Barcia Running Stock Motor

jeffro503
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11/10/2019 7:25pm
Chance1216 wrote:
Isn't stepping down from a full factory motor to a stocker in a sense detuning?
No. It's just not tuning at all. You say "Full factory motor" as if that is an inherently extant thing, which it is not. It is...
No. It's just not tuning at all.

You say "Full factory motor" as if that is an inherently extant thing, which it is not. It is something they build to meet the requirements of a rider/team.

Of course there are examples like the"big-bang" movement in MotoGP sacrificing raw horsepower for rideability, but that's still a factory build. The reason he went stock is because he felt that the stock motor is as good or better for his needs as a "full factory motor".
You are going down a rabbit hole you won't be able to crawl back out of.

A factory motor is most definitely built from the ground up , to produce the type of power , that specific rider needs / wants. Which most of the time , is more power , on top of the way they want the power to be delivered. A stock / off the shelf motor isn't what a lot of these fast guy's are going to like. So yes , a stock / off the shelf motor is indeed a " de-tuning " in a sense. May not be the power curve they want , but it's also a lot less power.
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11/10/2019 7:32pm Edited Date/Time 11/10/2019 7:49pm
Chance1216 wrote:
Isn't stepping down from a full factory motor to a stocker in a sense detuning?
No. It's just not tuning at all. You say "Full factory motor" as if that is an inherently extant thing, which it is not. It is...
No. It's just not tuning at all.

You say "Full factory motor" as if that is an inherently extant thing, which it is not. It is something they build to meet the requirements of a rider/team.

Of course there are examples like the"big-bang" movement in MotoGP sacrificing raw horsepower for rideability, but that's still a factory build. The reason he went stock is because he felt that the stock motor is as good or better for his needs as a "full factory motor".
jeffro503 wrote:
You are going down a rabbit hole you won't be able to crawl back out of. A factory motor is most definitely built from the ground...
You are going down a rabbit hole you won't be able to crawl back out of.

A factory motor is most definitely built from the ground up , to produce the type of power , that specific rider needs / wants. Which most of the time , is more power , on top of the way they want the power to be delivered. A stock / off the shelf motor isn't what a lot of these fast guy's are going to like. So yes , a stock / off the shelf motor is indeed a " de-tuning " in a sense. May not be the power curve they want , but it's also a lot less power.
Right. And JB could ask for a "detuned" factory motor if he felt the stock wasn't as rideable. But he asked for a stock motor as his starting point. And he won on a stock motor.

I don't know how to fight through the semantics here: If I choose not to bolt a supercharger on to my car, it isn't "detuned" at all. It just still is exactly what it was designed to be.
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kiwifan
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11/10/2019 7:43pm
It is an interesting conversation, conversely the likes of Roczen and Tomac want the same top end as stock but more low and mid...I am sure Dungey was the same as well, as all 3 have a very similar riding style in the way the use the motor.

Barica would (for example) like the engine singing in the top end of the rev range as he exits a corner, the others prefer the more torquey low/mid pull to launch them out
jeffro503
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11/10/2019 7:55pm
No. It's just not tuning at all. You say "Full factory motor" as if that is an inherently extant thing, which it is not. It is...
No. It's just not tuning at all.

You say "Full factory motor" as if that is an inherently extant thing, which it is not. It is something they build to meet the requirements of a rider/team.

Of course there are examples like the"big-bang" movement in MotoGP sacrificing raw horsepower for rideability, but that's still a factory build. The reason he went stock is because he felt that the stock motor is as good or better for his needs as a "full factory motor".
jeffro503 wrote:
You are going down a rabbit hole you won't be able to crawl back out of. A factory motor is most definitely built from the ground...
You are going down a rabbit hole you won't be able to crawl back out of.

