Are the racers smartening up? Low entries

Related:
Create New Tag

5/25/2017 7:39 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/25/2017 7:41 AM

43 entries 250's this week.

With lack of a good purse (sure $70k, unless it went up this year, per event sounds like a lot...but..reality, not so much) are racers finally getting the idea that they just cannot make it?

Chasing the dream just can't pay the bills? Only way, for a 20-40 guy to make it is be on a team that pays all expenses, plus a small salary. Of course those teams, if their racer gets good enough to move to another team.. spent all that for what?

Is the sport pricing it out of itself?

Will AMA MX become the same as the GP's? Teams pay the racers on their teams bills, no purse?

Can a top local make more on local race money than in the Nationals? More money in AX and sit the outdoors out?

Risk vs reward not strong enough?

"Millennials" too lazy or no ambition and want everything handed to them that the top riders get? Sarcasm.. kind of.

"real" jobs are more important too them?

What is the reason for the low amount of entries?

|

5/25/2017 7:51 AM

It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top 5 guy on the track, if you're riding a near stock bike you simply can't compete with the PC, Geico, or factory KTMs.


Let them run 2T's and I'd bet you'd see some more entries. It won't immediately fix the problem, but it would give people a more economical option to be competitive.

|

If it can't be fixed with a hammer, it's an electrical problem.

5/25/2017 8:00 AM

The cost to field a competitive 250 may be keeping some of the smaller teams away, but there are usually a contingent of locals who welcome a once a year chance to measure themselves against the fastest in the sport. Most local pros in the NESC series have a 450, and a 250 2 Stroke to run in the 250 class. Some pros run the two stroke in both NESC pro classes. 250F ownership is probably significantly less than 450s or two strokes. Concussion baseline testing is required, and may be an obstacle for the local pro planning to attend only one or two events.

|

5/25/2017 8:00 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/25/2017 8:09 AM

I wondered how long it would take, if it was going to happen, for the "bottom up" decline in MX to affect the highest level of racing. Local, regional, and national amatuer MX is a shell of itself. A lot of it doesn't even exist anymore. It appears it is making its way to the pinnacle of MX racing in the US. Its certainly is cause for concern. I understand that as it moves east, we should see some increase. But the baseline numbers are lower than normal, and in decline.

|

much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





5/25/2017 8:06 AM

jbomx363 wrote:

43 entries 250's this week.

With lack of a good purse (sure $70k, unless it went up this year, per event sounds like a lot...but..reality, not so much) are racers finally getting the idea that they just cannot make it?

Chasing the dream just can't pay the bills? Only way, for a 20-40 guy to make it is be on a team that pays all expenses, plus a small salary. Of course those teams, if their racer gets good enough to move to another team.. spent all that for what?

Is the sport pricing it out of itself?

Will AMA MX become the same as the GP's? Teams pay the racers on their teams bills, no purse?

Can a top local make more on local race money than in the Nationals? More money in AX and sit the outdoors out?

Risk vs reward not strong enough?

"Millennials" too lazy or no ambition and want everything handed to them that the top riders get? Sarcasm.. kind of.

"real" jobs are more important too them?

What is the reason for the low amount of entries?

So you're saying they were dumb before?

|

5/25/2017 8:07 AM

very expensive,

too dangerous. (saddest part)

|

5/25/2017 8:12 AM

Seems like there are generally just less really fast local guys. And even less with the money and backing to not lose their shorts just to say they tried to qualify for an outdoor national. Especially when the gate is pretty much taken up by team guys. That's an expensive weekend race. Maybe?

|

5/25/2017 8:36 AM

Smart enough to be willing to race the variety of other series where their sponsors can get some exposure and can therefore afford to support a racer. Canada, AX, SX, GP's even offroad.

You would think the true privateers would be in abundance in Cali, I would assume the barriers to participation (points) prevent many from trying. You don't have to choose a 250.

|

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

5/25/2017 8:42 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/25/2017 8:46 AM

SeaClassExpert wrote:

It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top 5 guy on the track, if you're riding a near stock bike you simply can't compete with the PC, Geico, or factory KTMs.


Let them run 2T's and I'd bet you'd see some more entries. It won't immediately fix the problem, but it would give people a more economical option to be competitive.

First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race?

Secondly you're saying that a top 5 guy cannot show up on a stock bike and compete? (Define stock) cause nobody that is racing is riding a stock bike and I know plenty of fast guys that can dial in a good suspension tune and still run with some of the top guys. It's not all about power, however these days with fuel injection it is much easier to obtain power than it has been in years past

Lastly, racers are able to run smokers if they choose to do so. However that would be a waist of time and money and run the risk of major injury trying to keep up with the brute power of the 4 stroke, most of these guys are running local series events that pay the way into the big shows like racing the outdoors. So why be on a bike that isn't going to be competitive

|

5/25/2017 8:46 AM

SeaClassExpert wrote:

It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top 5 guy on the track, if you're riding a near stock bike you simply can't compete with the PC, Geico, or factory KTMs.


