Broc Tickle discusses his future

TJ 755
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5/17/2018 11:44am
for what its worth he is on a husky at GH as we speak. Canada?
billyp330
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5/17/2018 11:52am
TJ 755 wrote:
for what its worth he is on a husky at GH as we speak. Canada?
Tickle is?
5/17/2018 12:21pm
DonM wrote:
Good article Chris but there are some assumptions and falsehoods in it. First you're assuming that the tainted supplement was supplied by Aldon and not something...
Good article Chris but there are some assumptions and falsehoods in it. First you're assuming that the tainted supplement was supplied by Aldon and not something that Broc mistakenly took on his own. Broc even states in his interview that he had the supplements tested that were supplied by Aldon and they came back negative, he has zero reason to protect KTM or Aldon...he knows it's on him.
Unfortunately it's in the KTM contracts (from Austria) of what happens when a rider tests positive in a drug test, so I wouldn't call that the easy way out. All of Aldon's riders have been tested throughout the season and one is on the list to be on call for random tests for the year...they all have been tested clean on multiple occasions.
It's really unfortunate with what's happened to Broc...it's actually unfair...I hope he is successful in arguing his case so a precedent can be set for future penalties in MX/SX that makes more sense in terms of the average career span for racers.
Tickle and Marvin are the only Baker guys that have been tested. Anderson, Nope and 250 Supercross riders are NOT subject to tests.
ML512 wrote:
Incorrect, Anderson has been tested this season through the where-abouts program in an out of competition test.
In the whereabouts is different than an actual test.
5/17/2018 12:43pm
Hypothetically, if Broc went through his bathroom cupboard after finding out he failed a drug test and discovered he had an off the shelf medicine or supplement which likely would have caused the failed test, do you think he would announce it or just keep it quiet and continue to plead innocence?

The Shop

ML512
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Tickle and Marvin are the only Baker guys that have been tested. Anderson, Nope and 250 Supercross riders are NOT subject to tests.
ML512 wrote:
Incorrect, Anderson has been tested this season through the where-abouts program in an out of competition test.
In the whereabouts is different than an actual test.
Blood and urine, same list of substances are tested for. Out of Como test gas higher chance of nailing someone on something they take between races which has a short half-life.
5/17/2018 12:58pm
Thanks for clarifying, I forgot Taft had raced a few 450 races. Whats the reason for 250 SX guys not being tested? Are the classes still...
Thanks for clarifying, I forgot Taft had raced a few 450 races.

Whats the reason for 250 SX guys not being tested? Are the classes still technically split between sanctioning body's, with the AMA overseeing 250 and FIM overseeing 450? I remember some sort of arrangement like that years back
avidchimp wrote:
Correct. 250's in SX are not an FIM sanctioned class.
Equal points should equate to equal testing. #250too



And yes, I know the points structure isn't an FIM/WADA deal.
three9zero
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5/17/2018 2:21pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Yep. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/05/17/262363/s1200_Screenshot_20180517_160449.jpg[/img]
Yep.

Oh, so he's riding for Husky in Calgary this weekend then.......
St Ann More
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5/17/2018 2:27pm
Tickle and Marvin are the only Baker guys that have been tested. Anderson, Nope and 250 Supercross riders are NOT subject to tests.
ML512 wrote:
Incorrect, Anderson has been tested this season through the where-abouts program in an out of competition test.
In the whereabouts is different than an actual test.
What's different about the actual test?
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5/17/2018 2:39pm
three9zero wrote:
Oh, so he's riding for Husky in Calgary this weekend then.......
Not necessarily but who knows at this point. Says he's got options with teams. Easy transition from KTM to Husky. It's practically the same bike and no one rides for Husky up here. Still part of the KTM family without being under the KTM tent. From RedBull to Rockstar.

I could see that happening.
EngIceDave
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5/17/2018 2:40pm
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant.

The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of the court (arbitrator) feign ignorance or lack of knowledge of something inadvertently ingested, and plea for mercy.

Seems to me, the more to deny, fight or battle, the more those in charge will push back with a longer sentence.