A factory motor is most definitely built from the ground up , to produce the type of power , that specific rider needs / wants. Which most of the time , is more power , on top of the way they want the power to be delivered. A stock / off the shelf motor isn't what a lot of these fast guy's are going to like. So yes , a stock / off the shelf motor is indeed a " de-tuning " in a sense. May not be the power curve they want , but it's also a lot less power.
Right. And JB could ask for a "detuned" factory motor if he felt the stock wasn't as rideable. But he asked for a stock motor as...
Right. And JB could ask for a "detuned" factory motor if he felt the stock wasn't as rideable. But he asked for a stock motor as his starting point. And he won on a stock motor.

I don't know how to fight through the semantics here: If I choose not to bolt a supercharger on to my car, it isn't "detuned" at all. It just still is exactly what it was designed to be.
Yes , but " what it was designed to be " is not what any sort of factory team is going to run. They are going to squeeze every bit of power they can out of that motor , tune it to that rider's specific needs and go from there. Pretty sure Justin's " De-tuned motor " is in fact stronger than a stock motor by quite a ways. Look at it this way.....let's say a well tuned stock motor is about 54HP. Full factory / crazy HP is damn near 70HP. Maybe Justin decided to go some where in between? Like 60+ HP , with a special power curve and a higher rev limiter? To him......that's de-tuned. To us regular folk.... that's a scary beast to ride.
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The Shop

11/10/2019 8:40pm Edited Date/Time 11/10/2019 8:58pm
jeffro503 wrote:
You are going down a rabbit hole you won't be able to crawl back out of. A factory motor is most definitely built from the ground...
You are going down a rabbit hole you won't be able to crawl back out of.

A factory motor is most definitely built from the ground up , to produce the type of power , that specific rider needs / wants. Which most of the time , is more power , on top of the way they want the power to be delivered. A stock / off the shelf motor isn't what a lot of these fast guy's are going to like. So yes , a stock / off the shelf motor is indeed a " de-tuning " in a sense. May not be the power curve they want , but it's also a lot less power.
Right. And JB could ask for a "detuned" factory motor if he felt the stock wasn't as rideable. But he asked for a stock motor as...
Right. And JB could ask for a "detuned" factory motor if he felt the stock wasn't as rideable. But he asked for a stock motor as his starting point. And he won on a stock motor.

I don't know how to fight through the semantics here: If I choose not to bolt a supercharger on to my car, it isn't "detuned" at all. It just still is exactly what it was designed to be.
jeffro503 wrote:
Yes , but " what it was designed to be " is not what any sort of factory team is going to run. They are going...
Yes , but " what it was designed to be " is not what any sort of factory team is going to run. They are going to squeeze every bit of power they can out of that motor , tune it to that rider's specific needs and go from there. Pretty sure Justin's " De-tuned motor " is in fact stronger than a stock motor by quite a ways. Look at it this way.....let's say a well tuned stock motor is about 54HP. Full factory / crazy HP is damn near 70HP. Maybe Justin decided to go some where in between? Like 60+ HP , with a special power curve and a higher rev limiter? To him......that's de-tuned. To us regular folk.... that's a scary beast to ride.
That's all presumptive of a mythical, tested and reliable, nearly 70 hp factory motor that is already prepared and ready to go for JB51 on his approval.

I disagree with that assertion and that the motor designs for factory teams are built to that end. Stock is the starting point. Sure they know where a few ponies are hidden and have some directions in mind... but the development and testing will be in the future. You are acting like that HP is already delivered, tested, and approved as a package by the team and rider prior to development.
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jeffro503
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11/10/2019 8:54pm
That's all presumptive of a mythical, tested and reliable, nearly 70 hp factory motor that is already prepared and ready to go for JB51 on his...
That's all presumptive of a mythical, tested and reliable, nearly 70 hp factory motor that is already prepared and ready to go for JB51 on his approval.

