Are the racers smartening up? Low entries

jbomx363
Posts
2008
Joined
9/4/2007
Location
Denham Springs, LA US
Edited Date/Time 5/26/2017 11:44am
43 entries 250's this week.

With lack of a good purse (sure $70k, unless it went up this year, per event sounds like a lot...but..reality, not so much) are racers finally getting the idea that they just cannot make it?

Chasing the dream just can't pay the bills? Only way, for a 20-40 guy to make it is be on a team that pays all expenses, plus a small salary. Of course those teams, if their racer gets good enough to move to another team.. spent all that for what?

Is the sport pricing it out of itself?

Will AMA MX become the same as the GP's? Teams pay the racers on their teams bills, no purse?

Can a top local make more on local race money than in the Nationals? More money in AX and sit the outdoors out?

Risk vs reward not strong enough?

"Millennials" too lazy or no ambition and want everything handed to them that the top riders get? Sarcasm.. kind of.

"real" jobs are more important too them?

What is the reason for the low amount of entries?

|
5/25/2017 7:51am
It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top 5 guy on the track, if you're riding a near stock bike you simply can't compete with the PC, Geico, or factory KTMs.


Let them run 2T's and I'd bet you'd see some more entries. It won't immediately fix the problem, but it would give people a more economical option to be competitive.
Starcrossed
Posts
3162
Joined
4/16/2014
Location
New Bedford, MA US
5/25/2017 8:00am
The cost to field a competitive 250 may be keeping some of the smaller teams away, but there are usually a contingent of locals who welcome a once a year chance to measure themselves against the fastest in the sport. Most local pros in the NESC series have a 450, and a 250 2 Stroke to run in the 250 class. Some pros run the two stroke in both NESC pro classes. 250F ownership is probably significantly less than 450s or two strokes. Concussion baseline testing is required, and may be an obstacle for the local pro planning to attend only one or two events.
kzizok
Posts
8393
Joined
10/19/2010
Location
AS US
Fantasy
2068th
5/25/2017 8:00am Edited Date/Time 5/25/2017 8:09am
I wondered how long it would take, if it was going to happen, for the "bottom up" decline in MX to affect the highest level of racing. Local, regional, and national amatuer MX is a shell of itself. A lot of it doesn't even exist anymore. It appears it is making its way to the pinnacle of MX racing in the US. Its certainly is cause for concern. I understand that as it moves east, we should see some increase. But the baseline numbers are lower than normal, and in decline.
GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
5/25/2017 8:06am
jbomx363 wrote:
43 entries 250's this week. With lack of a good purse (sure $70k, unless it went up this year, per event sounds like a lot...but..reality, not...
43 entries 250's this week.

With lack of a good purse (sure $70k, unless it went up this year, per event sounds like a lot...but..reality, not so much) are racers finally getting the idea that they just cannot make it?

Chasing the dream just can't pay the bills? Only way, for a 20-40 guy to make it is be on a team that pays all expenses, plus a small salary. Of course those teams, if their racer gets good enough to move to another team.. spent all that for what?

Is the sport pricing it out of itself?

Will AMA MX become the same as the GP's? Teams pay the racers on their teams bills, no purse?

Can a top local make more on local race money than in the Nationals? More money in AX and sit the outdoors out?

Risk vs reward not strong enough?

"Millennials" too lazy or no ambition and want everything handed to them that the top riders get? Sarcasm.. kind of.

"real" jobs are more important too them?

What is the reason for the low amount of entries?

So you're saying they were dumb before?

The Shop

ob
Posts
1624
Joined
3/14/2010
Location
Carlsbad, CA US
5/25/2017 8:12am
Seems like there are generally just less really fast local guys. And even less with the money and backing to not lose their shorts just to say they tried to qualify for an outdoor national. Especially when the gate is pretty much taken up by team guys. That's an expensive weekend race. Maybe?
Johnny Depp
Posts
6438
Joined
10/16/2014
Location
Buda, TX US
5/25/2017 8:36am
Smart enough to be willing to race the variety of other series where their sponsors can get some exposure and can therefore afford to support a racer. Canada, AX, SX, GP's even offroad.

You would think the true privateers would be in abundance in Cali, I would assume the barriers to participation (points) prevent many from trying. You don't have to choose a 250.
5/25/2017 8:42am Edited Date/Time 5/25/2017 8:46am
It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top...
It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top 5 guy on the track, if you're riding a near stock bike you simply can't compete with the PC, Geico, or factory KTMs.


