Baggett on why tracks get one lined on race day

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9/11/2020 1:28 PM

Basically he blames the race day schedule. Pretty good explanation i think. From RacerX interview:

“ I think that when it starts out super muddy like that, and then of course when you’re going for qualifying times, everybody will take that same line because the mud is getting pushed out of it. It gets down to the hard base, and that’s the fastest line. I think everybody across both classes would agree. So when there’s not just a practice to just get grooves in and get everything kind of lined out, then it just gets that one line. It does make it difficult. The top tree turn, there was the inside line and then there was a middle muck line. I kept trying the middle the whole first moto and kept losing spots. Then the second moto I was able to make it work, but really I think everybody would agree that the inside was by far dominant all day. When I rode with Zach and we rode at Aldon’s or we rode here, we would spend the first 20 minutes of the day getting multiple lines going, and there’s ten of you guys. You can get them all going, and that’s kind of what we do. At the race when it’s a lap time battle, you’re going to go to the best line and try to murder it and hit it as fast as you can because it’s qualifying time. So I think it’s just the way that the schedule is laid out and the way the race format goes. It gets one-lined because of the way qualifying is set up.”

https://racerxonline.com/2020/09/09/between-the-motos-baggett-and-osborne

So should anything be changed to make the tracks and racing better?

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9/11/2020 1:40 PM

I have been saying this for years. The practice format in US MX doesn't allow for creativity unless its out of desperation.

I think it is even somewhat evident at the local level when you have 15 mins of practice in the morning on a wet track before races start.

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9/11/2020 1:48 PM

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9/11/2020 1:51 PM

AZRider wrote:

I have been saying this for years. The practice format in US MX doesn't allow for creativity unless its out of desperation.

...more

Only Vet A riders or above, should set the lines.. too many guys out there carving in stupid lines from the beginner or novice class with nice hooks in the middle of the ruts... those guys never flow around a track.

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9/11/2020 2:06 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/11/2020 2:06 PM

Sometimes these tracks are ripped and watered too deep.

Same thing happens at the public practice tracks during the week, most guys wait out the first hour before they go out because shit is too deep.

They don’t do this in MXGP, and most of the time there are three fast lines that develop.

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9/11/2020 2:09 PM

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9/11/2020 2:09 PM

A club I once belonged to ran races. On race day we would have the track ripped/tilled deep. Before practice we put out hay bales blocking off the inside half of every corner. A riders went out for 1st practice and cut in sweet middle to outside lines. Then we did the rest of the classes with the bales still in place. After that we pulled the bales off and ran the A riders again for 2nd class/Late practice. Every corner had multiple lines and made for great racing. This works great at a local track. Not sure if they could somehow work this in at the Nationals. Block off the insides for timed qualifying and then open them up for the race motos?

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Powerband in every gear !

9/11/2020 2:44 PM

Gate position should be determined on a qualifying race, as in the GPs.

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9/11/2020 2:51 PM

What is he talking about? That track was a passing machine!

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9/11/2020 3:06 PM

FGR01 wrote:

A club I once belonged to ran races. On race day we would have the track ripped/tilled deep. Before practice we put out hay ...more

That's a pretty good idea actually well at least for me on our local tracks but I think that would be really difficult to do on a professional level..

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Rather be a racer for a time than a spectator for a lifetime..

9/11/2020 3:15 PM

With little to no spectators, lets see some Carlsbad dust and blue-groove!

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"A link is only as long as your longest strong chain"

9/11/2020 3:25 PM

Stuntman949 wrote:

With little to no spectators, lets see some Carlsbad dust and blue-groove!

that what I grew up racing on, these guys today don't know what real clay hard pack is like...

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9/11/2020 4:18 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/11/2020 4:20 PM

FGR01 wrote:

A club I once belonged to ran races. On race day we would have the track ripped/tilled deep. Before practice we put out hay ...more

Yeah that approach works really well for racing, but the trouble with timed qualifying is you still end up with a single dominant line, usually funnelling to the inside.
However at least there are options for the races.

The only other approach is knocking all the lines down and grooming the track post qualifying. Then let the lines develop in a racing situation and don’t touch it again for the rest of the day.Trouble is the schedule doesn’t give much time for that.

I’d like to see qualifying held the day before with a fresh track on race day. If the tracks not groomed at all in between motos, it’s rare that the fast lines at the start of the day are fast by the end of day. Technical and creative riders usually excel in those conditions.

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9/11/2020 4:27 PM

FGR01 wrote:

A club I once belonged to ran races. On race day we would have the track ripped/tilled deep. Before practice we put out hay ...more

The easiest logical thing to do given the time crunch on race day.

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9/11/2020 4:29 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/11/2020 4:31 PM

CPR wrote:

Yeah that approach works really well for racing, but the trouble with timed qualifying is you still end up with a single ...more

Qualifying held the day prior is the inferior solution but involves an added day and ruins the schedule set forth by the organizations involved.

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9/11/2020 4:40 PM

FGR01 wrote:

A club I once belonged to ran races. On race day we would have the track ripped/tilled deep. Before practice we put out hay ...more

CPR wrote:

Yeah that approach works really well for racing, but the trouble with timed qualifying is you still end up with a single ...more

peltier626 wrote:

Qualifying held the day prior is the inferior solution but involves an added day and ruins the schedule set forth by the ...more

How so?
All the teams are already there and set up and it gives more time for track and bike maintenance. In fact it gives everyone more time including the organisations involved, as well as a few extra sales for qualifying day.

Not sure why it’s not scheduled that way? Obviously something I’m overlooking or not aware of.

