Bike vs rider

level
Profile picture for user level
Posts
6185
Joined
8/27/2006
Location
Acworth, GA US
level
Edited Date/Time 8/21/2015 12:31pm
It seems at the pro level the settings and work on the bike mean more than the actual talent. You hear the top pros all the time saying the bike is not where it needs to be which tells me that unless the bike is 100% then you are not going to win no matter how good you are.

What this also tells me is maybe everyone out there should have the chance to ride the same equipment but hey I am not a liberal so I'm not gonna go that far. The top riders got there because of hard work and talent and then they excelled in there career with the help of a team and good bike. However, how many riders have fallen back because of bike settings not being where they need to be.
|
Tpog496
Profile picture for user Tpog496
Posts
1282
Joined
9/16/2014
Location
MN US
Tpog496 8/21/2015 6:51am
8/21/2015 6:51am
Most riders are complete head cases, myself included. It's a lot easier to say "we struggled with set up", than it is to say "Yea I'm just scared to hit those whoops today" It's not the bike trust me.
TXDirt
Profile picture for user TXDirt
Posts
7399
Joined
7/29/2015
Location
Plano, TX US
TXDirt 8/21/2015 6:52am
8/21/2015 6:52am
It's 95% rider and 5% bike. At the top level everyone is fast so that 5% becomes very important because it can be the difference between a podium or top 10.

The riders are very mental. They need confidence in the bike. This doesn't at all mean they give a crap about seeing dyno charts and weight loss with titanium.

They need to mentally feel like they have a great bike. They physically must feel comfortable on the bike and have mental confidence to be able to ride the edge.
ATKpilot99
Profile picture for user ATKpilot99
Posts
9820
Joined
4/13/2010
Location
Lake Geneva, WI US
ATKpilot99 8/21/2015 6:58am
8/21/2015 6:58am
Then you have the rare rider like RC who seemed to be able to ride whatever was given to him.
level
Profile picture for user level
Posts
6185
Joined
8/27/2006
Location
Acworth, GA US
level 8/21/2015 7:06am
8/21/2015 7:06am
TXDirt wrote:
It's 95% rider and 5% bike. At the top level everyone is fast so that 5% becomes very important because it can be the difference between...
It's 95% rider and 5% bike. At the top level everyone is fast so that 5% becomes very important because it can be the difference between a podium or top 10.

The riders are very mental. They need confidence in the bike. This doesn't at all mean they give a crap about seeing dyno charts and weight loss with titanium.

They need to mentally feel like they have a great bike. They physically must feel comfortable on the bike and have mental confidence to be able to ride the edge.
Good post. That's kind of my thought is that most of them or at least top 5 are so close together that if one bike suspension or settings is better it could be the difference of a half or 1 second a lap.

The Shop

See All »
731chopper
Profile picture for user 731chopper
Posts
4084
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX US
Fantasy
355th
731chopper 8/21/2015 7:19am
8/21/2015 7:19am
TXDirt wrote:
It's 95% rider and 5% bike. At the top level everyone is fast so that 5% becomes very important because it can be the difference between...
It's 95% rider and 5% bike. At the top level everyone is fast so that 5% becomes very important because it can be the difference between a podium or top 10.

The riders are very mental. They need confidence in the bike. This doesn't at all mean they give a crap about seeing dyno charts and weight loss with titanium.

They need to mentally feel like they have a great bike. They physically must feel comfortable on the bike and have mental confidence to be able to ride the edge.
^This I feel is 100% correct.
IWreckALot
Profile picture for user IWreckALot
Posts
8677
Joined
3/12/2011
Location
Fort Worth, TX US
IWreckALot 8/21/2015 7:24am
8/21/2015 7:24am
On a non professional note, I ride with a guy that insists he can feel the difference from click to click and ALWAYS complains about bike setup. He's a B rider at best. Probably a C rider. Personally I try not to pay so much attention to what the bike is doing as much as I pay attention to what I'm doing and how I'm reacting to the bike. I don't know, it is just more enjoyable to ride if you're not paying attention to every little thing the bike is doing.

I have however, practiced a corner several times throughout the day and changed my suspension settings, and I could feel a huge difference. So I know there is a lot of advantage to having a bike setup properly. But at some point, where I was setting my suspension up for that corner, I was probably sacrificing somewhere else. Even pros will struggle with the eternally.

As for riders like Roczen, which is probably the unspoken rider we're talking about here, I agree 100% with TXDirt. The little amount that the bike can matter, will make a HUGE difference.
level
Profile picture for user level
Posts
6185
Joined
8/27/2006
Location
Acworth, GA US
level 8/21/2015 7:38am
8/21/2015 7:38am
Suspension and gearing are 2 of the most important things I have ever dealt with when riding. With a good suspension you feel on top of the world. Also, having the proper gearing can make the difference between clearing that double with ease or coming up short. That is just from a C/B riders perspective.

I guess with these guys going 30 minutes and need everything they can to excel the bike setup probably becomes more and more important and they can feel every little thing because they ride so much.
cwtoyota
Profile picture for user cwtoyota
Posts
1933
Joined
3/11/2013
Location
Tacoma, WA US
cwtoyota 8/21/2015 8:00am
8/21/2015 8:00am
IWreckALot wrote:
On a non professional note, I ride with a guy that insists he can feel the difference from click to click and ALWAYS complains about bike...
On a non professional note, I ride with a guy that insists he can feel the difference from click to click and ALWAYS complains about bike setup. He's a B rider at best. Probably a C rider. Personally I try not to pay so much attention to what the bike is doing as much as I pay attention to what I'm doing and how I'm reacting to the bike. I don't know, it is just more enjoyable to ride if you're not paying attention to every little thing the bike is doing.