Let them run 2T's and I'd bet you'd see some more entries. It won't immediately fix the problem, but it would give people a more economical option to be competitive.
First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race?

Secondly you're saying that a top 5 guy cannot show up on a stock bike and compete? (Define stock) cause nobody that is racing is riding a stock bike and I know plenty of fast guys that can dial in a good suspension tune and still run with some of the top guys. It's not all about power, however these days with fuel injection it is much easier to obtain power than it has been in years past

Lastly, racers are able to run smokers if they choose to do so. However that would be a waist of time and money and run the risk of major injury trying to keep up with the brute power of the 4 stroke, most of these guys are running local series events that pay the way into the big shows like racing the outdoors. So why be on a bike that isn't going to be competitive

kott0n
Posts
674
Joined
10/4/2016
Location
Vancouver, WA US
Fantasy
3779th
5/25/2017 8:46am
It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top...
It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top 5 guy on the track, if you're riding a near stock bike you simply can't compete with the PC, Geico, or factory KTMs.


Let them run 2T's and I'd bet you'd see some more entries. It won't immediately fix the problem, but it would give people a more economical option to be competitive.
First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race? Secondly you're saying that a top 5...
First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race?

Secondly you're saying that a top 5 guy cannot show up on a stock bike and compete? (Define stock) cause nobody that is racing is riding a stock bike and I know plenty of fast guys that can dial in a good suspension tune and still run with some of the top guys. It's not all about power, however these days with fuel injection it is much easier to obtain power than it has been in years past

Lastly, racers are able to run smokers if they choose to do so. However that would be a waist of time and money and run the risk of major injury trying to keep up with the brute power of the 4 stroke, most of these guys are running local series events that pay the way into the big shows like racing the outdoors. So why be on a bike that isn't going to be competitive

At the current cc disadvantages *
ob
Posts
1624
Joined
3/14/2010
Location
Carlsbad, CA US
5/25/2017 8:47am
Exactly!
kkawboy14
Posts
11494
Joined
6/5/2015
Location
TX US
5/25/2017 9:13am
Back in the day a local pro could ride the closest pro race and then make a lot of money just off of teaching local kids.....it seems like that market has dried up some
5/25/2017 9:18am
It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top...
It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top 5 guy on the track, if you're riding a near stock bike you simply can't compete with the PC, Geico, or factory KTMs.


Let them run 2T's and I'd bet you'd see some more entries. It won't immediately fix the problem, but it would give people a more economical option to be competitive.
First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race? Secondly you're saying that a top 5...
First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race?

Secondly you're saying that a top 5 guy cannot show up on a stock bike and compete? (Define stock) cause nobody that is racing is riding a stock bike and I know plenty of fast guys that can dial in a good suspension tune and still run with some of the top guys. It's not all about power, however these days with fuel injection it is much easier to obtain power than it has been in years past

Lastly, racers are able to run smokers if they choose to do so. However that would be a waist of time and money and run the risk of major injury trying to keep up with the brute power of the 4 stroke, most of these guys are running local series events that pay the way into the big shows like racing the outdoors. So why be on a bike that isn't going to be competitive

1. Are you familiar with what a nationals caliber 250F is like to maintain? They are pumping over 50HP these days, what do you think that does to the internals and what the costs associated are?

2. I never mentioned a 450.

3. "It's not all about power". Right, because that's why privateers pull holeshots all of the time. Skill and timing is a very big part of it, but you're lying to yourself if you think Plessinger, Martin, or Forkner don't benefit from factory horsepower off of the gate.

4. Racers are not able to run smokers at the level they want to. It's why you don't see a 250 2T in the 250 class, they can only run against 450's and at that point, you're basically it's racing for fun. You can't be competitive in outdoors with a 2T under the current rules.
5/25/2017 9:22am
GuyB wrote:
So you're saying they were dumb before?
From a financial standpoint, probably.
500guy
Posts
12478
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
AZ US
5/25/2017 9:23am
TripleFive wrote:
From a financial standpoint, probably.
I think that could be said about 99.9% of the people who participate in any Sport or hobby.
500guy
Posts
12478
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
AZ US
5/25/2017 9:24am
I look at it like this, The GP's still have great racing and the 20 best guy's are still there. The rest either need to cut the mustard or cut the cord.
GreaseMeter
Posts
94
Joined
5/18/2017
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
5/25/2017 9:25am
I honesty think the issues are the 4 strokes. 2 strokes produce better racing, cheaper to work on, and more fun. I know that wont be a popular opinion and may shun me, but its just my opinion.
BobPA
Posts
8029
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
5/25/2017 9:25am
First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race? Secondly you're saying that a top 5...
First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race?