I disagree with that assertion and that the motor designs for factory teams are built to that end. Stock is the starting point. Sure they know where a few ponies are hidden and have some directions in mind... but the development and testing will be in the future. You are acting like that HP is already delivered, tested, and approved as a package by the team and rider prior to development.
Ok , here is another example for you , that just happened. Justin Hill riding his MCR backed Honda , saying that he loved it because it felt faster than what his JGR built Suzuki was. Of course he'll say what ever he needs to say , to make his new team look good.....point being is , how slow do you think a fully prepped JGR 450 is? When you witness first hand a modified privateer 450 , get walked on by a factory bike / satellite team bike from point A to point B........it's power delivery , and a lot of it , that's doing it. " Making power " is one thing , being able to use it , is another.

Ask yourself this........if you don't think those factory motors are that fast , why are they building them from the ground up for their riders? There isn't even a comparison. Like literally zero. Same could be said about suspension......stock stuff / A-kit stuff.........to no comparison factory stuff!
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jeffro503
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11/10/2019 8:57pm
Point # 3...........Ask Reed about " leasing " an $80,000 transmission , and to him it was worth it. That's just the tranny.
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11/10/2019 9:01pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2019 3:54am
That's all presumptive of a mythical, tested and reliable, nearly 70 hp factory motor that is already prepared and ready to go for JB51 on his...
That's all presumptive of a mythical, tested and reliable, nearly 70 hp factory motor that is already prepared and ready to go for JB51 on his approval.

I disagree with that assertion and that the motor designs for factory teams are built to that end. Stock is the starting point. Sure they know where a few ponies are hidden and have some directions in mind... but the development and testing will be in the future. You are acting like that HP is already delivered, tested, and approved as a package by the team and rider prior to development.
jeffro503 wrote:
Ok , here is another example for you , that just happened. Justin Hill riding his MCR backed Honda , saying that he loved it because...
Ok , here is another example for you , that just happened. Justin Hill riding his MCR backed Honda , saying that he loved it because it felt faster than what his JGR built Suzuki was. Of course he'll say what ever he needs to say , to make his new team look good.....point being is , how slow do you think a fully prepped JGR 450 is? When you witness first hand a modified privateer 450 , get walked on by a factory bike / satellite team bike from point A to point B........it's power delivery , and a lot of it , that's doing it. " Making power " is one thing , being able to use it , is another.

Ask yourself this........if you don't think those factory motors are that fast , why are they building them from the ground up for their riders? There isn't even a comparison. Like literally zero. Same could be said about suspension......stock stuff / A-kit stuff.........to no comparison factory stuff!
I know factory motors are often very fast (and expensive!). And I realize how many iterations it must take to build a very fast, reliable-enough race motor of any type. It is not something you just flip light switch on the development. On the other hand, you seem to be presenting the idea that this 70HP engine is right there for JB to choose, third from the right, but he said, "nah"

