Big Picture Analysis of Cooper Webb and Yamaha

Two races down and Yamaha and Cooper Webb are failing to live up to the hype and expectations.

Or are they?

There has been so much pre season talk and bench racing ahead of Cooper Webb's debut in the premier Supercross class, that I think perhaps it's time to step back and reassess the situation using a more objective long-term view.

Bear with me.

Let's get back to those expectations for a moment. On whose expectations are we judging his performance? I could be mistaken, but I don't recall hearing from Cooper or anyone on his team any specific goals for the season beyond learning the ropes, staying healthy, etc. Of course, he has made statements such as "hate to lose", "battle with those guys", etc, but those are simply generic, canned responses in my opinion and don't reflect the true state of affairs within the team. Other teams and riders state specific goals like "wins", "podiums", "top ten", etc.

I really don't think Cooper or anyone in his program are anywhere near ready to hit the "panic button". Heck, I bet they don't even have one of those in the Yamahauler.

It's no big secret that the reverse engined YZ450F has a less than stellar track record in pro racing in the USA, especially in Supercross. I think it's safe to say that this has negatively affected sales of that particular model and perhaps other Yamaha product by negative association.

I believe the company is keenly aware of this and has a plan to repair the damage and I believe that plan is in full effect now.

Here is what's happening with Yamaha, in my opinion. All just speculation on my part.

Yamaha and Cooper Webb are going to play it extremely safe this year in Supercross and probably will continue to do so until they start racing the 2018 bike. Word on the street is that there are some major changes coming.

From a marketing and bike sales perspective, what would make more sense? Have your top prospect and proven champion rider take risks to achieve mediocre results on soon to be obsolete equipment? Or, do you continue to develop the team, infrastructure, test components and allow your #1 rider to go out and learn the ropes without any pressure for results in his first year?

I think Yamaha sees a successful model in what Honda has done with Ken Roczen and their new bike.

Cooper appearing to "struggle" on the current bike should not surprise anyone. In fact, it should be expected. I'll go one step further and say it was planned.

This way Yamaha can completely close the book on the current generation bike and start a new, more successful legacy with the new one. One more season of less than stellar results in Supercross on the current bike isn't going to further damage it's reputation.

I want to believe they are taking a more long term, sustainable approach with Cooper.
|
1/18/2017 1:20am
I like what you're saying with that, it would make total sense especially with reed onboard too to help him from a rider perspective. Could do a bunch of testing on the 2018 bike this year too and have it ironed out well in advance of the 18 season.

Come 2018 coopers on a bike he's happy and comfortable with and with a team he's happy with. Then we'll see what he's got.
tempura
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1/18/2017 1:26am
I don't know.. It's hard to believe they've "planned" and set up his bike so he's uncomfortable, all in the name of bringing out a better bikeBlink lol
TXDirt
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1/18/2017 1:30am
I like the theory. My only question, if they are making big changes, wouldn't we see hear something? The 2018 models come out in what, 6 months? So they have already retooled the factory to make a completely different bike? Is this bike currently being tested in Japan? If so, where are the pics? If they start right now then maybe they would be 2019 bikes and not 2018.

Thoughts?
Crush
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1/18/2017 1:36am
The new bike better lose 10 pounds and hold an inside line. It appears Reed has got his bike to turn but lost his whoop speed... and Cooper bike looks as compliant as a stretch of 2x4.

If the 250 and 450 use the "same" frame, it's silly to me... why would you be ok thinking the same frame would work with the added weight and power etc?

The Shop

Crush
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1/18/2017 1:39am
tempura wrote:
I don't know.. It's hard to believe they've "planned" and set up his bike so he's uncomfortable, all in the name of bringing out a better...
I don't know.. It's hard to believe they've "planned" and set up his bike so he's uncomfortable, all in the name of bringing out a better bikeBlink lol
Don't think it's "planned", but generation wise it is due... 3 years down... and seeing the last real update was pretty minor and since then it's been two years of triple tree changes... and all their competition now has lighter, smaller, super good handling bikes that have negated the power advantage of the reverse engine.

