Are dealer “freight” fees legit?

Muzzle
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2/4/2021 6:47pm
Everyone talking about Tesla is ignoring the fact that ONLY Tesla has that right currently. They lobbied in order for the right to be direct to...
Everyone talking about Tesla is ignoring the fact that ONLY Tesla has that right currently. They lobbied in order for the right to be direct to consumer as a "Tech" company and not a vehicle manufacturer.

This is why Tesla can sell you a part but make no effort to provide documentation for repair, unlike Ford, Chevy, BMW, or Toyota.

Additionally, Tesla "dealers" are not dealers. They are service centers.
This is exactly right. I work for an auto OEM and we couldn't sell directly to consumers even if we wanted to. There are many states that have franchise laws in place that prevent it, in order to protect their dealerships. I would venture that those same laws would apply to powersports dealers as well.

I believe that eventually OEMs will move to direct sales models and dealerships will turn into service centers. The time it takes to get there will depend on how long dealers can lobby their legislators to keep protections in place.

Nobody likes going into a dealer to buy a car or a bike. Right now it's just a necessary evil.
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8tensolutions
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2/4/2021 6:48pm
Titan1. wrote:
With the current business model, all they want to do is punt product to dealers...but...to say that will never change (as customer expectations and technology changes)...
With the current business model, all they want to do is punt product to dealers...but...to say that will never change (as customer expectations and technology changes) is short sighted.
philG wrote:
The 'customer' as defined by your average Vitard wants everything for fuck all. I decree that if the current system changes , you will have 2...
The 'customer' as defined by your average Vitard wants everything for fuck all.

I decree that if the current system changes , you will have 2 choices, take it or leave it. And guess what , they would rather sell less bikes, for more money.

This is why 'Luxury Brands' are considered a luxury, because people will pay for the privilege , just to show you they can, and off the back off that , they will push the prices skyward as a result.

A motorcycle isnt a phone. It needs a buying experience. I would never buy anything like a bike, over the phone, or click and collect, anyone who does , is a twat.
Titan1. wrote:
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in...
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in fact, I'd say that as younger generations become the buyers, they will want less and less of that.

And don't forget, when you say "take it or leave it"...there is still competition in the market...the OEM's still have to compete with one another for each sell...they can't just jack their prices up any more with direct to consumer, than they can now.
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car to your house and I imagine your Honda dealer will deliver a CRF to you. Same same.
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TeamGreen
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2/4/2021 6:54pm
philG wrote:
The 'customer' as defined by your average Vitard wants everything for fuck all. I decree that if the current system changes , you will have 2...
The 'customer' as defined by your average Vitard wants everything for fuck all.

I decree that if the current system changes , you will have 2 choices, take it or leave it. And guess what , they would rather sell less bikes, for more money.

This is why 'Luxury Brands' are considered a luxury, because people will pay for the privilege , just to show you they can, and off the back off that , they will push the prices skyward as a result.

A motorcycle isnt a phone. It needs a buying experience. I would never buy anything like a bike, over the phone, or click and collect, anyone who does , is a twat.
Titan1. wrote:
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in...
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in fact, I'd say that as younger generations become the buyers, they will want less and less of that.

And don't forget, when you say "take it or leave it"...there is still competition in the market...the OEM's still have to compete with one another for each sell...they can't just jack their prices up any more with direct to consumer, than they can now.
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car...
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car to your house and I imagine your Honda dealer will deliver a CRF to you. Same same.
Bye the way...

While we’re taking about Tesla...where’s that damn truck that I put $100 down payment on?
Grinning
2
8tensolutions
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2/4/2021 6:54pm
Titan1. wrote:
Lol...I have a different opinion so I’m stuck in my ways? Okay...that door swings both ways. I don’t care if dealers exist, I’d just like to...
Lol...I have a different opinion so I’m stuck in my ways? Okay...that door swings both ways.

I don’t care if dealers exist, I’d just like to (and think eventually we will be able to) be able to buy my bike online. In a direct to consumer market I see dealers becoming more service centers, than dealerships.