That is my whole point and exactly why calling a stock motor a "detuned" factory motor is absolute crazy-talk. We are talking about millions of dollars and countless man hours in development versus literally zero.
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11/10/2019 9:36pm Edited Date/Time 11/10/2019 9:43pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Point # 3...........Ask Reed about " leasing " an $80,000 transmission , and to him it was worth it. That's just the tranny.
I am sure Reed and others have spent 80,000. 200,000, whatever it takes in terms of man-hours on motors, trannies, etc. Built on spec. That's the way things work. We have no imaginary spec Barcia has supposedly asked for, and certainly not for a supposed high horsepower "factory" motor he intends to "detune" back to stock.
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snackfedbear
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11/10/2019 9:51pm
jeffro503 wrote:
You're totally right. I was just giving an example of what helped me out personally , and maybe it's kind of the same line of thinking...
You're totally right. I was just giving an example of what helped me out personally , and maybe it's kind of the same line of thinking that Justin is on? There are plenty of guy's on here that could probably say the same thing , as in going down to something less powerful , helped them. And I know professional SX is way different from what I do , but those races are still long enough where an over powered bike could get you into serious trouble. FWIW......Justin is not the first SX rider in which I've heard he actually de-tuned his motor a bit , to make it more rideable.
I can definitely say the same right along with you because the same logic worked for me when I stepped back to an 08 from my 17 Honda. For me a less torquey motor is much easier to ride fast and consistently. However I honestly couldn’t say I’d be faster on a 250f or 125... mind you I’m pushing 240 pounds and 5’11. I just think these dudes need as much power as they can handle for the starts. The rest of the track it seems better to have a little more manageable power as SX is about precision over brunt
snackfedbear
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11/10/2019 9:53pm
Crush wrote:
On the other hand, Barcia, who was always a great starter for years... hasn't been for years.
You got a point
TheLsho
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11/10/2019 10:29pm
I love that vital users are experts on what a pro rider can feel and what they like and want out of a bike.
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jeffro503
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11/10/2019 10:48pm Edited Date/Time 11/10/2019 10:49pm
TheLsho wrote:
I love that vital users are experts on what a pro rider can feel and what they like and want out of a bike.
Each and every person is an " Expert " on what they personally want out of a bike. Most of the really fast guys know a lot more about the little things that will help them feel more comfortable , thus ride the bike faster.....with more confidence. Just because someone posts on a message board , doesn't automatically invalidate their opinion. In fact some of us have raced for many years , in some pretty fast classes , and have been friends that have been in and out of factory bikes / equipment. So you can take your snide comment and shove it where the sun don't shine , there smart guy. Laughing My experience of what I've ridden and whom I've talked to in the past 35+ years makes my opinion pretty valid in my eyes. What's yours?
TheLsho
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11/10/2019 11:27pm
TheLsho wrote:
I love that vital users are experts on what a pro rider can feel and what they like and want out of a bike.
jeffro503 wrote:
Each and every person is an " Expert " on what they personally want out of a bike. Most of the really fast guys know a...
Each and every person is an " Expert " on what they personally want out of a bike. Most of the really fast guys know a lot more about the little things that will help them feel more comfortable , thus ride the bike faster.....with more confidence. Just because someone posts on a message board , doesn't automatically invalidate their opinion. In fact some of us have raced for many years , in some pretty fast classes , and have been friends that have been in and out of factory bikes / equipment. So you can take your snide comment and shove it where the sun don't shine , there smart guy. Laughing My experience of what I've ridden and whom I've talked to in the past 35+ years makes my opinion pretty valid in my eyes. What's yours?
I wasn't talking about you specifically, you actually bring some valid points to the conversation.

My opinion is that when you do something at the professional or highest level for a very long time (as your only job) that you generally have a much better feel for that sport, equipment, your body, or whatever it may be than hobbyists or enthusiasts. On top of that, some pros may actually have a better feel for certain things than other pros, but it is still greater than almost anyone else who doesn't (hasn't) put in that time. So anecdotal comparisons and general theories and philosophies don't always necessarily ring true when it comes to what a pro wants, needs, or feels.
OT
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11/10/2019 11:55pm
So to encapsulate the results for Paris SX: Barcia: 1st with he says a stock motor and chassis on what we call the "blue pig". Savatgy...
So to encapsulate the results for Paris SX:
Barcia: 1st with he says a stock motor and chassis on what we call the "blue pig".
Savatgy: 2nd running a stock motor with exhaust and suspension bits on the bike we say is too outdated.
Friese: 3rd with an off-the-dealer-floor vanilla Honda.

And then there are all of us Vital goofballs worrying about whether engine mounts, or ti footpegs, or factory editions will make the difference at the local track.
Kinda like saying if I was on Roczens 450, and he was on a stock 125, he wouldn't beat me... it's skill not engine mounts
jeffro503
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11/11/2019 12:09am
TheLsho wrote:
I love that vital users are experts on what a pro rider can feel and what they like and want out of a bike.
jeffro503 wrote:
Each and every person is an " Expert " on what they personally want out of a bike. Most of the really fast guys know a...
Each and every person is an " Expert " on what they personally want out of a bike. Most of the really fast guys know a lot more about the little things that will help them feel more comfortable , thus ride the bike faster.....with more confidence. Just because someone posts on a message board , doesn't automatically invalidate their opinion. In fact some of us have raced for many years , in some pretty fast classes , and have been friends that have been in and out of factory bikes / equipment. So you can take your snide comment and shove it where the sun don't shine , there smart guy. Laughing My experience of what I've ridden and whom I've talked to in the past 35+ years makes my opinion pretty valid in my eyes. What's yours?
TheLsho wrote:
I wasn't talking about you specifically, you actually bring some valid points to the conversation. My opinion is that when you do something at the professional...
I wasn't talking about you specifically, you actually bring some valid points to the conversation.

