At waht point does KTM atleast try the 450?

The Rock
Profile picture for user The Rock
Posts
8763
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI US
The Rock 1/9/2011 5:48pm
1/9/2011 5:48pm
zippy895 wrote:
u really feel team ktm was 100 percent ready at round ?
Exactly!

I went straight to the KTM pits and wound up speaking with Sel for about ten minutes. Short version is the team knows what needs to be done and they're looking forward to next weekend.

With DeCoster steering the ship I have no doubt we will see the 350s at the front of the pack at the starts during the season.
jamma10
Profile picture for user jamma10
Posts
10576
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
jamma10 1/9/2011 5:50pm
1/9/2011 5:50pm
aFACEdismembered wrote:
The important question is what will they do if Cedric Soubeyras shows up next week and beats both 350's on a 2 smoker? It's not likely...
The important question is what will they do if Cedric Soubeyras shows up next week and beats both 350's on a 2 smoker? It's not likely he will beat Short but it's not an impossibility.
Propaganda! wrote:
RACE FACE is right.... YOU HAVE TO STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT NO CHOICE EXISTS. KTM spent a LOT of money developing and promoting the 350 and their...
RACE FACE is right.... YOU HAVE TO STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT NO CHOICE EXISTS.

KTM spent a LOT of money developing and promoting the 350 and their objective is to make it a profitable exercise. You have to think about things like how long people were lead to believe that the 350 was "So Light"... When someone finally put the thing on a scale for a direct PUBLIC comparison, it was revealed as only 5 lbs lighter than the 450!

In modern commerce, you aren't allowed to LIE to the public, so what you do instead is you tell enough half truths to cause them to formulate the desired opinion by lying to themselves.

Switching riders off the 350 during a premier racing series like AMA Supercross would amount to a public relations DISASTER for the highly touted bike.

At the same time, unless better results can be achieved quickly the race program as it currently stands is negative publicity.

KTM is in a very tough and interesting position and I'm dying to see how they'll handle it.

Thanks,

Jim
Other than speculative threads started by relative nobodies on internet forums such as this, when were you and the rest of the general public duped into believing this hideous propaganda that KTM seem to be spreading exactly?

Its a motorcycle. No one is holding a gun to peoples heads and telling them they have to buy it.

Tarz483
Profile picture for user Tarz483
Posts
6352
Joined
2/25/2009
Location
Mankato, MN US
Fantasy
583rd
Tarz483 1/9/2011 5:51pm
1/9/2011 5:51pm
BORE THAT BIOTCH OUT , LOL

Really a bit early to say all this after 1 race isnt it ?

if they start winning everything every brand will have 350 in a couple years

kinda like yamaha with the whole 4 stroke revolution ahh ..
BattlezFMX 1/9/2011 5:53pm
1/9/2011 5:53pm
Propaganda! wrote:
RACE FACE is right.... YOU HAVE TO STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT NO CHOICE EXISTS. KTM spent a LOT of money developing and promoting the 350 and their...
RACE FACE is right.... YOU HAVE TO STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT NO CHOICE EXISTS.

KTM spent a LOT of money developing and promoting the 350 and their objective is to make it a profitable exercise. You have to think about things like how long people were lead to believe that the 350 was "So Light"... When someone finally put the thing on a scale for a direct PUBLIC comparison, it was revealed as only 5 lbs lighter than the 450!

In modern commerce, you aren't allowed to LIE to the public, so what you do instead is you tell enough half truths to cause them to formulate the desired opinion by lying to themselves.

Switching riders off the 350 during a premier racing series like AMA Supercross would amount to a public relations DISASTER for the highly touted bike.

At the same time, unless better results can be achieved quickly the race program as it currently stands is negative publicity.

KTM is in a very tough and interesting position and I'm dying to see how they'll handle it.

Thanks,

Jim
Bingo!

