As a side note to the union discussion...

GuyB
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5/3/2010 10:51am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2012 8:28am
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
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CamP
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5/3/2010 10:52am
Yes...
rc4187
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5/3/2010 10:52am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2010 10:53am
so things wouldn't be any different?

edit: yes... i'm still on board. safety is number one. i don't need a guy to crash his brains out to be entertained.
*
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5/3/2010 10:56am
this is what needs to be brought up.

hash it out....

something needs to change, though, regarding rider safety.
Farva
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5/3/2010 11:00am
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
People will bitch one way or another.

I'd rather people bitch about it being too safe, rather than unsafe.

The Shop

magoo23
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5/3/2010 11:02am
yes, I would be on board and support the racers
Coyote
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5/3/2010 11:03am
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
Sure sounds like SLC SX to me!!
Titan1
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5/3/2010 11:06am
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
Everyone but Oldfart...I think (if the other thread-slc whoops-or whatever it was called, is any indication).

How about if next season there is a race and just before the main, the riders want a section changed, FELD doesn't agree and won't change it...riders boycott...everyone has already spent hundreds of dollars on tickets, food, gas, hotels, time off work...and there won't be a main event....everyone still on board then?
txmxer
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5/3/2010 11:07am
Farva wrote:
People will bitch one way or another.

I'd rather people bitch about it being too safe, rather than unsafe.
I agree with Sinbad.
GuyB
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5/3/2010 11:07am
Coyote wrote:
Sure sounds like SLC SX to me!!
You think? Wink

In a roundabout way, that's sort of what I'm trying to ask. Right now, support all seems there for the riders, which is awesome. But would everyone accept it from the riders differently than from the promoters/sanction/track builders?

Or does everyone turn on them, too?
flarider
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5/3/2010 11:08am
In regards to part one, no.
The riders got to walk and ride the track in practice, that is when changes need to be brought to light. Other than basic maintenance, such as grooming ruts on a jump face, once racing has begun, the track is set.

In regards to part two, that is on a per event basis obviously, but is that the decision of the riders or the race manager? And what limitations or parameters are there to making that decision? It is my opinion that supercross is an indoor version of motocross and if an event is run in the mud, it's a mud race and should run the full distance. MX was meant to run rain or shine, and I feel the same for SX. Both fans and sponsors deserve to have full races run, the actual racing is short enough as it is. Maybe someone can help me, but I cannot remember one serious injury as a result of racing in the mud.
Regis
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5/3/2010 11:09am
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYBODY.

That was my point in Oldfarts' post about cutting the laps in the 450 main. When this comes up, who do you blame and are you happy if the riders get the final say?

Thanks Guyb for posting this as I wanted to but didn't want to make another thread on the issue.
GuyB
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5/3/2010 11:10am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2010 11:10am
Titan1 wrote:
Everyone but Oldfart...I think (if the other thread-slc whoops-or whatever it was called, is any indication). How about if next season there is a race and...
Everyone but Oldfart...I think (if the other thread-slc whoops-or whatever it was called, is any indication).

How about if next season there is a race and just before the main, the riders want a section changed, FELD doesn't agree and won't change it...riders boycott...everyone has already spent hundreds of dollars on tickets, food, gas, hotels, time off work...and there won't be a main event....everyone still on board then?
I was going for a milder version to gauge reaction. I think you went to terminal velocity. Smile

And for the record, I think the riders should have a better voice in safety issues.
oldAFI
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5/3/2010 11:11am
It doesn't matter if we're on board. SLC was shortened and it didn't matter what the fans thought; and safty issues between riders and promoters has nothing to do with fans.
bogdan912
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5/3/2010 11:14am
Make vegas 5 laps longer to make up for it!

On a serious note I don't see what the problem is with cutting laps because the riders asked for it. The majority of riders wouldn't want to cut laps unless there was a real need for it, so it's not like they are going to end up running 10lap mains because the riders are lazy...
FreshTopEnd
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5/3/2010 11:14am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:35pm
Titan1 wrote:
Everyone but Oldfart...I think (if the other thread-slc whoops-or whatever it was called, is any indication). How about if next season there is a race and...
Everyone but Oldfart...I think (if the other thread-slc whoops-or whatever it was called, is any indication).

How about if next season there is a race and just before the main, the riders want a section changed, FELD doesn't agree and won't change it...riders boycott...everyone has already spent hundreds of dollars on tickets, food, gas, hotels, time off work...and there won't be a main event....everyone still on board then?
No, everyone won't. Duh. But there's no way around it, and it begs the question of whether riders should have to ride a track when it's their consensus decision that it's unsafe as set up.

Both the promoter and the riders have to take into account that people will be pissed at both of them if they can't reach agreement.

