Best Factory Suspension

lukeylad
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Edited Date/Time 3/2/2019 10:58am
What do you think is the best suspension on a factory bike?

Also if ever publically sold which would be most expensive?
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3/1/2019 6:05am
WP 52mm Cone Valve Super Secret Lease Only Edition forks with unobtanium coated tubes, bro... I might know a guy..
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slipdog
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3/1/2019 6:18am
WP 52mm Cone Valve Super Secret Lease Only Edition forks with unobtanium coated tubes, bro... I might know a guy..
Message me that email contact please, Bro
3
ML512
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3/1/2019 6:21am
WP 52mm Cone Valve Super Secret Lease Only Edition forks with unobtanium coated tubes, bro... I might know a guy..
slipdog wrote:
Message me that email contact please, Bro
The email works now ?
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The Shop

brody
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3/1/2019 6:34am
showa that joey has or kroc
ML512
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3/1/2019 6:35am
Showa to answer both your questions
ML512 wrote:
Biased.Laughing
Well you’d say “kyb”
Not exactly, it would depend off bike, Tech etc....

But I will agree with your most expensive statement. The billet BFRC shock body for the 13-16 CRF450R chassis is a work of art.
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Yeti365
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3/1/2019 9:34am
I'm gonna say the Showa 51mm stuff, and their billet shock. I have never seen them for sale. Even the 50mm kyb stuff will pop up now and then.

I've always been curious how rigid and smooth those forks are.
milliebays
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3/1/2019 10:36am
its so weird the euros own the suspension game in motorsport, but here we still use showa/KYB. maybe for the same reason we still use dunlop??
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slipdog
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3/1/2019 12:14pm
Yeti365 wrote:
I'm gonna say the Showa 51mm stuff, and their billet shock. I have never seen them for sale. Even the 50mm kyb stuff will pop up...
I'm gonna say the Showa 51mm stuff, and their billet shock. I have never seen them for sale. Even the 50mm kyb stuff will pop up now and then.

I've always been curious how rigid and smooth those forks are.
How much you willing to pay for the 51's?
mattyhamz2
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3/1/2019 12:31pm
Yeti365 wrote:
I'm gonna say the Showa 51mm stuff, and their billet shock. I have never seen them for sale. Even the 50mm kyb stuff will pop up...
I'm gonna say the Showa 51mm stuff, and their billet shock. I have never seen them for sale. Even the 50mm kyb stuff will pop up now and then.

I've always been curious how rigid and smooth those forks are.
slipdog wrote:
How much you willing to pay for the 51's?
About 350
3
Helda
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3/1/2019 12:51pm
milliebays wrote:
its so weird the euros own the suspension game in motorsport, but here we still use showa/KYB. maybe for the same reason we still use dunlop??
What do you mean they own the suspension game?
milliebays
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3/1/2019 12:56pm
milliebays wrote:
its so weird the euros own the suspension game in motorsport, but here we still use showa/KYB. maybe for the same reason we still use dunlop??
Helda wrote:
What do you mean they own the suspension game?
sachs
nitron
ohlins
moton
KW? Bilstein?
(and penske)

have most of the marketshare in the club and pro markets. even subaru's own rally team, for example, uses euro stuff instead of japanese.

Helda
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3/1/2019 1:07pm
We are talking MX not rally, are you on the right forum
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Turbojez
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3/1/2019 4:04pm
Euro:
Sölva
Öhlins
WP
Marzocchi
Sachs
Reiger

Japan:
Showa
Kayaba

There is no such thing as the best suspension.
You can get any of the top level setups to work similarly.
You could also have badly setup Showa A-kits vs well setup stockers and the latter would perform better.

Did anything move in regards of 52mm WP's in US recently? I have read something about them but nothing 100% reliable.

I never knew there were showa 51mm's! Any pics Slip? That is interesting.
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3/1/2019 4:10pm
Turbojez wrote:
Euro: Sölva Öhlins WP Marzocchi Sachs Reiger Japan: Showa Kayaba There is no such thing as the best suspension. You can get any of the top...
Euro:
Sölva
Öhlins
WP
Marzocchi
Sachs
Reiger

Japan:
Showa
Kayaba

There is no such thing as the best suspension.
You can get any of the top level setups to work similarly.
You could also have badly setup Showa A-kits vs well setup stockers and the latter would perform better.

Did anything move in regards of 52mm WP's in US recently? I have read something about them but nothing 100% reliable.