The Shop

See All »
jamma10
Profile picture for user jamma10
Posts
10576
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
jamma10 1/9/2011 5:54pm
1/9/2011 5:54pm
Propaganda! wrote:
RACE FACE is right.... YOU HAVE TO STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT NO CHOICE EXISTS. KTM spent a LOT of money developing and promoting the 350 and their...
RACE FACE is right.... YOU HAVE TO STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT NO CHOICE EXISTS.

KTM spent a LOT of money developing and promoting the 350 and their objective is to make it a profitable exercise. You have to think about things like how long people were lead to believe that the 350 was "So Light"... When someone finally put the thing on a scale for a direct PUBLIC comparison, it was revealed as only 5 lbs lighter than the 450!

In modern commerce, you aren't allowed to LIE to the public, so what you do instead is you tell enough half truths to cause them to formulate the desired opinion by lying to themselves.

Switching riders off the 350 during a premier racing series like AMA Supercross would amount to a public relations DISASTER for the highly touted bike.

At the same time, unless better results can be achieved quickly the race program as it currently stands is negative publicity.

KTM is in a very tough and interesting position and I'm dying to see how they'll handle it.

Thanks,

Jim
BattlezFMX wrote:
Bingo!
Dingo!
kx1984
Profile picture for user kx1984
Posts
240
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
San Jose, CA US
kx1984 1/9/2011 6:07pm
1/9/2011 6:07pm
aFACEdismembered wrote:
The important question is what will they do if Cedric Soubeyras shows up next week and beats both 350's on a 2 smoker? It's not likely...
The important question is what will they do if Cedric Soubeyras shows up next week and beats both 350's on a 2 smoker? It's not likely he will beat Short but it's not an impossibility.
Propaganda! wrote:
RACE FACE is right.... YOU HAVE TO STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT NO CHOICE EXISTS. KTM spent a LOT of money developing and promoting the 350 and their...
RACE FACE is right.... YOU HAVE TO STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT NO CHOICE EXISTS.

KTM spent a LOT of money developing and promoting the 350 and their objective is to make it a profitable exercise. You have to think about things like how long people were lead to believe that the 350 was "So Light"... When someone finally put the thing on a scale for a direct PUBLIC comparison, it was revealed as only 5 lbs lighter than the 450!

In modern commerce, you aren't allowed to LIE to the public, so what you do instead is you tell enough half truths to cause them to formulate the desired opinion by lying to themselves.

Switching riders off the 350 during a premier racing series like AMA Supercross would amount to a public relations DISASTER for the highly touted bike.

At the same time, unless better results can be achieved quickly the race program as it currently stands is negative publicity.

KTM is in a very tough and interesting position and I'm dying to see how they'll handle it.

Thanks,

Jim
jamma10 wrote:
Other than speculative threads started by relative nobodies on internet forums such as this, when were you and the rest of the general public duped into...
Other than speculative threads started by relative nobodies on internet forums such as this, when were you and the rest of the general public duped into believing this hideous propaganda that KTM seem to be spreading exactly?

Its a motorcycle. No one is holding a gun to peoples heads and telling them they have to buy it.

But for some reason , I feel like KTM is way more likely to "push' the riders to help them sell the latest product.
OldGuy
Profile picture for user OldGuy
Posts
80
Joined
3/27/2009
Location
Red Neck, MO US
OldGuy 1/9/2011 6:16pm
1/9/2011 6:16pm
I don't understand how anyone can say the 350 is slower than the 450 in SX,except maybe for the start.
Lap times don't lie. These times taken from SX Qualifying A #1 and Lites Qualifying A #1.

You can see that Ken Roczen on the KTM 250sxf has a best lap time of 59.609.

Ryan Villopoto has a best lap time of 59.672.

That makes Roczen faster on a 250 that Villopoto on a 450.

That should answer the 250 350 450 question as how fast the bikes can be with the right rider aboard.


