid you not! Their electrical grid is as old as BobbyM and I don’t even want to know about the condition of their drinking and waste water treatmen! You can complain all you want about taxes and progress....or embrace how they are related and focus on optimizing both for your communities benefits.
Btw, what does phasing out ICE’s for electric have to do with rainbows, unicorns and jobs? Are you worried about putting the coal miners back underground?....are you worried about the oil industry’s bottom line? People will always fight progress...

jeffro503 wrote:

I am not against clean energy or vehicle's that are battery powered. What I said was , before you just ban something , you better have...

I am not against clean energy or vehicle's that are battery powered. What I said was , before you just ban something , you better have a viable replacement. That doesn't mean just inventing it , it means being able to make it so people can afford it , is easily available and cost worthy. Right now , electric power is NOT that! And again , I'm all for anything that could help clean this planet up , but until it's actually 100% ready to take over , ICE will still rule the street's. Just one out of probably 10,000 example's here.....but I drive big extended cargo van's for my construction work. I have to have that! There isn't even an option for an electric vehicle out there for me , or the thousands upon thousand's of other contractor's that use them. What about logging truck , cement trucks , dump trucks , ship's , airplane's , train's.......so where I'm going? There is nothing out there right now that can / will replace them. Sure.......we can replace the little beep-beep mom and pop car with a battery operated one.........but what about everything else?

KDXGarage wrote:

Thank you to AUS guy to come preach in a CARB thread. Look to your northern neighbors in India, China, etc. concerning MASSIVE pollution before yet...

Thank you to AUS guy to come preach in a CARB thread.

Look to your northern neighbors in India, China, etc. concerning MASSIVE pollution before yet again complaining about the USA as being the bad guy.

Graybeard wrote:

Zac, you’re trying too hard to push your agenda, my friend. I’ve been on the frontlines of the environmental battlefield since the 1980s, up and down...

Zac, you’re trying too hard to push your agenda, my friend. I’ve been on the frontlines of the environmental battlefield since the 1980s, up and down the coast of California, in the toughest APCDs in the state. I was into alternative fuel solutions in the 1970s (look up Gerald Schaflander and his Hy-Fuel—really caught my attention as a teen ager) but the environmental movement isn’t about clean air, clean fuel, better technology, etc., it’s about a different type of power. The power to control others’ lives.

But no one in all the posts above limited the ev only to the cities, Tesla going broke is not simply brushed aside as you try to, and I looked at buying an Alta, and will most likely buy the Honda when it comes out, as long as I have CHOICES to buy whatever I want. If the industry tried to force E bikes down my throat, I’d stick with my 2-strokes and 4-strokes just to take a stance.

I love freedom.

Zacka 161 wrote:

I like how people try and say clean energy is there to control peoples lives - in a lot of places you can get a rebate...

I like how people try and say clean energy is there to control peoples lives - in a lot of places you can get a rebate to go solar and essentially have more freedom. Than being plugged in to father coal.

I like how people think clean energy is about control when their dirty energy lobbies the shit out of their elected government to keep their tax cuts, permits, rebates, etc etc etc... That IS power, That IS control.


I’m saying that a Clearly defined target should be set to make cities EV only in X amount for years and for a sustainable national network of chargers using majority renewables should be set up. America lives under the thumb of the oil companies, yet think it is ‘freedom’. Just take a look how many ex lobbyists make up the cabinet.... and compare that to the amount of scientists or experts in their field... it’s startling. Why?? Because money buys control and influence...

The problem with comparing it to the roll out of petrol stations is that cars preventing a massive leap forward in user experience and productivity over horses. EV has very little end user experience change, although in saying that Self Driving cars will be a leap forward as significant as the Automobile...

just James wrote:

"You can get a rebate to go solar". Where do you think that rebate comes from? Is it that magic government money that falls from the...

"You can get a rebate to go solar".
Where do you think that rebate comes from? Is it that magic government money that falls from the sky?