The irony of the mass cg concept biting them in terms of handling is amazing. Innovate or die or innovate and die.
struth
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1/18/2017 1:41am
Opposite ,still got speed in whoops,n struggling in corners,watch his heat last week,around ,3 mistakes in.corners.
Crush
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1/18/2017 1:59am
struth wrote:
Opposite ,still got speed in whoops,n struggling in corners,watch his heat last week,around ,3 mistakes in.corners.
Really? I think he's lost a yard in the whoops for sure... But I don't think it's cornering great... I think it's cornering better than last year haha.

Wish he stayed red. I genuinely believe if he was 100% comfortable on the bike he could still do it. No way he has those podiums up Dungey's backside last year and he can't do it. Just needs to be comfortable.
kevin204
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1/18/2017 2:08am
struth wrote:
Opposite ,still got speed in whoops,n struggling in corners,watch his heat last week,around ,3 mistakes in.corners.
Crush wrote:
Really? I think he's lost a yard in the whoops for sure... But I don't think it's cornering great... I think it's cornering better than last...
Really? I think he's lost a yard in the whoops for sure... But I don't think it's cornering great... I think it's cornering better than last year haha.

Wish he stayed red. I genuinely believe if he was 100% comfortable on the bike he could still do it. No way he has those podiums up Dungey's backside last year and he can't do it. Just needs to be comfortable.
Agreed. If he was on that new Honda or a KTM/Husky, things would be going much differently.
philG
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1/18/2017 2:14am
Look at the fork settings in Pit Bits , Reed has his forks sticking way through the top yoke, Cooper does not.

This is 'wont turn 101' you cant run forks like that , and then complain it doesn't turn .
Crush
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1/18/2017 2:31am
Yep... but doesn't that kinda make you think well how far away are they?!

He's got the forks up, different lugs, clamps... what else?! And it might be to get initial bite, but is it compromising mid-corner? Or in the whoops? Or what else...

Hard being a Reed fan man... He's had a lot of years where he was maybe not on the best stuff, but when he's been comfortable, 03-04, 09, 11-12 there has been magic and he's great to watch.

Would have loved to see him truly comfortable and giving it a proper crack at 35!
MR. X
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1/18/2017 2:48am
Go as far as to say they planned it? Seems like a horrible business plan . Thats the equivalent of saying "I'm gonna pick up a 5 dollar hooker on dollar day ...but first ,let me cut the end off this rubber "
hillbilly
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1/18/2017 2:54am
In practice this past weekend on the sxlive show they reported he had jammed or hurt his wrist,several reported it in the practice discussion thread,I took that they were at the race.

Never heard a thing about it on the fs1 show.

Was that not what happened? Did he jam the previous broken wrist or not?
Fonzarelli
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1/18/2017 3:33am
I think the idea that they are content or even happy about the results is nuts. I think they are doing everything in their power to go faster, they want to win and win big every race, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Not many people expected Coop to be running with Roczen at this stage but I think everyone expected him to in the top 6 or 8 with some flashes of elite speed, maybe dicing with 3rd for a few laps or leading a heat for a few laps or something along those lines. So far he hasn't been close.

No, its not panic time. He will almost certainly get faster and I think everyone at Yamaha wants that ASAP, not next year.
struth
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1/18/2017 3:58am
Coop looks,terrible thru woops.imo
1/18/2017 4:03am
TXDirt wrote:
I like the theory. My only question, if they are making big changes, wouldn't we see hear something? The 2018 models come out in what, 6...
I like the theory. My only question, if they are making big changes, wouldn't we see hear something? The 2018 models come out in what, 6 months? So they have already retooled the factory to make a completely different bike? Is this bike currently being tested in Japan? If so, where are the pics? If they start right now then maybe they would be 2019 bikes and not 2018.