Lites

1 194 Ken Roczen Mattstedt, Germany KTM 250SXF 59.609
2 23 Martin Davalos Cairo, GA, USA Suzuki RMZ250 59.644
3 100 Joshua Hansen Elbert, CO, USA Kawasaki KX250F 1:00.585
4 35 Kyle Cunningham Aledo, TX, USA Yamaha YZ250F 1:00.626
5 28 Tyla Rattray Wildomar, CA, USA Kawasaki KX250F 1:00.819

SX Class

1 7 James Stewart Haines City, FL, USA Yamaha YZ450 58.748
2 22 Chad Reed Dade City, FL, USA Honda CRF450R 59.063
3 2 Ryan Villopoto Seattle, WA, USA Kawasaki KX450F 59.672
4 41 Trey Canard Shawnee, OK, USA Honda CRF450R 59.673
5 1 Ryan Dungey Belle Plaine, MN, USA Suzuki RMZ450 59.771
6 9 Ivan Tedesco Murrieta, CA, USA Kawasaki KX450F 59.807
7 14 Kevin Windham Centreville, MS, USA Honda CRF450R 59.930
8 10 Justin Brayton Cornelius, NC, USA Yamaha YZ450F 1:00.176
9 33 Joshua Grant Riverside, CA, USA Honda CRF450R 1:00.274
10 29 Andrew Short Smithville, TX, USA KTM 350SXF 1:00.726
MillsHondaRider 1/9/2011 6:40pm
1/9/2011 6:40pm
The most obvious example of the fine line was seen in the middle of the long rhythm section. None of the 250Fs were doing the quad. All of the top 450 guys were - except Short.... Hmmm

Would the quad have made much difference? Probably not. Did it point out a potential weakness between the 350 and 450?

Can't tell me Short wouldn't have been doing the quad the his '10 factory Honda 450.
Faceaz
Profile picture for user Faceaz
Posts
1365
Joined
7/28/2008
Location
Glendale, AZ US
Faceaz 1/9/2011 7:18pm
1/9/2011 7:18pm
The anti 350 guys are ingoring how stacked the field is this year. Last year Short was a 2nd to 5th place guy. Add in guys that have more speed (and are healthy now) - Stewart, Reed, Villopotto, Grant, possibly Canard / Windham + his usual finish from last year & you have 7th to 10th place.

One race doesn't prove anything.

The bike also has quite a bit to go in development. It's not like KTM is an seasoned team in the 450 class & they really have quite a ways to go (new bike, new manager, newer to the big bikes in SX as a team). Another few races & Short will be finishing around 6th or 7th. After some attrition, he'll be in the top 5 by the end of the series - exactly where we saw him last year before everyone fell off
morning_stiffy
Profile picture for user morning_stiffy
Posts
435
Joined
9/27/2010
Location
Rancho Cucamonga, CA US
morning_stiffy 1/9/2011 7:29pm
1/9/2011 7:29pm
zippy895 wrote:
u really feel team ktm was 100 percent ready at round ?
KTM is never ready... KTM wont win a championship this year, or any time in the near future. I dont know what all the hype was about anyways...
adamdf
Profile picture for user adamdf
Posts
2119
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
St. Michael BB
adamdf 1/9/2011 7:30pm
1/9/2011 7:30pm
kx1984 wrote:
Sell your 350's while they still have some value. The wreck is going down ,get out before you drown.
Sillyness...are you being sarcastic?

Must be

What does a race team's results at A1 have to do with "average joe" on sunday?

Are you that guy that wears everything in the catalog?
]
The guy that would ride a yamaha just because Bubba does (sometimes) ?
GoldenState54 1/9/2011 7:34pm
1/9/2011 7:34pm Edited Date/Time 1/9/2011 7:35pm
Shorty looked a thousand times better on the Honda. Honda should have never let him go.

Faceaz
Profile picture for user Faceaz
Posts
1365
Joined
7/28/2008
Location
Glendale, AZ US
Faceaz 1/9/2011 7:37pm
1/9/2011 7:37pm
kx1984 wrote:
Sell your 350's while they still have some value. The wreck is going down ,get out before you drown.
I'll be first inline for someone selling their 350, haven't seen a single one come up. Can't justify a new bike, but really want a 350.
kx1984
Profile picture for user kx1984
Posts
240
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
San Jose, CA US
kx1984 1/9/2011 7:41pm
1/9/2011 7:41pm
kx1984 wrote:
Sell your 350's while they still have some value. The wreck is going down ,get out before you drown.
adamdf wrote:
Sillyness...are you being sarcastic? Must be What does a race team's results at A1 have to do with "average joe" on sunday? Are you that guy...
Sillyness...are you being sarcastic?