My opinion is that when you do something at the professional or highest level for a very long time (as your only job) that you generally have a much better feel for that sport, equipment, your body, or whatever it may be than hobbyists or enthusiasts. On top of that, some pros may actually have a better feel for certain things than other pros, but it is still greater than almost anyone else who doesn't (hasn't) put in that time. So anecdotal comparisons and general theories and philosophies don't always necessarily ring true when it comes to what a pro wants, needs, or feels.
I agree with that 100%. In fact a lot of what you just wrote , is exactly what I typed up above. And even though what I ( we ) said , to throw an even bigger wrench into the discussion , some really fast dudes are terrible at fine tuning their bikes.

Bottom line is , and why I got into this conversation was because someone mentioned something about stock motors vs factory motors , detuning and so forth. I don't claim to know what all the top riders want / need........I was just trying to give an explanation of why Justin may feel the need to detune his motors.
kkawboy14
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11/11/2019 4:38am
jeffro503 wrote:
I know I'll get flamed for this , but it's ok , it's expected. Being a vet rider on a 125 ( expert class )...
I know I'll get flamed for this , but it's ok , it's expected.

Being a vet rider on a 125 ( expert class ) , in longer moto's ( I seem to get killed on the starts ) , but after 10 mins I start reeling guys in , and by the 15 - 20 min mark I almost feel as if I have an unfair advantage.

You can take this quote by myself as serious , or a joke , it's up to you : " Why do you need 60HP , when you only use 30 of it? " And mean while I'm riding something 30 - 50lbs lighter then you are. Do the math.

Being a vet rider , I found out a few years ago in longer moto's , the bigger , heavier , over powered bikes were what was killing me. I'll take getting creamed off the start , to only real you in later.

Point being........Maybe Justin just decided that an easier to ride , less HP type motor would help him conserve some energy?
If your competitors have 60hp and they can actually use 60hp.....you better have 62!
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bbhMoto
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11/11/2019 6:55am
Reminds of Eric Geboers - http://www.mxworksbike.com/index.php/1989-honda-rc500m

"I got in many conflicts with the engine engineers at first. They wanted more compression and bigger carburetors for maximum power output, but this produced uncontrollable power. In theory it looked like the way to go. In reality on the racetrack it resulted in slower lap times.

Just before the Finnish Grand Prix, I suggested we do a blind test. I said," Build me three bikes and don't tell me what is on each bike. I will ride all three bikes during practice and I will tell you which bike has the smaller carburetor and low compression". They agreed. After riding all three bikes in practice I told them which one it was and I was right. My lap times were several seconds a lap quicker on that bike too."
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Chance1216
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11/11/2019 7:02am
bbhMoto wrote:
Reminds of Eric Geboers - http://www.mxworksbike.com/index.php/1989-honda-rc500m "I got in many conflicts with the engine engineers at first. They wanted more compression and bigger carburetors for maximum...
Reminds of Eric Geboers - http://www.mxworksbike.com/index.php/1989-honda-rc500m

"I got in many conflicts with the engine engineers at first. They wanted more compression and bigger carburetors for maximum power output, but this produced uncontrollable power. In theory it looked like the way to go. In reality on the racetrack it resulted in slower lap times.

