Upgrade to enjoy this feature!
Vital MX fantasy is free to play, but paid users have great benefits. Paid member benefits:
- View and download rider stats
- Pick trends
- Create a private league
- And more!
Only $10 for all 2024 SX, MX, and SMX series (regularly $30).
Just thinking out loud.
But that is not the real question. The question is if we really need the power a 450 delivers. Won't it be easier if you just have a little less power, but a less agressive bike.
If we go 10 years back in time we had the 250 and 500 cc class in Europe. In 2001 and 2002 Stefan Everts won the world championship 500 cc and Mickael Pichon won teh world championship 250 cc. At some events we saw the 250cc and 500 cc ride on the same day, on the same track. And every single time, if you looked at lap times or total race times, Michael Pichon was faster. Why ? Was Pichon faster then Everts or was the 250 cc bike faster then the 500 cc bike ? The answer came in 2003 when they merged the 500cc and 250 cc together in 1 class, the motogp class. Everybody thought that Everts would get his ass kicked big time, but Everts became world champion. And he again beat Pichon in 2004 and 2005. Was Everts better then Pichon ? I think so yes. So how was it possible that in 2001 and 2002 Pichon was faster, even though he was on a 250 cc bike and Everts on the big 500 ? My guess is that back then the 250 cc was better, although it produced a lot less horsepower compared to the big bike. It was lighter, more agile, easier to control.
So yes.. i think that at some tracks the 350 will have an advantage over the 450. And at other tracks it will be the other way around. And the same goes for the riders as well. Some riders will like the 350 better, other riders will like the 450 better.
No matter how you turn it. I think KTM made a fantastic bike. For us amateurs the 350 is without a doubt the better bike. Just read Paul Malins test on it. For pro riders however, it can vary.
Tedesco rode awesome for the majority of the Main on Saturday, whether or not you think Short is better than him, you can't take that fact away from Ivan, likewise Metcalfe. I just find it funny that some people see it as some sort of travesty that neither Short of Alessi got the holeshot when there are what, 20 other gifted riders to contend with, some of whom even have flippin' launch controls now!
For the record Im by no means 'in love with the bike' as you suggest... I've always ridden Honda's and Suzuki's and have no immediate intention of buying a 350. Im not a huge Alessi fan but I admire Shorts understated talent. I simply take issue with people who don't assess at the situation regarding these race results logically and without any sort of reasoning.
Some people seem intent on trying to label the KTM350 as some sort of conspiracy thats been hatched to fool you all or something.
The Shop
Send guys out to get flogged riding this 350, while a perfectly good 450 model sits unspoken for? They can't even put ONE GUY out there on the 450 to see what they get???
People are just wondering what's going on there, and rightly so!
It seems stupid because it IS stupid.
So.. take Andrew Short for instance. If James is more talented, then it is only fair to say that Andrew is less talented. And last year they were both on 450's so their bikes had roughly the same power. The difference was that James was more in control of his bike and therefor faster. So what does Andrew want to do ? He wants to be in control of his bike, just like James Stewart is. Going back to the 350, which is a bike that is easier to ride, means that Andrew will be more in control. He has to loose a little bit of power, but he is more in control of his bike. So do you really think Andrew will be faster on a sx-f 450 ? I don't think so.
If they stop racing it, they may as well stop making them because they will be admitting defeat, and people aren’t going to want them.
When you ride a slow 450, you know it's a slow 450, just as you do when you ride a fast one. Just because the average guy doesn't ride a 450 to it's full potential doesn't mean he'll then go and ride a 250f to it's full potential either.
In fact how many people can truly ride a 125 2 stroke to it's full potential? How many people, Pro or otherwise, can ride a 125 like James Stewart? Yet the majority of people will still be a damn sight faster on the 450. I may not be riding a 450 anywhere near it's potential but that doesn't mean I won't be slower if I then go and jump on a 350 (in fact in my case I most definitely would be).
Amateur or Pro, it doesn't matter. It's only RELATIVE to the rider in question.
The area of the power band I occupy at my skill level is more powerful, more usable on a bigger bike than it is on a smaller one. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to my universe whether I'm riding the bike in question as well as it can be ridden. It's irrelevant.
And in Shorts case, though it's too early to tell for sure right now - a 350 Andrew Short may prove to be slower than a 450 Andrew Short. It's irrelevant what James can do because Andrew's not James. The only thing that matter's is AS 350 vs AS 450, and is there a difference?
Personally I think it's too early to tell, in fact we may never know for sure. Though I must say, at this stage I I have trouble believing that dropping a 100 cc without dropping much weight won't have an effect on a rider's performance.