Let them run 2T's and I'd bet you'd see some more entries. It won't immediately fix the problem, but it would give people a more economical option to be competitive.

2WheelsForTheMasses wrote:

First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race?

Secondly you're saying that a top 5 guy cannot show up on a stock bike and compete? (Define stock) cause nobody that is racing is riding a stock bike and I know plenty of fast guys that can dial in a good suspension tune and still run with some of the top guys. It's not all about power, however these days with fuel injection it is much easier to obtain power than it has been in years past

Lastly, racers are able to run smokers if they choose to do so. However that would be a waist of time and money and run the risk of major injury trying to keep up with the brute power of the 4 stroke, most of these guys are running local series events that pay the way into the big shows like racing the outdoors. So why be on a bike that isn't going to be competitive

At the current cc disadvantages *

|

5/25/2017 8:47 AM

Exactly!

|

5/25/2017 9:13 AM

Back in the day a local pro could ride the closest pro race and then make a lot of money just off of teaching local kids.....it seems like that market has dried up some

|

5/25/2017 9:18 AM

SeaClassExpert wrote:

It's simply because very few people can afford to rebuild these 250F's after every race, they simply cost too much money. Even if you're a top 5 guy on the track, if you're riding a near stock bike you simply can't compete with the PC, Geico, or factory KTMs.


Let them run 2T's and I'd bet you'd see some more entries. It won't immediately fix the problem, but it would give people a more economical option to be competitive.

2WheelsForTheMasses wrote:

First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race?

Secondly you're saying that a top 5 guy cannot show up on a stock bike and compete? (Define stock) cause nobody that is racing is riding a stock bike and I know plenty of fast guys that can dial in a good suspension tune and still run with some of the top guys. It's not all about power, however these days with fuel injection it is much easier to obtain power than it has been in years past

Lastly, racers are able to run smokers if they choose to do so. However that would be a waist of time and money and run the risk of major injury trying to keep up with the brute power of the 4 stroke, most of these guys are running local series events that pay the way into the big shows like racing the outdoors. So why be on a bike that isn't going to be competitive

1. Are you familiar with what a nationals caliber 250F is like to maintain? They are pumping over 50HP these days, what do you think that does to the internals and what the costs associated are?

2. I never mentioned a 450.

3. "It's not all about power". Right, because that's why privateers pull holeshots all of the time. Skill and timing is a very big part of it, but you're lying to yourself if you think Plessinger, Martin, or Forkner don't benefit from factory horsepower off of the gate.

4. Racers are not able to run smokers at the level they want to. It's why you don't see a 250 2T in the 250 class, they can only run against 450's and at that point, you're basically it's racing for fun. You can't be competitive in outdoors with a 2T under the current rules.

|

If it can't be fixed with a hammer, it's an electrical problem.

5/25/2017 9:22 AM

GuyB wrote:

So you're saying they were dumb before?

From a financial standpoint, probably.

|

5/25/2017 9:23 AM

TripleFive wrote:

From a financial standpoint, probably.

I think that could be said about 99.9% of the people who participate in any Sport or hobby.

|

5/25/2017 9:24 AM

I look at it like this, The GP's still have great racing and the 20 best guy's are still there. The rest either need to cut the mustard or cut the cord.

|

5/25/2017 9:25 AM

I honesty think the issues are the 4 strokes. 2 strokes produce better racing, cheaper to work on, and more fun. I know that wont be a popular opinion and may shun me, but its just my opinion.

|

5/25/2017 9:25 AM

2WheelsForTheMasses wrote:

First off why would you need to rebuild a 250f or for that matter a 450 after every race?

Secondly you're saying that a top 5 guy cannot show up on a stock bike and compete? (Define stock) cause nobody that is racing is riding a stock bike and I know plenty of fast guys that can dial in a good suspension tune and still run with some of the top guys. It's not all about power, however these days with fuel injection it is much easier to obtain power than it has been in years past

Lastly, racers are able to run smokers if they choose to do so. However that would be a waist of time and money and run the risk of major injury trying to keep up with the brute power of the 4 stroke, most of these guys are running local series events that pay the way into the big shows like racing the outdoors. So why be on a bike that isn't going to be competitive

250 class is a lot about power. Smaller displacement classes always bring huge dollars, not just Moto.

|

Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

5/25/2017 9:31 AM

The more expensive bikes become, the fewer participants at the local level, the fewer that develop to the pro level. You also have fewer people buying tires, jerseys, or going to Nationals or SX as spectators. The numbers of riders at the grass roots level is the foundation of the sport. Reduce those numbers and the rest will suffer. From what I have seen, the numbers of racers a the local level now, vs. the late 70s and early 80s when I was racing, is significantly reduced. I'm sure there are other societal factors, but affordable bikes that guys can work on is a big factor.

|

5/25/2017 9:38 AM

GreaseMeter wrote:

I honesty think the issues are the 4 strokes. 2 strokes produce better racing, cheaper to work on, and more fun. I know that wont be a popular opinion and may shun me, but its just my opinion.