Thoughts?
The 18 Model already exists, is being tested, ridden, and will be raced in April. Motocross is much bigger than vital, instagram, and snapchat.
Crush
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1/18/2017 4:38am
struth wrote:
Coop looks,terrible thru woops.imo
If his wrist is busted, that won't be helping... Funny, I thought off-season before last in Au and MXdN he looked better than this off-season on the 450.
colonel
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1/18/2017 4:57am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2017 4:58am
Two races down and Yamaha and Cooper Webb are failing to live up to the hype and expectations. Or are they? There has been so much...
Two races down and Yamaha and Cooper Webb are failing to live up to the hype and expectations.

Or are they?

There has been so much pre season talk and bench racing ahead of Cooper Webb's debut in the premier Supercross class, that I think perhaps it's time to step back and reassess the situation using a more objective long-term view.

Bear with me.

Let's get back to those expectations for a moment. On whose expectations are we judging his performance? I could be mistaken, but I don't recall hearing from Cooper or anyone on his team any specific goals for the season beyond learning the ropes, staying healthy, etc. Of course, he has made statements such as "hate to lose", "battle with those guys", etc, but those are simply generic, canned responses in my opinion and don't reflect the true state of affairs within the team. Other teams and riders state specific goals like "wins", "podiums", "top ten", etc.

I really don't think Cooper or anyone in his program are anywhere near ready to hit the "panic button". Heck, I bet they don't even have one of those in the Yamahauler.

It's no big secret that the reverse engined YZ450F has a less than stellar track record in pro racing in the USA, especially in Supercross. I think it's safe to say that this has negatively affected sales of that particular model and perhaps other Yamaha product by negative association.

I believe the company is keenly aware of this and has a plan to repair the damage and I believe that plan is in full effect now.

Here is what's happening with Yamaha, in my opinion. All just speculation on my part.

Yamaha and Cooper Webb are going to play it extremely safe this year in Supercross and probably will continue to do so until they start racing the 2018 bike. Word on the street is that there are some major changes coming.

From a marketing and bike sales perspective, what would make more sense? Have your top prospect and proven champion rider take risks to achieve mediocre results on soon to be obsolete equipment? Or, do you continue to develop the team, infrastructure, test components and allow your #1 rider to go out and learn the ropes without any pressure for results in his first year?

I think Yamaha sees a successful model in what Honda has done with Ken Roczen and their new bike.

Cooper appearing to "struggle" on the current bike should not surprise anyone. In fact, it should be expected. I'll go one step further and say it was planned.

This way Yamaha can completely close the book on the current generation bike and start a new, more successful legacy with the new one. One more season of less than stellar results in Supercross on the current bike isn't going to further damage it's reputation.

I want to believe they are taking a more long term, sustainable approach with Cooper.
@What'sStoppingYou?
You need to get into fiction and fantasy writing, this is incredible work.
early
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1/18/2017 5:15am
Two races down and Yamaha and Cooper Webb are failing to live up to the hype and expectations. Or are they? There has been so much...
Two races down and Yamaha and Cooper Webb are failing to live up to the hype and expectations.

Or are they?

There has been so much pre season talk and bench racing ahead of Cooper Webb's debut in the premier Supercross class, that I think perhaps it's time to step back and reassess the situation using a more objective long-term view.

Bear with me.

Let's get back to those expectations for a moment. On whose expectations are we judging his performance? I could be mistaken, but I don't recall hearing from Cooper or anyone on his team any specific goals for the season beyond learning the ropes, staying healthy, etc. Of course, he has made statements such as "hate to lose", "battle with those guys", etc, but those are simply generic, canned responses in my opinion and don't reflect the true state of affairs within the team. Other teams and riders state specific goals like "wins", "podiums", "top ten", etc.

I really don't think Cooper or anyone in his program are anywhere near ready to hit the "panic button". Heck, I bet they don't even have one of those in the Yamahauler.

