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Shown by the lap times in the 250F class vs the 450F class. Not a huge difference. Many times the difference is because of speed in whoops and rhythm section line choices.
Someone pointed out that at some point in SX there will be a jump the 450's are barely making, the 250F's do not attempt, and the 350 will be stuck in the middle. If Short does not step up and at least attempt or make it then that says a lot. Either Short is a puss and cant jump (which I highly doubt) or that Short does not have 100% confidence in his bike.
im far from a pro. im beginner class at best. nevertheless, the 350 has a market.
The Shop
While lap times may be close, how easy is it to pass a 450 on a 250f? Especially when the 450 will be in the fast groove and it's already hard to pass on a 450 out of that groove? The lap times they speak of are clear track, not when passing is needed.
they seem to have faith in the bike
ohhhh that's right it's a massive conspiracy to make their riders ride a bike that they know won't win to make the general public buy the bike
I'm with Jamma I think that's pretty much where short would've ended up but who knows last year was last year, people improve, bikes improve, people get fitter, gain confidence lose confidence... It's stupid to compare two different years
Which is exactly why (in my opinion) you cannot judge the merit of Shorts results at Anaheim because he was stuck in the pack. His fastest lap equated to the 7th fastest time in the 250 class... and if a 450 is soooo much faster than a 350... then surely that means a 350 should be faster than a 250 right???
There are too many variables involved.
2010 Supercross starts/holeshot
Anaheim1
Dungey
Villopoto
Stewart
Short
Stroupe
Phoenix
Dungey
Stroupe
Villopoto
Hill
Tedesco
Short
Anaheim 2
Stroupe
Stewart
Hill
Blose
Dungey
Short
San Francisco
Dungey
Millsaps
Wey
Hill
Blose
Villopoto
Short
San Diego
Wey
Dungey
Millsaps
Tedesco
Short
He was hardly hole shotting every race like people seem to want to believe. He got one bad start, while Alessi gated in 3rd... thats BETTER than any of shorts starts on his 450 Honda!
How were Alessi's starts on the 350 compared to his on the Suzuki the year before at the nationals....?
Go ahead do the same research you did above on the nationals. Ill wait.
And no Im not gonna go back and check all the starts from '09 and '10! I know you're you're right, Mike starts weren't as good... Mike wasn't good full stop last year and I put that down to a lack of focus/preperation caused by the rather rather erratic shit that was going on in the background.
Another thing though... you're also comparing a Rockstar Makita Suzuki RMZ450, arguably the best 450 in the world, against a totally new model of bike in its first year of competition.
When they weighed them at the MXDN, the 450 and the 350 was the exact same weight.
Just kidding.....couldn't resist stirring that pot.
Hey I know what, lets make a bike that turns like a 250 but with a bit more grunt ...
I think they will secretly "up" the cc's in Shorts and Alessi's bikes soon too instead of switching to the actual 450. They can do it legally too, and we dont need to know, meanwhile the "350" will get faster.
If Short doesn't get a top 6 Supercross result this season I will gladly add a derogatory 350 signature!
The CRF450 is the exact same bike/chassis as the 250F, but with a bigger engine. GuyB's article here on Vital says the "FACTORY Honda's" 450 is 6 LBS lighter than the Geico 250F's.
Pit Row
Stop blaiming the bikes, just look at villopoto. on a bike wtih 200 less cc's he holeshoted twice and was the best rider @ the mxon 2007.
Its the rider.
>
The stock 350 may only be 5lbs lighter than the 450 on the scales, but its at high speed that the weight advantage make the difference, and it will - well done to Honda for shaving the weight off their 450's. I applaud them for that, the same way I applaud KTM. It would be interesting to know what Short & Alessi's bikes weigh in comparison.
I still don't think the 350 is a bad bike, that it is better or worse than a 450, or directly responsible for Andrew Short or Mike Alessi's results at Anaheim. Its the suggestion that the 350 will supposedly "ruin careers" that riled me, along with the rhetoric that KTM are trying to pull the wool over our eyes when the simple fact is no one is being forced into buying a 350. Its a matter of choice.
I also wish I hadn't clicked on this thread
The 350 would not win against the 07 or 08 CRF 450, not even close. In fact most of the latest 450s probably wouldn't (MXA).
But you're right it is extremely close. What it comes down to really is fractions. There's isn't any bike that's likely to make you 5 seconds faster or slower. But possibly 2, at a stretch 3 seconds. And for a Pro or any type of serious racer, that's unacceptable. As I said before though I think it's way to early to tell for sure. I mean Andrew could go out next time and finish in the top 5. It's just too early.
Mike had a year to develop the bike, where others have had 8 to 12 years & have a ton of complied data from those years to know what works. The 350 had 0 National Experience heading into Hangtown.
Marketing to pros? You understand these riders are sponsored with salaries & bonuses. I don't think any of the marketing is geared to them, because they aren't buying bikes. A segment of people that are pro & not in the series is extremely small compared to the public. They are racing it for exposure & the thing I disagree about most is not giving riders the choice, but that exposure is to people who aren't pros, people in the seats.
Post a reply to: At waht point does KTM atleast try the 450?