Don't argue it, accept the results and beg for mercy....simple as that

Once re-instated, deny it and say you only said it to be re-instated
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5/17/2018 2:43pm
ML512 wrote:
Incorrect, Anderson has been tested this season through the where-abouts program in an out of competition test.
In the whereabouts is different than an actual test.
What's different about the actual test?
Don't think there's anything different. It's just that instead of being tested at the races he can be tested anywhere, anytime, anyplace without notice.
mattyhamz2
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5/17/2018 2:58pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Yep. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/05/17/262363/s1200_Screenshot_20180517_160449.jpg[/img]
Yep.

three9zero wrote:
Oh, so he's riding for Husky in Calgary this weekend then.......
That didn't take long.
wacker
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5/17/2018 3:04pm
I think before anyone can really even form an opinion on this they need to research what he got busted for, what it is, and what it does. If you honestly think that Broc would intentionally take something so ridiculous to up his performance with what he had at stake you have to be crazy. It's a supplement found in shitty pre-workout. There is no way it would be provided by Aldon, especially with the scrutiny is riders are already under. Yes, he had it in his system and it was detected. Even if he did purposely take a supplement with it in it, the "GAINZ" aren't going to get him to the podium. The case and the punishment is ridiculous.
davistld01
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5/17/2018 3:05pm
I feel bad for Tickle...but then again, I felt bad for Stew also. I was jazzed for Broc to land a ride on KTM when he did. Tickle is one of those nice guys who you just WANT to be not-guilty...but, oh well. It is what it is.

It might wind up better for him on the Husky financially up North where he could be a more consistent podium guy, and a potential winner...than a guy here who is only a potential top-5 guy. Orange or white...it's all about the money at the end of the day, right?
ando
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5/17/2018 3:10pm
tingo wrote:
You can't distinguish between accidental and intentional, and I'm not suggesting you can, so the issue isn't using discretion to say a "nice" guy like Broc...
You can't distinguish between accidental and intentional, and I'm not suggesting you can, so the issue isn't using discretion to say a "nice" guy like Broc should get a pass because we believe him, the issue is that the penalties are structured to throw the baby out with the bath water. Lower the penalties for first time offenses for these lesser PEDs that are unlikely to be abused in the first place. The list of stuff these guys get tested for is huge and it is entirely plausible to have one of these substances in your body with no clue how it got there.

IMO, Broc deserves a fine, loss of points and purse for this SX season, a ban on the rest of the SX season, and is placed on probationary testing (test him at every round if you want) for a year. Any future positive tests result in much harsher penalties. THIS arrangement still discourages PED use in the sport, without totally screwing up one's career over what very well could be an innocent mistake. IF Broc (or any other athlete) consumed something intentionally, the above penalties should still teach them a lesson, and also nail their ass if they get caught again with more frequent testing.
The implication that it’s too hard to comply because it’s complicated is undermined by the fact that hundreds of riders over the years have successfully managed to not fail drug tests. If it was that easy to get tripped up we’d be hearing about positive tests all the time.

And when are you guys going to realise that most of the world has zero tolerance for drugs in sport? Why do you think that sanctioning bodies like FIM and MX Sports, in addition to hundreds of others around the world, sign up to the WADA code, either directly or indirectly through the respective affiliated national bodies? Why do you think that companies like KTM and Redbull have strong policies on anti-doping? Why do you think minimum penalties have gradually increased over the years to what they are now? Why do the relevant authorities and disaffected parties relentlessly pursue cases like Lance Armstrong’s and others?

Answer those questions and you’ll get the answer to why “soft” penalties for first time offenders and graduated suspensions for subsequent infractions aren’t in the code.
EngIceDave
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5/17/2018 3:15pm
wacker wrote:
I think before anyone can really even form an opinion on this they need to research what he got busted for, what it is, and what...
I think before anyone can really even form an opinion on this they need to research what he got busted for, what it is, and what it does. If you honestly think that Broc would intentionally take something so ridiculous to up his performance with what he had at stake you have to be crazy. It's a supplement found in shitty pre-workout. There is no way it would be provided by Aldon, especially with the scrutiny is riders are already under. Yes, he had it in his system and it was detected. Even if he did purposely take a supplement with it in it, the "GAINZ" aren't going to get him to the podium. The case and the punishment is ridiculous.
Not passing judgement, but based on your post...

1. illegal is illegal. He had a clearly stated illegal substance in his system, whether 1.0 or .001....it's not allowed at any level

2. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks is "right" or "wrong" or how much it'll enhance performance, it's a clearly listed illegal chemical. There is no "grey" it's black or white. The punishment is clearly outlined, so that is no surprise as well.

3. If not supplied by Baker Factory, and I doubt it was, it had to be ingested unknowingly and meaning he had to have gone "off the reservation" in his nutrition plan


Bottomline, at least in my opinion, there is not much of a case to fight.
I feel bad for the guy, but none of this is a surprise on paper.
ando
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5/17/2018 3:21pm
wacker wrote:
I think before anyone can really even form an opinion on this they need to research what he got busted for, what it is, and what...
I think before anyone can really even form an opinion on this they need to research what he got busted for, what it is, and what it does. If you honestly think that Broc would intentionally take something so ridiculous to up his performance with what he had at stake you have to be crazy. It's a supplement found in shitty pre-workout. There is no way it would be provided by Aldon, especially with the scrutiny is riders are already under. Yes, he had it in his system and it was detected. Even if he did purposely take a supplement with it in it, the "GAINZ" aren't going to get him to the podium. The case and the punishment is ridiculous.
Tell me, if Broc Tickle is an example of an honest, hard working rider who would never resort to PEDs in any form, then who are the types of riders that you would not assume are automatically innocent? They’re all good guys, right up to the moment they get caught. I’d go as far as to say there’s absolutely zero correlation between personality/image and the likelihood of being caught using PEDs.