It's no big secret that the reverse engined YZ450F has a less than stellar track record in pro racing in the USA, especially in Supercross. I think it's safe to say that this has negatively affected sales of that particular model and perhaps other Yamaha product by negative association.

I believe the company is keenly aware of this and has a plan to repair the damage and I believe that plan is in full effect now.

Here is what's happening with Yamaha, in my opinion. All just speculation on my part.

Yamaha and Cooper Webb are going to play it extremely safe this year in Supercross and probably will continue to do so until they start racing the 2018 bike. Word on the street is that there are some major changes coming.

From a marketing and bike sales perspective, what would make more sense? Have your top prospect and proven champion rider take risks to achieve mediocre results on soon to be obsolete equipment? Or, do you continue to develop the team, infrastructure, test components and allow your #1 rider to go out and learn the ropes without any pressure for results in his first year?

I think Yamaha sees a successful model in what Honda has done with Ken Roczen and their new bike.

Cooper appearing to "struggle" on the current bike should not surprise anyone. In fact, it should be expected. I'll go one step further and say it was planned.

This way Yamaha can completely close the book on the current generation bike and start a new, more successful legacy with the new one. One more season of less than stellar results in Supercross on the current bike isn't going to further damage it's reputation.

I want to believe they are taking a more long term, sustainable approach with Cooper.
colonel wrote:
@What'sStoppingYou?
You need to get into fiction and fantasy writing, this is incredible work.
Fake news
Bramlett321
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1/18/2017 6:11am
tempura wrote:
I don't know.. It's hard to believe they've "planned" and set up his bike so he's uncomfortable, all in the name of bringing out a better...
I don't know.. It's hard to believe they've "planned" and set up his bike so he's uncomfortable, all in the name of bringing out a better bikeBlink lol
I agree with what you're ^^^^ saying here I think a better way of looking at it or saying it is that watching Cooper on the same bike has "Sealed the deal". Yep we need a new bike one that is more suited for SX. Sometimes what always looks good on paper and even when the math works, doesn't mean real world works out the same way. I think this kid is the Real Deal and I'd love to see him on the Honda right now lol. I imagine a lot of riders on other colors are wishing they were still red right about now.
gabrielito
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1/18/2017 6:18am
This makes a lot of sense if they are redesigning the Yamaha. I am sure they have a several year plan that Webb was on board with before he signed with them. It's not like he didn't ride the bike beforehand and know what he was getting into.
Roostermx58
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1/18/2017 6:26am
I think Coop would do so much better on a 250 in sx. I believe some riders are better on a 250 while others on a 450. I know its his first season on it but he has been testing and riding the 450 for a while. He would be able to push the 250 and ride it harder which suits some riders style a lot better than lugging a 450 around a tight track. He needs to get used to the 450 and the power but I wonder how he would place on the 250 in the 450 class?
agn5009
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1/18/2017 6:27am
Tl;dr

Coop will be fine. There's serious competition in the 450 class. He will work himself up to Anderson, Musquin and Tomacs speed eventually. He will not find himself racing with Dungey or Roczen. Not this year and not next. End of story.
bvm111
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1/18/2017 6:29am
Dude.... your post is longer than the season so far!

Its been 2 races... im pretty sure his wrist is bothering him, hence the whoop speed, or lack of it. Not everything needss to be a conspiracy theory in life!
TXDirt
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1/18/2017 6:39am
TXDirt wrote:
I like the theory. My only question, if they are making big changes, wouldn't we see hear something? The 2018 models come out in what, 6...
I like the theory. My only question, if they are making big changes, wouldn't we see hear something? The 2018 models come out in what, 6 months? So they have already retooled the factory to make a completely different bike? Is this bike currently being tested in Japan? If so, where are the pics? If they start right now then maybe they would be 2019 bikes and not 2018.