Just before the Finnish Grand Prix, I suggested we do a blind test. I said," Build me three bikes and don't tell me what is on each bike. I will ride all three bikes during practice and I will tell you which bike has the smaller carburetor and low compression". They agreed. After riding all three bikes in practice I told them which one it was and I was right. My lap times were several seconds a lap quicker on that bike too."
Exactly. I remember reading that awhile ago.
11/11/2019 7:33am
oh yeah Barcia on a 350 would be dangerous for the competition
Derpin' DJ wrote:
A 350 Yamaha built like their 250 would be an absolute weapon too.
The 450 is already built just like their 250. Has been since 2014 (with a changeover in '18 under which the 250 was still built just...
The 450 is already built just like their 250. Has been since 2014 (with a changeover in '18 under which the 250 was still built just like the '13 450, and the 450 was actually the more compact of the two platforms).
The platform doesn't seem to be the problem. The 450 motor IN the platform seems to be the problem. Thus why he thinks a 350 would do better hoping that the good 250 characteristics cancel out the bad parts of the 450. It'll never happen though and it's a shame. Out of all the bikes I think theirs would be at the least disadvantage to a 450 because of the air intake. A 350 should have a minimum legal weight exactly in between 250 and 450. Being down on power with the same weight is the big drawback.
philG
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11/11/2019 7:48am
bbhMoto wrote:
Reminds of Eric Geboers - http://www.mxworksbike.com/index.php/1989-honda-rc500m "I got in many conflicts with the engine engineers at first. They wanted more compression and bigger carburetors for maximum...
Reminds of Eric Geboers - http://www.mxworksbike.com/index.php/1989-honda-rc500m

"I got in many conflicts with the engine engineers at first. They wanted more compression and bigger carburetors for maximum power output, but this produced uncontrollable power. In theory it looked like the way to go. In reality on the racetrack it resulted in slower lap times.

Just before the Finnish Grand Prix, I suggested we do a blind test. I said," Build me three bikes and don't tell me what is on each bike. I will ride all three bikes during practice and I will tell you which bike has the smaller carburetor and low compression". They agreed. After riding all three bikes in practice I told them which one it was and I was right. My lap times were several seconds a lap quicker on that bike too."
This is exactley what we did with our CR500 Supermoto bike.. can run laptimes almost the same as our very sorted 450FS Husky. Less is more.
philG
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11/11/2019 7:59am
One of the biggest problems in Pro Motorsports is engineers who think they know best, coupled with riders that are next to useless at knowing what they want, and not being able to tell the difference when they get something new. When you get that, you just get a season of pissing money away for fun, aand getting no results.. i have seen it first hand , and watched 100+ people totally waste 2 years of their lives as a result. Unless you have the talent to develop a bike, you shouldnt be on a factory team IMO, because its a waste of everyones time. Yamaha need to be getting a good test rider on board and listening to him.

As for Barcia, its the same story wherever he goes.
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TeamGreen
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11/11/2019 8:39am
HAHAH so true man. I see so many old fucks talking about “set up” it’s crazy. These bike are so damn good stock. My buddy got...
HAHAH so true man. I see so many old fucks talking about “set up” it’s crazy. These bike are so damn good stock. My buddy got 30th overall AT A PRO NATIONAL ON AN ALL STOCK CRF450r. BONE STOCK SUSPENSION!! Just ride the bike!!
omalley wrote:
Poor comparison. A pro can adapt to a pretty shitty bike because their confidence borders on arrogance. Most of us “old fucks” get easily spooked by...
Poor comparison. A pro can adapt to a pretty shitty bike because their confidence borders on arrogance. Most of us “old fucks” get easily spooked by a bike that kicks, twitches, or does other weird shit. I agree that we don’t need footpegs, shifters, pipes, cams etc...but I disagree on suspension.
In some cases (like mine) a remap is also needed to fix running issues-not because we “need” it for performance.
And some of these old guys aren’t going fast enough to notice things but still spend hours adjusting crap
And throwing more cash into the bike.
While this is true...