And also tell me, if a drug like this one is detected in a test, how do you tell the difference between an accident and the mis-timing of a systematic, deliberate out-of-competition drug program?
APLMAN99
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5/17/2018 5:16pm
billyp330 wrote:
I hope that was written before the recent video was released as in the video Broc states he tested Bakers supplement and it came back clean...
I hope that was written before the recent video was released as in the video Broc states he tested Bakers supplement and it came back clean. He also states that he doesn't feel wronged by KTM in any way and expected his termination when he received his B sample results.

I also feel like KTM should stick with him, however I'd imagine his contract wasn't getting renewed regardless of this whole ordeal so why would they keep him now that he is suspended?
It was, but there are more supplements to be tested. He won’t say it for PR reasons but KTM is taking the chickenshit route. Hats off...
It was, but there are more supplements to be tested. He won’t say it for PR reasons but KTM is taking the chickenshit route. Hats off to Alpinestars for supporting Broc through the entire process.
ML512 wrote:
Pretty much every team has a similar contract and there’s currently another rider who got booted from his team for a failed test...which I’m guesisng should...
Pretty much every team has a similar contract and there’s currently another rider who got booted from his team for a failed test...which I’m guesisng should come up soon enough.

KTM faces a problem with sponsors, many could sue due to parts of their contracts that cover riders and illegal substance use. Brands like Red Bull won’t touch professional road cycling due to not wanting any relation to this. In cycling, most teams drop a rider that tests positive as it can get them fined by sponsors or even have them bail entirely. It’s corporate policy and it’s in Broc’s contract, that’s why Broc mentions knowing what the outcome would be.
Well, Red Bull hired a man who was convicted of doping young athletes without their knowledge to run their Diagnostic and Training Center, so it isn't like Red Bull is all that mortified by doping practices.........!
resetjet
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5/17/2018 5:53pm
Time to start a biz, testing other athletes each week to make sure they are clean. A hit like this no major athelete can afford to get. Tickle test.
resetjet
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5/17/2018 6:08pm
This from wikipedia:

“MotoGP rider Anthony West was suspended for one month by the FIM International Disciplinary Court (CDI) on 29 October 2012 after testing positive for the drug on 20 May 2012 at the French Grand Prix. This was increased retroactively to an 18-month suspension, starting from 20 May 2012, on 28 November 2013 after an appeal by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).[29]”
ML512
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5/17/2018 6:49pm
resetjet wrote:
This from wikipedia: “MotoGP rider Anthony West was suspended for one month by the FIM International Disciplinary Court (CDI) on 29 October 2012 after testing positive...
This from wikipedia:

“MotoGP rider Anthony West was suspended for one month by the FIM International Disciplinary Court (CDI) on 29 October 2012 after testing positive for the drug on 20 May 2012 at the French Grand Prix. This was increased retroactively to an 18-month suspension, starting from 20 May 2012, on 28 November 2013 after an appeal by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).[29]”
That’s what happens if the FIM tries to be lenient without WADA’s blessing, WADA will take into court if it doesn’t meet or come close to their recommended sentence.
kkawboy14
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5/17/2018 6:52pm
EngIceDave wrote:
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant. The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of...
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant.

The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of the court (arbitrator) feign ignorance or lack of knowledge of something inadvertently ingested, and plea for mercy.

Seems to me, the more to deny, fight or battle, the more those in charge will push back with a longer sentence.

Don't argue it, accept the results and beg for mercy....simple as that

Once re-instated, deny it and say you only said it to be re-instated
“Beg for mercy”

That only works with people who actually apply reason and compassion in their decision making!

These guys don’t care, none of them on either side, the powers in moto and testing!

He is a cheater, got his sentence, next......
avidchimp
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5/17/2018 7:01pm
EngIceDave wrote:
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant. The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of...
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant.

The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of the court (arbitrator) feign ignorance or lack of knowledge of something inadvertently ingested, and plea for mercy.

Seems to me, the more to deny, fight or battle, the more those in charge will push back with a longer sentence.

Don't argue it, accept the results and beg for mercy....simple as that

Once re-instated, deny it and say you only said it to be re-instated
Agreed.