Thoughts?
The 18 Model already exists, is being tested, ridden, and will be raced in April. Motocross is much bigger than vital, instagram, and snapchat.
Op said his theory was that they were releasing a totally new 2018 model 450 and closing the book on the 2017 model. I just simply stated where is the evidence of the totally redesigned new model? Meaning there is none so his theory is likely incorrect.

So yes, since the 18's come out in 6 months of course it exists. But is it totally redesigned from the ground up? Probably not. So it it just a freshened up 17 model? Probably.
kaptkaos
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1/18/2017 6:53am
colonel wrote:
@What'sStoppingYou?
You need to get into fiction and fantasy writing, this is incredible work.
X2
tingo
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1/18/2017 6:56am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2017 6:57am
Two races down and Yamaha and Cooper Webb are failing to live up to the hype and expectations. Or are they? There has been so much...
Two races down and Yamaha and Cooper Webb are failing to live up to the hype and expectations.

Or are they?

There has been so much pre season talk and bench racing ahead of Cooper Webb's debut in the premier Supercross class, that I think perhaps it's time to step back and reassess the situation using a more objective long-term view.

Bear with me.

Let's get back to those expectations for a moment. On whose expectations are we judging his performance? I could be mistaken, but I don't recall hearing from Cooper or anyone on his team any specific goals for the season beyond learning the ropes, staying healthy, etc. Of course, he has made statements such as "hate to lose", "battle with those guys", etc, but those are simply generic, canned responses in my opinion and don't reflect the true state of affairs within the team. Other teams and riders state specific goals like "wins", "podiums", "top ten", etc.

I really don't think Cooper or anyone in his program are anywhere near ready to hit the "panic button". Heck, I bet they don't even have one of those in the Yamahauler.

It's no big secret that the reverse engined YZ450F has a less than stellar track record in pro racing in the USA, especially in Supercross. I think it's safe to say that this has negatively affected sales of that particular model and perhaps other Yamaha product by negative association.

I believe the company is keenly aware of this and has a plan to repair the damage and I believe that plan is in full effect now.

Here is what's happening with Yamaha, in my opinion. All just speculation on my part.

Yamaha and Cooper Webb are going to play it extremely safe this year in Supercross and probably will continue to do so until they start racing the 2018 bike. Word on the street is that there are some major changes coming.

From a marketing and bike sales perspective, what would make more sense? Have your top prospect and proven champion rider take risks to achieve mediocre results on soon to be obsolete equipment? Or, do you continue to develop the team, infrastructure, test components and allow your #1 rider to go out and learn the ropes without any pressure for results in his first year?

I think Yamaha sees a successful model in what Honda has done with Ken Roczen and their new bike.

Cooper appearing to "struggle" on the current bike should not surprise anyone. In fact, it should be expected. I'll go one step further and say it was planned.

This way Yamaha can completely close the book on the current generation bike and start a new, more successful legacy with the new one. One more season of less than stellar results in Supercross on the current bike isn't going to further damage it's reputation.

I want to believe they are taking a more long term, sustainable approach with Cooper.
I'll take it one step further into crazy-land-of-crap-theories: I think Reed and Webb are actually capable of being on the podium every week, but are intentionally riding at 60% just so that the Yamaha looks better NEXT year. It's a great business plan.

Garbage, all of it.
speed_racer
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1/18/2017 6:56am
Everything is going work out fine.

Villopoto talks about it on the Pulp show, he was a fish out of water for first part of 2009.

Takes time for some to adapt.

Dude is Cooper Webb, he will get it figured out.
moto0852
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1/18/2017 6:59am
Can't be the bike...Keefer and Dirtrider say its the best bike made Smile LOL
TheGetFresh
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1/18/2017 7:09am
Dude, you just made a post claiming the oem is letting him flounder. Now everyone is pointing to the Yamaha as the reason for Webb's struggles. Do you really think Yamaha had a plan to spend that much money on the kid just so he could go out and make their bike look like a dog?

The kid sucks. Maybe he'll get better, maybe he won't.

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