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9/11/2020 4:54 PM

CPR wrote:

Yeah that approach works really well for racing, but the trouble with timed qualifying is you still end up with a single ...more

peltier626 wrote:

Qualifying held the day prior is the inferior solution but involves an added day and ruins the schedule set forth by the ...more

CPR wrote:

How so?
All the teams are already there and set up and it gives more time for track and bike maintenance. In fact it gives ...more

To add on that point, I'd like to thebsee riders spend more time on the track before the races so they can find a comfortable set-up. Might make the racing better?

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9/11/2020 5:18 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/11/2020 5:21 PM

FerCzD wrote:

Gate position should be determined on a qualifying race, as in the GPs.

This is the correct thing to do. First off go back to sunday races. There are a lot of guys that can't make it on saturday due to work. From 98-2007 me and a group of friends hit 2-3 nationals at least a year as many a 5 one year. A couple years around 10 of us took a red eye to Cali to catch glen helen or hangtown.just cause. Since 08 when it went to all Saturdays. I have personally only went a watch a national maybe 6-7 times in 12 years. And its not because i don't want to go. If it switched back to sunday i could hit red bud, millvill and Crawford every year easily. A lot of us have jobs or own business's that can take away our Saturday days. It's not like supercross where first moto starts at what 7:00-730pm. I really think tossing Saturday qualifiers and making everything on saturday was a huge step back. Even from a marketing perspective it doesn't make any sense to me.

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9/11/2020 6:46 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/11/2020 6:47 PM

Do what supercross did in the 90s and early 2000s, put haybales in the lines. Or maybe use the yellow aceribis markers since they knock over then pop up if hit. We used this every race at glen helen and milestone and it worked great.

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9/11/2020 7:01 PM

Bring back 2 day nationals

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9/11/2020 7:06 PM

Great thread. Some easy quick common sense solutions that hopefully are implemented. Racing on multiple line tracks is so much more fun for every level.

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9/11/2020 7:39 PM

The hay bale thing was done at the MXoN in 2007. It worked well.

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9/11/2020 8:23 PM

This is something I’ve thinking for years. I think Blake has a valid point.

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9/11/2020 9:22 PM

Not only does this POST make sense
The Hat makes more sense with a few less letters.

Keep America FREE

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I was a third-string dreamer on a second-place team~ Luke Combs

9/12/2020 3:40 AM

CPR wrote:

Yeah that approach works really well for racing, but the trouble with timed qualifying is you still end up with a single ...more

peltier626 wrote:

Qualifying held the day prior is the inferior solution but involves an added day and ruins the schedule set forth by the ...more

CPR wrote:

How so?
All the teams are already there and set up and it gives more time for track and bike maintenance. In fact it gives ...more

The US Nationals - There's (nearly) always Amateur Racing either before or after - or both - the actual Pro National.

I'd say the amateur races are a great earner for both MX Sports and the Track owner. Fair enough.

It's Absolutely understandable, but, I wish they'd have the Ams Thursday, or the Sunday /Monday, after the event. Leave Friday and Saturday for the Pros, and, whatever 'special' races they have to run with them.

It seems most Teams and Privateers, are at Nationals by Thursday, so they are there for Friday anyway. It's generally, not extending their time there, or taking a day from them.

The MXGPs lately, with the single day for MX2 and MXGP classes and now EMX the day before - are getting mixed reviews from riders. Some love the one day (generally because what they have come from, such as the Aussies) format, some prefer the 2 day format.

I have long wanted it to go back to multiple free practice and Timed Qualifying sessions, like it was years ago.

The qualifying race really brings a shed load more risk ( but hey, Herlings just axed himself in untimed practice - ours Is a risky sport, no matter what) , and, it can get processional. I find practice / Timed sessions in many racing sports, really, really interesting, if filmed and organised well. Heck, I stay up for the US practice, then go to bed and watch the Motos later - most often, already knowing the results of the races.

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9/12/2020 4:56 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/12/2020 5:56 AM

I think the that one of the biggest detriments to one lined outdoor tracks is the Litpro. The technology is incredible and they work so well, but there is no longer any question what line around the track is the shortest/fastest. I know that not everybody runs one, but even without it the amount of data racers have access to they’re surely going to find the quickest lines and they’ll be the same for everyone, Sure some folks will try other things when trying to make a pass or avoid being passed but for the most part, there is 1 way around the track that’s fastest and the riders and teams know which way that is for their rider.

Granted if there are 8 lines through every corner it’s going to make the racing better no doubt as lines change and become gnarlier or stay smoother...

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9/12/2020 5:14 AM

FGR01 wrote:

A club I once belonged to ran races. On race day we would have the track ripped/tilled deep. Before practice we put out hay ...more

I remember going out for practice and having to dodge the track workers and hay bales...

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9/12/2020 6:42 AM

So he is saying without a free practice you wind up just making one line in the quali? The problem is there seems to always be the fastest way around any track, everyone quickly figures that out. Now are we talking multiple lines or fastest way?

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9/12/2020 6:42 AM

I like the one day, saturday, format, but this is the downside to running it all in a single day.

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Make sure you downvote!

9/12/2020 7:17 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/12/2020 7:17 AM

This one is easy....

They rip it too deep and water it too much on race day. It’s really that simple.

Most timed qualifiers have been a slop fest. It’s been like that for years. So naturally one fast line develops through the slop and everyone takes it.

There is hardly anymore creativity by the riders like there used to be. They get in the fast line and that’s it. No more sweeping into a corner. Hardly anymore setting someone up and squaring a corner up.

Water less and don’t rip as deep, and if you still have to over water and rip deep then atleast re-rip the corners before each moto that have 8 ruts but only one fast line. Do this before motos. Let them start with a clean smooth corner. So lines can then develop again during the moto.

I’m of the belief that you shouldn’t touch many things between races so the track is rutted and rough, but something should be done to help develop more then just one fast line through a sloppy mess.

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