Secondly you're saying that a top 5 guy cannot show up on a stock bike and compete? (Define stock) cause nobody that is racing is riding a stock bike and I know plenty of fast guys that can dial in a good suspension tune and still run with some of the top guys. It's not all about power, however these days with fuel injection it is much easier to obtain power than it has been in years past

Lastly, racers are able to run smokers if they choose to do so. However that would be a waist of time and money and run the risk of major injury trying to keep up with the brute power of the 4 stroke, most of these guys are running local series events that pay the way into the big shows like racing the outdoors. So why be on a bike that isn't going to be competitive

250 class is a lot about power. Smaller displacement classes always bring huge dollars, not just Moto.
PRM31
Posts
2140
Joined
8/7/2009
Location
Northern, VA US
5/25/2017 9:31am
The more expensive bikes become, the fewer participants at the local level, the fewer that develop to the pro level. You also have fewer people buying tires, jerseys, or going to Nationals or SX as spectators. The numbers of riders at the grass roots level is the foundation of the sport. Reduce those numbers and the rest will suffer. From what I have seen, the numbers of racers a the local level now, vs. the late 70s and early 80s when I was racing, is significantly reduced. I'm sure there are other societal factors, but affordable bikes that guys can work on is a big factor.
OW38B
Posts
3224
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Coto de Caza, CA US
Fantasy
203rd
5/25/2017 9:38am
I honesty think the issues are the 4 strokes. 2 strokes produce better racing, cheaper to work on, and more fun. I know that wont be...
I honesty think the issues are the 4 strokes. 2 strokes produce better racing, cheaper to work on, and more fun. I know that wont be a popular opinion and may shun me, but its just my opinion.
You have "wisdom beyond your years" Cool
mxtech1
Posts
1958
Joined
7/21/2011
Location
Galesburg, IL US
5/25/2017 10:09am
In the 250 class specifically, I think the big problem is that the 20th-40th privateer guys think they HAVE to have the $40-50K race bike to go out there. WHY? Are the results going to be that much different between a full mod bike vs a stock based bike with a mild motor and good suspension? The answer is no. But the industry, fans, and moto community have convinced them that it is expected and the norm....you either drop the cash to play or you stay home.

There is no magic solution with 4 strokes in place in the 250 class. There is already limiting rules that the AMA puts in place to keep the bikes "factory based" but we all see how well that is working.....

The easiest and most practical solution is to allow 2T in the 250 class.

The other big issue is obviously fees and payouts. Racers for a pro event should not have to pay for a pro card, a gate fee, or a race entry fee.

You guys have to understand that the share/stakeholders who run the shows are still making plenty of money, and nothing will drastically change until they start feeling profit loss below their acceptable targets.
Tracktor
Posts
2344
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
The RTF/Amboy, WA US
5/25/2017 10:13am
What's the reward for chasing the dream and becoming a pro-Mx'er? Making Feld rich while going broke yourself and risking life ending injury? BRILLIANT!

MX is a participant sport so trying to become like NASCAR which is a spectator sport is killing it.

The risk/reward ratio of professional MX is so skewed it's silly....................
jbomx363
Posts
2008
Joined
9/4/2007
Location
Denham Springs, LA US
5/25/2017 10:16am
GuyB wrote:
So you're saying they were dumb before?

Smarten(ing): to make or become smarter.
jbomx363
Posts
2008
Joined
9/4/2007
Location
Denham Springs, LA US
5/25/2017 10:21am Edited Date/Time 5/25/2017 11:01am
Tracktor wrote:
What's the reward for chasing the dream and becoming a pro-Mx'er? Making Feld rich while going broke yourself and risking life ending injury? BRILLIANT! MX is...
What's the reward for chasing the dream and becoming a pro-Mx'er? Making Feld rich while going broke yourself and risking life ending injury? BRILLIANT!

MX is a participant sport so trying to become like NASCAR which is a spectator sport is killing it.

The risk/reward ratio of professional MX is so skewed it's silly....................
Basically... an industry that takes advantage of the youth and their youthful dreams.