I never knew there were showa 51mm's! Any pics Slip? That is interesting.
It’s definitely not Marzocchi.
1
drt410
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3/1/2019 4:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/1/2019 4:33pm
milliebays wrote:
its so weird the euros own the suspension game in motorsport, but here we still use showa/KYB. maybe for the same reason we still use dunlop??
Wait what? With mx you get WP on KTM and then within the last couple years Husky. Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha is small time? Yea Showa, KYB... is 2 suspension brands, but they make up the majority of the market with those brands combined. Nobody has Ohlins either although nice. So its Europe-WP vs Japan-KYB, Showa...
BikeGuy321
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3/1/2019 4:40pm
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only team in Moto GP that doesn't use Ohlins.
1
drt410
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3/1/2019 4:43pm Edited Date/Time 3/1/2019 4:51pm
BikeGuy321 wrote:
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only...
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only team in Moto GP that doesn't use Ohlins.
Thats easy with KTM, they own WP. Honda and Yamaha dont own Showa or KYB and Honda will win at all costs in MotoGP so if Ohlins is best... they use Ohlins. They let Ken and Seely use KYB or Showa... if Ohlins had better mx suspension than A-Kit you best believe Kenny could use it if need be. Ohlins happens to make the best MotoGP suspension... so thats what they use, and KTM owns WP.
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Tim507
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3/1/2019 4:48pm
IMHO all the suspension is good (Perhaps some a bit better) the magic is in the setup, daily tuning and maintenance.
3/1/2019 5:14pm
BikeGuy321 wrote:
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only...
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only team in Moto GP that doesn't use Ohlins.
drt410 wrote:
Thats easy with KTM, they own WP. Honda and Yamaha dont own Showa or KYB and Honda will win at all costs in MotoGP so if...
Thats easy with KTM, they own WP. Honda and Yamaha dont own Showa or KYB and Honda will win at all costs in MotoGP so if Ohlins is best... they use Ohlins. They let Ken and Seely use KYB or Showa... if Ohlins had better mx suspension than A-Kit you best believe Kenny could use it if need be. Ohlins happens to make the best MotoGP suspension... so thats what they use, and KTM owns WP.
Yamaha does own Soqi, but I don't imagine they will ever put an effort to produce any performance suspension product with it.
Helda
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3/1/2019 5:15pm
BikeGuy321 wrote:
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only...
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only team in Moto GP that doesn't use Ohlins.
Does Yamaha still own a portion of Ohlins, I know they sold out again but I thought Yamaha still had a share.
milliebays
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Afton, IA US
3/1/2019 5:18pm
milliebays wrote:
its so weird the euros own the suspension game in motorsport, but here we still use showa/KYB. maybe for the same reason we still use dunlop??
drt410 wrote:
Wait what? With mx you get WP on KTM and then within the last couple years Husky. Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha is small time? Yea...
Wait what? With mx you get WP on KTM and then within the last couple years Husky. Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha is small time? Yea Showa, KYB... is 2 suspension brands, but they make up the majority of the market with those brands combined. Nobody has Ohlins either although nice. So its Europe-WP vs Japan-KYB, Showa...
Car and sportbike racing
milliebays
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3/1/2019 5:19pm
Helda wrote:
We are talking MX not rally, are you on the right forum
Thats my point. Were a niche sport. Bigger sports use euro susp and euro tires. Why
rob162
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IL US
3/1/2019 5:24pm
BikeGuy321 wrote:
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only...
It's interesting to me how Honda and Yamaha use Japanese suspension brands for everything but Moto GP, where they use Ohlins. And KTM is the only team in Moto GP that doesn't use Ohlins.
Helda wrote:
Does Yamaha still own a portion of Ohlins, I know they sold out again but I thought Yamaha still had a share.
No but honda still owns showa I believe.
2
3/1/2019 5:41pm
drt410 wrote:
Thats easy with KTM, they own WP. Honda and Yamaha dont own Showa or KYB and Honda will win at all costs in MotoGP so if...
Thats easy with KTM, they own WP. Honda and Yamaha dont own Showa or KYB and Honda will win at all costs in MotoGP so if Ohlins is best... they use Ohlins. They let Ken and Seely use KYB or Showa... if Ohlins had better mx suspension than A-Kit you best believe Kenny could use it if need be. Ohlins happens to make the best MotoGP suspension... so thats what they use, and KTM owns WP.
Honda and Showa have a very close relationship and have had since the 1940’s. Yamaha at various times has had some type of business interests in KYB and Ohlins. #nowyouknow
Bruneval
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Bristol GB
3/1/2019 5:44pm
It’s definitely not Marzocchi.
The 50mm Marzocchi Shivers, their version of the A Kit, are very very good. Extremely rare and they don’t make them anymore (seem more focused on the mountain bikes these days), but they’re some of the best MX forks you can get.
1
mark911
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Ashville, OH US
3/1/2019 5:55pm
IMO the SECRET is . . . there is no secret. I suspect everyone is doing pretty much the same thing from a design standpoint. The difference is how each part that makes up the component (shock/fork) is optimized.

For example, at that level the teams either have access to or are provided lower tubes that have been cherry picked from hundreds of samples based on specific inspection criteria. Straightness, thickness and uniformity of walls, roundness, stiffness, etc. Then the tubes are treated to special coatings and further testing. Uppers probably receive the same attention.

During assembly of the main tubes, dozens of bushings are probably fit checked and only those bushings that create the tolerances desired are used. In some cases, if extremely tight tolerances are required each bushing might get some minor machining specific to that location only.

Triple clamps are most likely re-machined for absolute orthogonality, assembled with the tube assemblies/front axle and inspected for smooth operation from full extension to bottom. Everything is probably indexed and marked for reassembly. Specific torques and sequences are probably dictated as well.

Main seals and wipers can be modified by inserting light compression seal springs (or leave them out entirely), trim redundant sealing lips, etc. They only need to hold oil for one race, and a trace amount of film (leakage) is probably a good thing.

Plugs can be inserted to change the total internal volume and along with oil volume dictate the ramp rate of internal air pressure.

All that and they haven't even touched the cartridge/damping circuits yet! As you can imagine, the same approach is probably used here as well. Careful selection and assembly of parts so that everything works together.

Frankly, I don't think any team has some "magic" damping circuit(s) and although I've seen some pretty creative ideas they're still just variations on a common theme. However, in addition to the chosen valving approach some detailing can still help. Valving ports can be carefully radiused to prevent turbulence and attention to "where/how the flow proceeds after it detaches from the port/shim stack is evaluated for proper pressure recovery and "backing" plates are massaged appropriately.

Obviously, there's thousands of possible piston/port/shim stacks possible, but the shims themselves are probably carefully selected from the best materials and thoroughly deburred before use.

Spring seats can utilize thrust bearings to minimize spring windup as well.

So, no secrets, just intense attention the detail and the ability to optimize the design.

Bottom line, it's really about getting the rider comfortable and if (name top 5 SX rider here) was suddenly 3 sec/lap faster after the team forgot to put oil in the forks I'd gotta believe they'd figure out some way to replicate that setup!
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