Tickle should NOT ride in Canada if he wants any hope of getting a lighter penalty (WADA doesn't look fondly on that, sanctioned or not). James started racing outdoors after getting busted and it did NOT help his case, and it won't help Tickle. Worst case is he goes to Canada next year if things don't work out.
TXDirt
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5/17/2018 7:04pm
EngIceDave wrote:
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant. The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of...
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant.

The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of the court (arbitrator) feign ignorance or lack of knowledge of something inadvertently ingested, and plea for mercy.

Seems to me, the more to deny, fight or battle, the more those in charge will push back with a longer sentence.

Don't argue it, accept the results and beg for mercy....simple as that

Once re-instated, deny it and say you only said it to be re-instated
kkawboy14 wrote:
“Beg for mercy” That only works with people who actually apply reason and compassion in their decision making! These guys don’t care, none of them on...
“Beg for mercy”

That only works with people who actually apply reason and compassion in their decision making!

These guys don’t care, none of them on either side, the powers in moto and testing!

He is a cheater, got his sentence, next......
There is something poetic and fitting about their “don’t give two fucks” attitude though.

They have busted the biggest PED crooks in all sports and have never wavered.

The samples say what they say they are.

I give them props for never caving.
avidchimp
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5/17/2018 7:11pm
TXDirt wrote:
There is something poetic and fitting about their “don’t give two fucks” attitude though. They have busted the biggest PED crooks in all sports and have...
There is something poetic and fitting about their “don’t give two fucks” attitude though.

They have busted the biggest PED crooks in all sports and have never wavered.

The samples say what they say they are.

I give them props for never caving.
There is leniency when actual substances and intent are taken into consideration. Pissing off WADA by just saying "fuck it, I'm going racing anyway" isn't going to help his case. He can afford to take a summer off and hope for a just decision.
kkawboy14
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5/17/2018 7:19pm Edited Date/Time 5/17/2018 7:20pm
EngIceDave wrote:
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant. The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of...
I may have my opinion, but that's irrelevant.

The smartest thing to do, to get the shortest sentence is to throw himself on the mercy of the court (arbitrator) feign ignorance or lack of knowledge of something inadvertently ingested, and plea for mercy.

Seems to me, the more to deny, fight or battle, the more those in charge will push back with a longer sentence.

Don't argue it, accept the results and beg for mercy....simple as that

Once re-instated, deny it and say you only said it to be re-instated
kkawboy14 wrote:
“Beg for mercy” That only works with people who actually apply reason and compassion in their decision making! These guys don’t care, none of them on...
“Beg for mercy”

That only works with people who actually apply reason and compassion in their decision making!

These guys don’t care, none of them on either side, the powers in moto and testing!

He is a cheater, got his sentence, next......
TXDirt wrote:
There is something poetic and fitting about their “don’t give two fucks” attitude though. They have busted the biggest PED crooks in all sports and have...
There is something poetic and fitting about their “don’t give two fucks” attitude though.

They have busted the biggest PED crooks in all sports and have never wavered.

The samples say what they say they are.

I give them props for never caving.
Agreed! It can’t go both ways. They either have to remove emotion from the decision making or apply it in all cases.
Toosano
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5/17/2018 7:37pm
bowser977 wrote:
People just cannot accept he failed a drug test. Has anyone else failed this year? No. Many were tested also. He didn't eat ice cream one...
People just cannot accept he failed a drug test. Has anyone else failed this year? No. Many were tested also. He didn't eat ice cream one night and fail a drug test. Grinning
Pretty much my thought, too. I'm always cynical until something factual changes my mind.
5/17/2018 9:22pm
ML512 wrote:
Incorrect, Anderson has been tested this season through the where-abouts program in an out of competition test.
In the whereabouts is different than an actual test.
What's different about the actual test?
Wearabouts isn’t a test, you have to let them where you are at all times. Doesn’t mean the showed up and tested him. He told me he wasn’t tested this year.
Robgvx
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5/18/2018 12:04am Edited Date/Time 5/18/2018 12:05am
ML512 wrote:
That’s what happens if the FIM tries to be lenient without WADA’s blessing, WADA will take into court if it doesn’t meet or come close to...
That’s what happens if the FIM tries to be lenient without WADA’s blessing, WADA will take into court if it doesn’t meet or come close to their recommended sentence.
So from that, here’s a question for FTE.

What’s the jurisdiction of CAS? If people here say that any FIM ban is an in-house, non-legally binding penalty and unenforceable at a non-FIM race, how come CAS can extend that ban? Using PEDs isn’t illegal in law is it? So how can a court intervene in a private programme?

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