Must be

What does a race team's results at A1 have to do with "average joe" on sunday?

Are you that guy that wears everything in the catalog?
]
The guy that would ride a yamaha just because Bubba does (sometimes) ?
You mean this guy?
09 KX450 - RG3 Suspension and clamps, MRD Exhaust
hartebreak
Profile picture for user hartebreak
Posts
2522
Joined
9/16/2009
Location
Portland, OR US
Fantasy
169th
hartebreak 1/9/2011 7:42pm
1/9/2011 7:42pm
well if anything, KTM has the right guy in charge over there to improve the bikes throughout the year. I think KTM will make gigantic leaps this year in developing that bike with them getting seat time during race conditions with Roger looking on.
kx1984
Profile picture for user kx1984
Posts
240
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
San Jose, CA US
kx1984 1/9/2011 7:44pm
1/9/2011 7:44pm
But the 350 was going to be the perfect bike. There would be no anti 350 if there was'nt soo much 350 hype as the perfect bike.
in2mx
Profile picture for user in2mx
Posts
110
Joined
4/1/2010
Location
Rosburg, OR US
in2mx 1/9/2011 8:14pm
1/9/2011 8:14pm
its because nobody wants to ride a carb. anymore if that 450 was efi theyd be riding it
aFACEdismembered 1/9/2011 8:58pm
1/9/2011 8:58pm
MillsHondaRider wrote:
The most obvious example of the fine line was seen in the middle of the long rhythm section. None of the 250Fs were doing the quad...
The most obvious example of the fine line was seen in the middle of the long rhythm section. None of the 250Fs were doing the quad. All of the top 450 guys were - except Short.... Hmmm

Would the quad have made much difference? Probably not. Did it point out a potential weakness between the 350 and 450?

Can't tell me Short wouldn't have been doing the quad the his '10 factory Honda 450.
Short was having problems doing the quad at Lakewood on a 450... that's how Townley passed him. I've never seen Short as the kind of guy who can finesse a few extra tenths out of a bike. Tomac did the quad in practice from what I hear so a 350 CAN do it.

Pit Row

See All »
junglefrankjoe 1/9/2011 9:11pm
1/9/2011 9:11pm
The 350 needs more torque to be able to hang with the full blown 450s. It would be nice to see a small bore specialist on one though. Short isn't that guy. 350 = good woods/GP bike.
CamP
Profile picture for user CamP
Posts
6828
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX US
CamP 1/9/2011 9:41pm
1/9/2011 9:41pm
22% less displacement is a handicap that most professional racers won't be able to overcome.
Deetsmx
Profile picture for user Deetsmx
Posts
880
Joined
4/21/2008
Location
Visalia, CA US
Deetsmx 1/9/2011 9:56pm
1/9/2011 9:56pm
aFACEdismembered wrote:
Short was having problems doing the quad at Lakewood on a 450... that's how Townley passed him. I've never seen Short as the kind of guy...
Short was having problems doing the quad at Lakewood on a 450... that's how Townley passed him. I've never seen Short as the kind of guy who can finesse a few extra tenths out of a bike. Tomac did the quad in practice from what I hear so a 350 CAN do it.
Tomac tried it about 3 times and didn't really get close. Front wheel made it over but he just bounced off the next few jumps. As far as Short's start, he got a horrible jump in the main and then someone hit his front wheel about halfway down. I think people need to give it a few races before jumping to conclusions. Using the logic around here millsaps bike must suck too and the same with grants Honda since they did worse then last year.
the_wood109
Profile picture for user the_wood109
Posts
3008
Joined
7/6/2008
Location
Edgewater, FL US
the_wood109 1/9/2011 9:56pm
1/9/2011 9:56pm Edited Date/Time 1/9/2011 9:58pm
It's a good point with the laptimes, especially in SX. However, I see two former holeshot masters now getting mid pack to poor starts. Of course it is Shorty's first race on the bike, but if the tracks are like they were this weekend, the start is everything.