I can ride a 450 faster than I can ride a 250F, and yet my son will go by me like I am in reverse on his 250F.
But I agree that it wont make everyone faster. It'll be personal preference... Ive seen 125 experts beat a field of experts on 450's... which was my point really and why Short or Alessi's results generally mean shit to the rest of us.
Give them some time to sort it out.
I'm on the fence, regarding Cairoli's bike being a 350.
What you also have to consider is whether KTM are really prepared to risk their entire reputation and all the effort they have spent building such a strong brand in off road motorcycling by lying about it?
I just don't understand the logic behined this constant this witch hunt. I wish I could remember what the publics reaction was to development of the 4stroke back in the 90's, but at the time I was a teenager and only really concerned with watching the racing!
And Jamma, there are LOTS of people who tried the 350 and didnt like it. Did you hear Chad read's opinion of it? I also have a friend who got one of the first ones in Canada, he raced it for 3 weekends in a row in the 450 class, then listed it for sale.
Either you have some kind of interest with KTM or you own a 350 and trying to convince yourself that it is a better bike..... It's not.
Jamma, I agree that the the 350 is getting bashed before it's been proven to be a success or failure, one way or another, but it's shortcomings, if any, will certainly be pronounced in the pro's, especially outdoors. We'll see.
And I don't equate 222's bike being bored or stroked with KTM risking their entire reputation. The bikes are constantly being developed, and they are free to change displacement over there, are they not? AC's Yamaha was reported to be a 400. I wouldn't be surprised if KTM has found a number in that range that is working better for them, but I also could believe it's a 350. Like I said, I could see it going either way, and I don't think KTM would hesitate to punch it out if they thought they needed more power. Over here is a different story. They don't have that option.
Again, most am's would probably be quite happy riding 350cc bikes.
Pit Row
My only issue in this whole debate really, is to question why people continue to try and prove that its such a bad bike, as though they're gonna be forced into buying one against their will.
People are looking at the results of Anaheim 1, hell even the troubled Alessi's '10 outdoor results, and deciding that it won't be competitive in the amateur ranks, as if the whole thing is just a con.
KTM had a perfectly competitive 450, one of the most powerful on the market, yet they had enough boldness & belief in a new type of bike that they were prepared to stick their neck on the line to build it for the benefit of all of us. Why try and knock them down for that?
In my opinion they're not the best barometers... KTM should have pushed harder for one of the top 4 or Pourcel.
KTM is a niche manufacturer, they haven't gotten where they are by competing directly against the Big 4.
When was the last time you saw any of these bikes raced:
125sx
150sx
150xc
250sx
300xc
200xc
KTM makes a ton of different models, that the big 4 don't. They have 100% of the sales in those markets because they have Zero competition.
The 350 is the same deal. There are a ton of people out there that want more power than a 250 & not as much as a 450. My guess is this segment is mostly vet riders & the weekend warriors. KTM will have 100% of these sales because there is no competition. Most vet riders (myself included) could careless about how the 350 finishes in sx because: 1) The bikes KTM (or any manufacturer) is racing far from what's sold on the floor. 2) I know what my wants from a bike are & how it finishes in sx has no impact on my desire because I will never ride sx.
KTM will do excellent with the 350 sales, regardless of how it finishes in sx.
And from what we are seeing so far, it's a flop. The 2 pro riders that they put on it looks like crap on it, compared to before.
They BOTH looked WAY better on the bikes they came off.
here you are debating with guys you would not listen to
about bike advice if you saw them ride or saw their bike set up
at a track.
Somebody obviously invested very heavily.
They don't let them ride the 690s over there anymore.
You have a limit on traction and how much you can physically hold on. If what you were saying were true more people would riding Aprillia v-twins. But they aren't, because they put out over 65 HP and send your arms into a comatose like state of arm pump.
This bike was supposed to be easier to ride and easier to go fast on, especially since NO ONE can use ALL the power of a 450.
Now think of this, is it easier to ride a bike making gobs of tractable power at 6,500 rpm or a bike that makes it's best power over 12,000 rpm? It isn't about max horsepower, it's about useable power.
Go read the MXA shootout, KTM 350 vs KTM 450. Yeah blasphemous because MXA sucks blah blah. They make some very keen observations. Guess which wins.
The 350 is a marketing ploy and it actually works very well for sales. Most of the "anti-350 side" is speaking in terms of Pro competition. Which is what the original question of this thread is, when do they at least try the 450? Many say they can't at this point, but I think they will have to sooner or later. Or hire a top top rider for twice what he would make at any other team.
Post a reply to: At waht point does KTM atleast try the 450?