It should never come to that, just as it probably should never have to come to the point where the riders feel they have to organize to get a promoter to act on their input on modifying a track for the sake of safety.
Regis
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5/3/2010 11:16am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:35pm
flarider wrote:
In regards to part one, no. The riders got to walk and ride the track in practice, that is when changes need to be brought to...
In regards to part one, no.
The riders got to walk and ride the track in practice, that is when changes need to be brought to light. Other than basic maintenance, such as grooming ruts on a jump face, once racing has begun, the track is set.

In regards to part two, that is on a per event basis obviously, but is that the decision of the riders or the race manager? And what limitations or parameters are there to making that decision? It is my opinion that supercross is an indoor version of motocross and if an event is run in the mud, it's a mud race and should run the full distance. MX was meant to run rain or shine, and I feel the same for SX. Both fans and sponsors deserve to have full races run, the actual racing is short enough as it is. Maybe someone can help me, but I cannot remember one serious injury as a result of racing in the mud.
Dave,

You're right. On one hand MX and SX is a mans sport and this isn't supposed to be an issue. But it was and a decision was made in favor of the riders and we have backlash on the promotors for not making the riders "stick it out". As far as your "I cannot remember one serious injury as a result of racing in the mud" - Do you know if the mud was the only factor in cutting the laps? My sources tell me it was the cold and not being able to hold on, info given from riders. This was a special circumstance and not just your average mud race> When was the last time it snowed at an event? Imagine if we lost another rider and he did an interview where he slammed the promotors for making them ride while they couldn't hold on?

damned if you do and damned if you don't in this instance.

And when decisions are made, immediately press releases are going to have to be sent pointing fingers to save face.

My question is this, races have been shortened before in SX and there didn't seem to be an issue. Is this a case where a couple of people have the power of the keyboard to make a big deal out of nothing? I think so.
ayearinmx
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5/3/2010 11:20am
GuyB wrote:
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...
So far fan reaction to the proposed rider's union seems pretty positive. Now just to play devil's advocate for a second, follow along with me here...

Say we're into the 2011 season, and there's a race where there's inclement weather and a sketchy set of whoops. The rider's group gets together and suggests that the whoops get flattened before the main event...in the interest of safety.

Later, they also suggest that because of the conditions, where it's so cold and wet that the riders coming off the track after the 250 main say that they can't feel their hands...they've gone completely numb, and they want the 450 main to be shortened by five laps.

Are you guys still on board?
well the promoters have already set the precedent for the second point... and if the riders and promoters can't reach an agreement about safety, i think i'd side with the people who's safety is actually endangered

let's face it, tracks get changed all the time (indoors and outdoors) by the promoters/track owners to please all manner of sponsors/tv companies etc.... at least if the riders get a track changed, there'd be a valid reason behind it for a change
dl117
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5/3/2010 11:21am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:35pm
I agree with adding the laps to Vegas.....just cuz I am going for the first time.


I think rider safety is the most important thing, we dont need to have no riders left at the end of the season. I just hope we have a good outdoors with less loss.
GuyB
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5/3/2010 11:23am
You want more laps in Vegas? Step away from the casinos, or the pool at your hotel, or the gentleman's club, and get there in time for practice.

Adding laps to make up for last week? Uh....no.
5/3/2010 11:23am
as fans, the majority of which have never even set foot on a SX track, it should always defer to the riders. Always.

The vast majority of fans have no true concept or perspective on a SX track. How can you make a judgement call on something you have no knowledge about? You cant.

I have been on a SX track, a real SX track, twice. These guys make it look so easy and simple, its very very easy to take it for granted how truely difficult it is! You think its easy? Go race a local AX am day when they cut the track down, then contemplate how it was for the pro's, then imagine 3 times as many jumps and lanes on a SX track. Then you might have some persepctive.

This has been a long time coming, it needs to be done, (riders union) and I hope while here, the EU conterparts see this beginning and do something as well.
motomike137
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5/3/2010 11:26am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:35pm
If we are talking SX... yes & yes

If we are talking MX... yes & no
Titan1
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5/3/2010 11:30am
Titan1 wrote:
Everyone but Oldfart...I think (if the other thread-slc whoops-or whatever it was called, is any indication). How about if next season there is a race and...
Everyone but Oldfart...I think (if the other thread-slc whoops-or whatever it was called, is any indication).

How about if next season there is a race and just before the main, the riders want a section changed, FELD doesn't agree and won't change it...riders boycott...everyone has already spent hundreds of dollars on tickets, food, gas, hotels, time off work...and there won't be a main event....everyone still on board then?
GuyB wrote:
I was going for a milder version to gauge reaction. I think you went to terminal velocity. And for the record, I think the riders should...
I was going for a milder version to gauge reaction. I think you went to terminal velocity. Smile

And for the record, I think the riders should have a better voice in safety issues.
I agree...the riders should have a large voice in safety....

I brought up the boycott thing because I think it's a riders right, and as a result a realistic scenario....