Yes.. they have "choice", but with the snakes out there that want to sell product, obfuscation is rampant enough that most youth and/or their parents don't see whats real and not real.
motomike137
Posts
6898
Joined
4/22/2010
Location
Fenton, MI US
5/25/2017 10:32am
kzizok wrote:
I wondered how long it would take, if it was going to happen, for the "bottom up" decline in MX to affect the highest level of...
I wondered how long it would take, if it was going to happen, for the "bottom up" decline in MX to affect the highest level of racing. Local, regional, and national amatuer MX is a shell of itself. A lot of it doesn't even exist anymore. It appears it is making its way to the pinnacle of MX racing in the US. Its certainly is cause for concern. I understand that as it moves east, we should see some increase. But the baseline numbers are lower than normal, and in decline.
Imho this is spot on. It is a complicated equation why this is happening but at grass roots level the sport really has declined a lot. Once the current crop of Vets stop showing up things will really get tough. The younger generations don't have the finances or the interest in motorsports like we once had.
philG
Posts
9718
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
5/25/2017 10:49am
Speaking to someone who knows, they told me their current motors do 4 hours , before valves and springs get changed , and 8 on a piston and rod, and the bill is £2k just for the parts. 250F , good level rider .

Not sustainable.
KennyT
Posts
4185
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Vista, CA US
Fantasy
233rd
5/25/2017 11:08am
Places 20-40 in both classes have nothing to race for other than fun...if 90 degrees on rutted tracks is considered fun.

Let's get the top 20 from each class into the "International" class and the bottom 20 from each into the Support class. Then the guys making nothing and having no chance of even getting a top ten have something to race for. And the fans get the 40 best riders in the Country on the same gate....as it should be
Spanky162
Posts
17
Joined
1/10/2012
Location
Boise, ID US
5/25/2017 11:14am
I’ve heard that off-road numbers for some of the national and regional series are actually up. Based upon the topic of this discussion, it’s more than likely not a coincidence. Off-road delivers more bang for the buck in a more laid-back environment. Show up in the morning, race starts at noon, race for two hours and you are out by 3-4 pm. No waiting around all day for two four lap motos. Series like the Full Gas and J Day Sprint Enduros seem like a super fun format that has appeal to both moto and off-road riders alike.
dedi684
Posts
1355
Joined
8/21/2009
Location
Ravena, NY US
5/25/2017 11:24am
Spanky162 wrote:
I’ve heard that off-road numbers for some of the national and regional series are actually up. Based upon the topic of this discussion, it’s more than...
I’ve heard that off-road numbers for some of the national and regional series are actually up. Based upon the topic of this discussion, it’s more than likely not a coincidence. Off-road delivers more bang for the buck in a more laid-back environment. Show up in the morning, race starts at noon, race for two hours and you are out by 3-4 pm. No waiting around all day for two four lap motos. Series like the Full Gas and J Day Sprint Enduros seem like a super fun format that has appeal to both moto and off-road riders alike.
Imho that's the core of the sport not sx because it's on tv. About to do a j day enduro this year. 80% 2 strokes too so if that dont tell you something.....
bama205
Posts
1490
Joined
10/7/2010
Location
Williamson County, TN US
5/25/2017 11:37am
I've always thought an open privateer class would be cool. A third class. No factory riders allowed. Let factory riders get paid from their teams and the purse go to the open-private class. Maybe the factories could pull riders from that class as well. This isn't an ametuer class, it's pros without salary paying rides/factory bikes.
Kenman
Posts
24
Joined
1/28/2014
Location
New Castle, DE US
5/25/2017 11:55am
Unfortunately the cost to make a 250F competitive is at least the same cost as buying a bike brand new. I had a bike built for a rider who got suspension work free of charge and it cost approx 8k including exhaust, Ecu, long rod, polish/treat everything, full clutch setup. Not to include suspension hubs/wheels, bars etc.. the fuel is $26 a gallon and it is a purpose built bike that is only for nationals. Factor in the travel time and expense to just get there and it's not even close to making any type of logical sense.. however, the rider did qualify straight in and fulfilled a lifelong dream that is priceless..

But you end up with a 10-20k purpose built bike that you only want to ride at nationals. Not many people can afford that.

This same rider at district races and Pro-Am's runs a stock bike (250 & 450) and usually wins the A/Open A classes.

That's what it takes to get in unless you have a low turnout and play the numbers game.

The sport is dominated by the big teams who use MX for it marketing and throw insane amounts of money (relatively speaking) to get tv spots and air time. JGR for example and their primary sponsor Toyota.

Post a reply to: Are the racers smartening up? Low entries

The Latest