There are some of us that "fly in the face" of that.

I'm 56.
I've been on a stock KTM 450 SXF with a different map, good fuel (VP T4) and an FMF pipe. I'm running ODI "MC" bars, Emig's Jeffro grips, a Guts "keep your butt on the bike" light seat, some graphics and a few little bolts and brackets that fell off the truck on the way to the races....(carbon master-cylinder gaurds, carbon motor mounts and the associated fasteners).

But, my suspension? Stock with my own air pressure and adjustments. Aka, out of the box...stock. And the stuff works. It's amazing what you can do with a screw driver.

The motor, also, is Box Stock. The clutch has been replaced -once- at 20 hours/just before Mammoth.
The bike now has 37.5 hrs.

The stock stuff -IS- pretty damn good.
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davis224
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11/11/2019 8:54am
I remember MXA tested both Langston and Hughes' 03 Factory KTM 125s, and they were like completely different bikes. Langston had softer suspension and a wide, mini 250 powerband, very rideable. Hughes' bike was super stiff and had a light switch for a powerband, all of it up top. Different people need different things to go fast.
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11/11/2019 10:05am
bbhMoto wrote:
Reminds of Eric Geboers - http://www.mxworksbike.com/index.php/1989-honda-rc500m "I got in many conflicts with the engine engineers at first. They wanted more compression and bigger carburetors for maximum...
Reminds of Eric Geboers - http://www.mxworksbike.com/index.php/1989-honda-rc500m

"I got in many conflicts with the engine engineers at first. They wanted more compression and bigger carburetors for maximum power output, but this produced uncontrollable power. In theory it looked like the way to go. In reality on the racetrack it resulted in slower lap times.

Just before the Finnish Grand Prix, I suggested we do a blind test. I said," Build me three bikes and don't tell me what is on each bike. I will ride all three bikes during practice and I will tell you which bike has the smaller carburetor and low compression". They agreed. After riding all three bikes in practice I told them which one it was and I was right. My lap times were several seconds a lap quicker on that bike too."
Yes but not all riders are as good of test riders. On the flip side of that, I've read of handlebar companies sending three of the same bars to picky riders and they pick one, but hate the other two.
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TSCHAM101
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Norco, CA US
11/12/2019 9:22am
give him a yz350f with a modded head... he will rip that thing..

IMO 450's need to stop being made anyways.. they are too fast and allow goons to hit 120ft jumps and crash their brains out because they have balls and no skill..

Also, if you watch a lot of training footage from moto spy or MX nation or any of those things.. the 250's hang with the 450's on the starts.. Maybe not at the nationals because the starts are longer but in SX they are just as capable..
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motomike137
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Fenton, MI US
11/12/2019 9:55am
kiwifan wrote:
It is an interesting conversation, conversely the likes of Roczen and Tomac want the same top end as stock but more low and mid...I am sure...
It is an interesting conversation, conversely the likes of Roczen and Tomac want the same top end as stock but more low and mid...I am sure Dungey was the same as well, as all 3 have a very similar riding style in the way the use the motor.

Barica would (for example) like the engine singing in the top end of the rev range as he exits a corner, the others prefer the more torquey low/mid pull to launch them out
Tomac and Roczen are polar opposites outdoors in how they use the motor.
Mr. Afterbar
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Green Bay, WI US
11/12/2019 9:59am
TSCHAM101 wrote:
give him a yz350f with a modded head... he will rip that thing.. IMO 450's need to stop being made anyways.. they are too fast and...
give him a yz350f with a modded head... he will rip that thing..

IMO 450's need to stop being made anyways.. they are too fast and allow goons to hit 120ft jumps and crash their brains out because they have balls and no skill..

Also, if you watch a lot of training footage from moto spy or MX nation or any of those things.. the 250's hang with the 450's on the starts.. Maybe not at the nationals because the starts are longer but in SX they are just as capable..
It's natural selection. Those same people would get hurt on a 350 jumping 120'.

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