You have "wisdom beyond your years" cool

|

"Welcome to Southern California......the mecca of motocross racing." ~ Jason Wiegant

5/25/2017 10:09 AM

In the 250 class specifically, I think the big problem is that the 20th-40th privateer guys think they HAVE to have the $40-50K race bike to go out there. WHY? Are the results going to be that much different between a full mod bike vs a stock based bike with a mild motor and good suspension? The answer is no. But the industry, fans, and moto community have convinced them that it is expected and the norm....you either drop the cash to play or you stay home.

There is no magic solution with 4 strokes in place in the 250 class. There is already limiting rules that the AMA puts in place to keep the bikes "factory based" but we all see how well that is working.....

The easiest and most practical solution is to allow 2T in the 250 class.

The other big issue is obviously fees and payouts. Racers for a pro event should not have to pay for a pro card, a gate fee, or a race entry fee.

You guys have to understand that the share/stakeholders who run the shows are still making plenty of money, and nothing will drastically change until they start feeling profit loss below their acceptable targets.

|

5/25/2017 10:13 AM

What's the reward for chasing the dream and becoming a pro-Mx'er? Making Feld rich while going broke yourself and risking life ending injury? BRILLIANT!

MX is a participant sport so trying to become like NASCAR which is a spectator sport is killing it.

The risk/reward ratio of professional MX is so skewed it's silly....................

|

5/25/2017 10:16 AM

GuyB wrote:

So you're saying they were dumb before?


Smarten(ing): to make or become smarter.
|

5/25/2017 10:21 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/25/2017 11:01 AM

Tracktor wrote:

What's the reward for chasing the dream and becoming a pro-Mx'er? Making Feld rich while going broke yourself and risking life ending injury? BRILLIANT!

MX is a participant sport so trying to become like NASCAR which is a spectator sport is killing it.

The risk/reward ratio of professional MX is so skewed it's silly....................

Basically... an industry that takes advantage of the youth and their youthful dreams.

Yes.. they have "choice", but with the snakes out there that want to sell product, obfuscation is rampant enough that most youth and/or their parents don't see whats real and not real.

|

5/25/2017 10:32 AM

kzizok wrote:

I wondered how long it would take, if it was going to happen, for the "bottom up" decline in MX to affect the highest level of racing. Local, regional, and national amatuer MX is a shell of itself. A lot of it doesn't even exist anymore. It appears it is making its way to the pinnacle of MX racing in the US. Its certainly is cause for concern. I understand that as it moves east, we should see some increase. But the baseline numbers are lower than normal, and in decline.

Imho this is spot on. It is a complicated equation why this is happening but at grass roots level the sport really has declined a lot. Once the current crop of Vets stop showing up things will really get tough. The younger generations don't have the finances or the interest in motorsports like we once had.

|

5/25/2017 10:49 AM

Speaking to someone who knows, they told me their current motors do 4 hours , before valves and springs get changed , and 8 on a piston and rod, and the bill is £2k just for the parts. 250F , good level rider .

Not sustainable.

|

5/25/2017 11:08 AM

Places 20-40 in both classes have nothing to race for other than fun...if 90 degrees on rutted tracks is considered fun.

Let's get the top 20 from each class into the "International" class and the bottom 20 from each into the Support class. Then the guys making nothing and having no chance of even getting a top ten have something to race for. And the fans get the 40 best riders in the Country on the same gate....as it should be

|

5/25/2017 11:14 AM

I’ve heard that off-road numbers for some of the national and regional series are actually up. Based upon the topic of this discussion, it’s more than likely not a coincidence. Off-road delivers more bang for the buck in a more laid-back environment. Show up in the morning, race starts at noon, race for two hours and you are out by 3-4 pm. No waiting around all day for two four lap motos. Series like the Full Gas and J Day Sprint Enduros seem like a super fun format that has appeal to both moto and off-road riders alike.

|

5/25/2017 11:24 AM

Spanky162 wrote:

I’ve heard that off-road numbers for some of the national and regional series are actually up. Based upon the topic of this discussion, it’s more than likely not a coincidence. Off-road delivers more bang for the buck in a more laid-back environment. Show up in the morning, race starts at noon, race for two hours and you are out by 3-4 pm. No waiting around all day for two four lap motos. Series like the Full Gas and J Day Sprint Enduros seem like a super fun format that has appeal to both moto and off-road riders alike.

Imho that's the core of the sport not sx because it's on tv. About to do a j day enduro this year. 80% 2 strokes too so if that dont tell you something.....

|

5/25/2017 11:37 AM

I've always thought an open privateer class would be cool. A third class. No factory riders allowed. Let factory riders get paid from their teams and the purse go to the open-private class. Maybe the factories could pull riders from that class as well. This isn't an ametuer class, it's pros without salary paying rides/factory bikes.

|