But i will say this, if the riders feel a section of a track is dangerous (like the jump Reed complained about, and RV and IT crashed on), couldn't they still race, and simply not do that jump or jump combo??? Sure it might be slower, but if saftey is so important, wouldn't it be worth it?

The fastest guys are always doing sections others aren't/can't/choose not to do (largely because it's to dangerous for them, and not worth the risk)....it isn't unheard of....it would suck if they built the tracks so that even the slowest guy could do every single possible jump combo....tough jump combos separate the men from the boys so to speak....Even if they race, the promoter can't make them jump a section.

I don't know what i'm trying to say here....I feel it's a riders right to be able to boycott a particular race (and I'd encourage them to do so if they feel the track isn't safe), but at the same time, they could also race, and just not do certain jump combos, or ride slow through certain sections to protec their saftey, as well....hmmmm.

(Sorry for the rambling post...I was typing as my mind was thining through this....)
JBR13
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5/3/2010 11:30am
I am on board for the riders to have a big say in their safety!

That said, there could be problem areas.

1. New or fare weather fans will not accept the riders boycotting a race. We want the sport to bring in more people and popularity, but this would hurt the sport.

2. No offense, but west coast fans have multiple races close together, so they may not fuss a lot if A2 was boycotted. On the east coast, you boycott Atlanta SX, and you may have a lot of pi$$ed people, that can't make it to another SX the entire season.

There have been hockey, football and baseball strikes in the past that took a toll on how the fans looked at the players unions. That is just something this group needs to look at and be ready for.

I believe that IF the riders had to boycott a race, and ALL stuck together, it would be a one time deal! That may suck for a race, but if it saves a career or a life, I am all for it!!


JBR
huck
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5/3/2010 11:33am
I don't believe that I've seen a football game cancelled because it's too cold?


Why on earth would races be scheduled in OPEN AIR arena's that time of the year, in that part of the country?

GuyB
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5/3/2010 11:37am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2010 11:38am
If you want a big fuss, go back to when the CART drivers opted not to race at Texas Motor Speedway because they felt the the g forces were causing them to black out.

And Huck, I've never seen football players hitting a set of whoops or clearing a triple...though it might make the sport more entertaining for me. Wink
Regis
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5/3/2010 11:38am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:35pm
In response to Titan1

Very true.

Personally, I never got the whole, "the obstacles are dangerous" argument. Boats next to track, weather, flagging, track prep, dirt conditions (i.e. metal stakes, bricks, nails, ash) I can see. But making changes to obstacles to make them "safer" so that some feel more comfortable doing the jump I just don't get. If your not comfy doing something then you have to not do it. If that means you aren't as competitive then so be it. It sucks, don't get me wrong I don;t want to see people get hurt but tracks are supposed to seperate those who want to hang it out and those who don't.
bogdan912
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5/3/2010 11:46am
GuyB wrote:
You want more laps in Vegas? Step away from the casinos, or the pool at your hotel, or the gentleman's club, and get there in time...
You want more laps in Vegas? Step away from the casinos, or the pool at your hotel, or the gentleman's club, and get there in time for practice.

Adding laps to make up for last week? Uh....no.
I thought the /sarcasm was implied...
motomike137
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5/3/2010 11:48am
Regis wrote:
In response to Titan1Very true. Personally, I never got the whole, "the obstacles are dangerous" argument. Boats next to track, weather, flagging, track prep, dirt conditions...
In response to Titan1

Very true.

Personally, I never got the whole, "the obstacles are dangerous" argument. Boats next to track, weather, flagging, track prep, dirt conditions (i.e. metal stakes, bricks, nails, ash) I can see. But making changes to obstacles to make them "safer" so that some feel more comfortable doing the jump I just don't get. If your not comfy doing something then you have to not do it. If that means you aren't as competitive then so be it. It sucks, don't get me wrong I don;t want to see people get hurt but tracks are supposed to seperate those who want to hang it out and those who don't.
Regis, I respectfully disagree with your opinion on the obstacles. To me there is a range of acceptability for riders within certain skill level and when one of the best says something needs an adjustment I would have to listen to them. Also I think a lot of folks forget there is and should be more to MX/SX than clearing obstacles.
GuyB
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5/3/2010 11:49am
bogdan912 wrote:
I thought the /sarcasm was implied...
You weren't the only one who'd suggested it. Wink
Titan1
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5/3/2010 11:51am
huck wrote:
I don't believe that I've seen a football game cancelled because it's too cold? Why on earth would races be scheduled in OPEN AIR arena's that...
I don't believe that I've seen a football game cancelled because it's too cold?


Why on earth would races be scheduled in OPEN AIR arena's that time of the year, in that part of the country?

Hey now, it was 75 and sunny in SLC a week ago...we just hit some rotten luck with the weather is all-plus, global warming is cooling the earth...so blame it on fossil fuels if you will, but don't take my local supercross.

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