Also, consider Hank's point that the average laptime is only 1/10th apart for the top 3 and 3/10ths for the top four. This makes the start very important, and so far makes me change my tune. As of now, the 350 looks like a disadvantage.
luv2ridemx
Profile picture for user luv2ridemx
Posts
25
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Visalia, CA US
luv2ridemx 1/10/2011 1:24am
1/10/2011 1:24am
Faceaz wrote:
The anti 350 guys are ingoring how stacked the field is this year. Last year Short was a 2nd to 5th place guy. Add in guys...
The anti 350 guys are ingoring how stacked the field is this year. Last year Short was a 2nd to 5th place guy. Add in guys that have more speed (and are healthy now) - Stewart, Reed, Villopotto, Grant, possibly Canard / Windham + his usual finish from last year & you have 7th to 10th place.

One race doesn't prove anything.

The bike also has quite a bit to go in development. It's not like KTM is an seasoned team in the 450 class & they really have quite a ways to go (new bike, new manager, newer to the big bikes in SX as a team). Another few races & Short will be finishing around 6th or 7th. After some attrition, he'll be in the top 5 by the end of the series - exactly where we saw him last year before everyone fell off
Faceaz thanks for the most logical post on this subject my thoughts are in alignment with yours. Short and Alessi would fall off last years positions if Short was on his Honda and Alessi on his Suzuki with Canard moving up Reed, Stewart and Villopoto back that's moving Short from 3rd to 7th no matter what bike he's on.

Don't take it that I don't respect him he's a conservative mature rider that gets results long term not by hanging it out. A fine ambassador for our sport and Decoster recognized his ability to share info on setup to help him with the progression of getting the 350 more competitive.

We'll see if Ktm puts the EFI on the 450 next year if they show up with 450's then they will have accepted the fact they can't give away the torque from of the loss of 100 cc's.

Maybe the answer would be to increase it to 400cc like the first yz I loved that engine.

I don't post much as I don't care for the bashing you get from the children who hide behind their keyboards and prey the boards waiting for an opportunity to bag on someone and they don't even ride or attend the races.
TripleDigit 1/10/2011 2:33am
1/10/2011 2:33am
Sherwood wrote:
People still can't understand that the GP bikes are works and the A.m.A bikes are production based. Listening to the 350's at gp's I refuse to...
People still can't understand that the GP bikes are works and the A.m.A bikes are production based. Listening to the 350's at gp's I refuse to believe it's the same bike.
What you hear is also a more strangled exhaust and running poorer fuel,just by saying "works" doesn't mean you have some magical machine,they run much the same standard of stuff in AMA and GP's,Pro Circuit Kawis are probably better than the works 250's and a strong comparison case is Desalle flying over and riding an AMA bike without his preferred suspension and running upfront with Dungey

The class is more stacked with everyone fit (fingers crossed) Short may have got a better start on the Honda but would probably of finished in a similar position
R-acer
Profile picture for user R-acer
Posts
4047
Joined
3/20/2008
Location
Toronto CA
R-acer 1/10/2011 2:38am
1/10/2011 2:38am
Dont worry, a 420cc big bore kit will be bolted on for this weekend on those "350" Laughing
jamma10
Profile picture for user jamma10
Posts
10576
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
jamma10 1/10/2011 3:17am
1/10/2011 3:17am
the_wood109 wrote:
It's a good point with the laptimes, especially in SX. However, I see two former holeshot masters now getting mid pack to poor starts. Of course...
It's a good point with the laptimes, especially in SX. However, I see two former holeshot masters now getting mid pack to poor starts. Of course it is Shorty's first race on the bike, but if the tracks are like they were this weekend, the start is everything.