I have however, practiced a corner several times throughout the day and changed my suspension settings, and I could feel a huge difference. So I know there is a lot of advantage to having a bike setup properly. But at some point, where I was setting my suspension up for that corner, I was probably sacrificing somewhere else. Even pros will struggle with the eternally.

As for riders like Roczen, which is probably the unspoken rider we're talking about here, I agree 100% with TXDirt. The little amount that the bike can matter, will make a HUGE difference.
I'm just a B class rider also, and I can feel the difference in small changes to the bike but that doesn't mean I need those changes to get along with a bike. I rarely complain about bike setup and rarely make a change on race-days.

My theory is find something that works well (the best compromise between important sections) and stick with it.
The riders who change their setup all the time are also having to re-learn the bike all the time. A familiar compromise is better on race day than a constant experimental setting. Familiarity is confidence of correction in many cases.

On the other hand, to your point about Roczen... I bought a new bike this month (YZ450F) and wouldn't have been able to race it without some chassis settings. I just didn't have any confidence in the handling until I got the balance corrected. If the gearing or the damping is a little off, no big deal, but chassis balance and lack of stability is a deal breaker. I can only imagine how much more critical that balanced feeling is at Kenny's speed.
sozo
Profile picture for user sozo
Posts
1170
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Palm Coast, FL US
sozo 8/21/2015 8:24am
8/21/2015 8:24am
And on this topic I will throw in look at RV this year. His bike was set up for US nationals which have very high speed flowing corners. He got to the tight GP tracks and could no longer steer with the rear like he could here. So he needed to change his balance on the bike from front to rear for faster transitions.
CarlinoJoeVideo
Profile picture for user CarlinoJoeVideo
Posts
7358
Joined
11/30/2013
Location
Portland/Los Angeles, CA US
Fantasy
2361st
CarlinoJoeVideo 8/21/2015 8:32am
8/21/2015 8:32am
To me there is an enjoyment about getting the bike, "dialed" in. The more and more I've been learning about suspension and what each change does, it gives me another goal at the track other than, "putting in my fastest lap."

I understand your thoughts on bike vs rider at the pro level and the mental side of that, but these guy are pushing the envelope and that 1/10th of a second difference advantage of being right or wrong on setup is the difference to 1st or 2nd place these days.
UpTiTe
Profile picture for user UpTiTe
Posts
7761
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
CA US
Fantasy
4109th
UpTiTe 8/21/2015 8:38am
8/21/2015 8:38am
Obviously talent is the majority of going fast, but when you're talking about top level riders, Bike setup is very very critical. When you're looking for a tenth here and a tenth there, setup is the most important aspect.
OldYZRider1
Profile picture for user OldYZRider1
Posts
848
Joined
7/10/2009
Location
Bushnell, IL US
OldYZRider1 8/21/2015 9:23am
8/21/2015 9:23am
In 2011 when Villopoto started running the 2012 chassis at Unadilla he looked much better on the bike than he had at any of the nationals up to that point. He won the championship over Dungey by 12 pts that year but only had a 1 point lead coming to Unadilla. I feel that mid-season chassis change put the championship in the bag for RV. It was a very distinct improvement like what we've seen with Dungey this year. He looks so much better on this new bike than he has previously.
Zracer
Profile picture for user Zracer
Posts
1479
Joined
2/17/2013
Location
Saint Clair, MI US
Zracer 8/21/2015 10:30am
8/21/2015 10:30am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Then you have the rare rider like RC who seemed to be able to ride whatever was given to him.
RC was also always super picky about his bike set up.
brimx153
Profile picture for user brimx153
Posts
3338
Joined
5/3/2012
Location
IE
brimx153 8/21/2015 12:11pm
8/21/2015 12:11pm
i really think there is alot of rider s nowadays who dont know what they want , and rely on the team to much to tell them . eg ,i have been in RC motor home when the tech came in and he was the one telling them what to change . in 06 , i was in with Everts after last practice at the MXON.. he got off the bike , then listed the things he wanted changed , 2 teeth on the back sproc , longer swinging arm , 10 mil diff off set . 2 clicks front . 3 clicks slow reb , different tire on the back . then he went on the race .no practice on the new setting or anything . i cant see many riders like this nowadays . and i thing its a big thing . you can only set a bike up to how good the riders feed back is .imo
coolhand
Profile picture for user coolhand
Posts
475
Joined
9/10/2006
Location
Atlanta, GA US
coolhand 8/21/2015 12:23pm
8/21/2015 12:23pm
RC was not Picky...if your going warp 9 speed you have to know what the bike is going to do.

Fact, no one ever saw how fast Ricky could really go. He had them all covered outdoors, he STILL

had more in the tank even when James was at his peak, now ponder that..
brimx153
Profile picture for user brimx153
Posts
3338
Joined
5/3/2012
Location
IE
brimx153 8/21/2015 12:31pm
8/21/2015 12:31pm
coolhand wrote:
RC was not Picky...if your going warp 9 speed you have to know what the bike is going to do. Fact, no one ever saw how...
RC was not Picky...if your going warp 9 speed you have to know what the bike is going to do.

Fact, no one ever saw how fast Ricky could really go. He had them all covered outdoors, he STILL

had more in the tank even when James was at his peak, now ponder that..
RC was very picky .just everyone bar him hated his settings

Post a reply to: Bike vs rider