Also, consider Hank's point that the average laptime is only 1/10th apart for the top 3 and 3/10ths for the top four. This makes the start very important, and so far makes me change my tune. As of now, the 350 looks like a disadvantage.
People need to open their eyes.

Alessi was third into the first corner in the final. The 350's didn't win because neither Short or Alessi have Supercross skills to match Ryan Villopoto, Ryan Dungey, James Stewart, Chad Reed etc etc...

Were people seriously expecting Short to check out and win by 10 seconds or something?
mccread
Profile picture for user mccread
Posts
5933
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
mccread 1/10/2011 4:22am
1/10/2011 4:22am
dunn2500 wrote:
doesnt matter they will still finish in the same place...........short and alessi wont run at the top of the pack, on any size bike or brand.........the...
doesnt matter they will still finish in the same place...........short and alessi wont run at the top of the pack, on any size bike or brand.........the thread is pointless
RaceFace wrote:
I totally agree with this. I don't expect Alessi to even qualify for all the rounds this year. For Short, he should be closer time-wise if...
I totally agree with this. I don't expect Alessi to even qualify for all the rounds this year. For Short, he should be closer time-wise if not in position. KTM fans were asking why he wasn't a pick for top-5 coming in. He was 10th, but the last guy to not be lapped and almost 30 seconds behind 5th place. If you don't think he could have done better on the Honda...well, that's your opinion. He is about where I thought he would be, but I was factoring in the 350.

Shorty got 4th at both Anaheim rounds last year. In the 2nd one he was only 10 seconds off the leader and 4 seconds behind Stewart in 3rd. He was ahead of Villopoto, WIndham, and Tedesco. So is 10th where he belongs? I guess we'll see how things play out.
This year RV is riding better, Reed is racing as is Grant, Canard is racing... that is him down to 8th. Not much difference beteween 8th and 10th speed wise imo. Everts also said Short rode nervous. Roczen's time was faster than Shorts and he was on a 250f in practice... it's not the bike.

To get into the top 10 in that class riding tight it a pretty good accomplishment... the field is a lot more stacked this year.
mccread
Profile picture for user mccread
Posts
5933
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
mccread 1/10/2011 4:23am
1/10/2011 4:23am
the_wood109 wrote:
It's a good point with the laptimes, especially in SX. However, I see two former holeshot masters now getting mid pack to poor starts. Of course...
It's a good point with the laptimes, especially in SX. However, I see two former holeshot masters now getting mid pack to poor starts. Of course it is Shorty's first race on the bike, but if the tracks are like they were this weekend, the start is everything.

Also, consider Hank's point that the average laptime is only 1/10th apart for the top 3 and 3/10ths for the top four. This makes the start very important, and so far makes me change my tune. As of now, the 350 looks like a disadvantage.
jamma10 wrote:
People need to open their eyes. Alessi was [b]third[/b] into the first corner in the final. The 350's didn't win because neither Short or Alessi have...
People need to open their eyes.

Alessi was third into the first corner in the final. The 350's didn't win because neither Short or Alessi have Supercross skills to match Ryan Villopoto, Ryan Dungey, James Stewart, Chad Reed etc etc...

Were people seriously expecting Short to check out and win by 10 seconds or something?
never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
indy_maico
Profile picture for user indy_maico
Posts
4983
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Indianapolis, IN US
indy_maico 1/10/2011 6:19am
1/10/2011 6:19am
I'd like to see a shoot-out of the KTM 350 vs the KTM 250 2-stroke.

I'd think the 250 would kill it. Maybe Short or Alessi should try one if they don't want to ride the 450.
BobbyM
Profile picture for user BobbyM
Posts
21449
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
AZ US
BobbyM 1/10/2011 6:56am
1/10/2011 6:56am
burnside wrote:
Question is.. how much better do you think Short and Alessi would have done on a 450? You really think they would have done much better...
Question is.. how much better do you think Short and Alessi would have done on a 450? You really think they would have done much better? I don't.

Remember Roczen's quali time was better than both of theres anyway.
on a honda or suzuki i guarantee it.

Post a reply to: At waht point does KTM atleast try the 450?