At some level OEMs would have to have a presence in communities to service their products...but the selling part will eventually be direct to consumer, is all I’m saying. Maybe I’m wrong...maybe I’m right. But I’d welcome that change.
skeef wrote:
Well still kind of beating around the bush. I thought you said dealers should go away completely because you order your parts online? Again, what is...
Well still kind of beating around the bush. I thought you said dealers should go away completely because you order your parts online? Again, what is your answer to getting your hardware/software fixed without dealers? You really think the OEM brands are going to support the consumer? How would they even do that? Again, you never even answered my first question assuming you only ride trails. Dealers I work for give out contingency to young racers, give thousands sometimes 10's of thousands of dollars to local tracks and race series, support local police and fire with vehicles. The list goes on. Think about the people that aren't on Vital. Who don't know anything and rely on the dealers to fix and purchase their bikes. Way more of them than people like you. Without dealers NEW people wouldn't get into dirt bikes, powersports in general, then what happens when the market tanks?

We can agree to disagree but dealers aren't going anywhere for now.. pay attention to the dealer you are giving your money too. Make sure they give back to the community.
Titan1. wrote:
My main point is that I'd be happy if I didn't have to deal with a dealership (which I wouldn't if I could buy one online)...if...
My main point is that I'd be happy if I didn't have to deal with a dealership (which I wouldn't if I could buy one online)...if they still exist or not is irrelevant if I never have to deal with them.

If a manufacturer rolls out a direct to consumer sales model (which I do believe at some point they will), then that manufacturer will also have a solution to hardware/software issues, recalls, and warranty issues...no way would they just sell a bike and offer to way to make repairs to it...maybe that's the Tesla "service center" model...maybe its approved techs that work for independent shops...but that's their responsibility to come up with a solution to that problem.

I don't race moto...I haven't in 20 years...I ride/race offroad. So I don't know what my local dealers are doing for contingencies and to local tracks...but I'm pretty confident in guaranteeing you its nothing. The tracks in my area are government owned (state, county, or city) or are completely private. So no dealers around here are giving 10's of thousands of dollars to local tracks. Neither do I ever see their dealership names on any moto fliers, or public events or anything like that. At best, I'm comfortable saying my local dealers MIGHT sponsor a fast local pro or two, but that's pretty much it (but I'm not in the moto scene, and I could be wrong). I do know of a couple of fast local desert guys riding bikes supplied by dealers...but I never see local dealers supporting my desert series or races.

What makes you think that without dealers people wouldn't be getting into the sport? I don't see that connection?

And you're right, dealers aren't going anywhere...FOR NOW. But, as consumer expectations change (and it inevitably will)...and technology evolves that will make it more profitable to avoid the brick and mortar (and it inevitably will)...the business model can, and will, change...I, personally, look forward to and will welcome that change. Others may feel differently...and I'm cool with that.
Titan, the issue with this doesn't solve anything with this thread. If they do go direct to consumer there will still be freight cost and the cost of the bike will be what it is. There won't be negotiation, just like direct to consumer bicycles are now. The difference with bicycles is any bike shop can work on almost any bike so the service/warranty is much less of an issue. I get what you are saying, but would still argue having a relationship with the same dealer will bet you far more savings and help when needed.
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The Shop

Muzzle
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Vernal, UT US
2/4/2021 6:56pm
philG wrote:
The 'customer' as defined by your average Vitard wants everything for fuck all. I decree that if the current system changes , you will have 2...
The 'customer' as defined by your average Vitard wants everything for fuck all.

I decree that if the current system changes , you will have 2 choices, take it or leave it. And guess what , they would rather sell less bikes, for more money.

This is why 'Luxury Brands' are considered a luxury, because people will pay for the privilege , just to show you they can, and off the back off that , they will push the prices skyward as a result.

A motorcycle isnt a phone. It needs a buying experience. I would never buy anything like a bike, over the phone, or click and collect, anyone who does , is a twat.
Titan1. wrote:
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in...
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in fact, I'd say that as younger generations become the buyers, they will want less and less of that.

And don't forget, when you say "take it or leave it"...there is still competition in the market...the OEM's still have to compete with one another for each sell...they can't just jack their prices up any more with direct to consumer, than they can now.
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car...
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car to your house and I imagine your Honda dealer will deliver a CRF to you. Same same.
Not the same. Dealers are independently owned, which means the OEM has limited influence on what the dealer does or charges. This is the reason for the existence of this entire thread.

Tesla has total ownership of what goes on in their service centers and can control how, when and for how much. They can also control their level of customer service.
1
8tensolutions
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2/4/2021 6:59pm
Titan1. wrote:
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in...
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in fact, I'd say that as younger generations become the buyers, they will want less and less of that.

And don't forget, when you say "take it or leave it"...there is still competition in the market...the OEM's still have to compete with one another for each sell...they can't just jack their prices up any more with direct to consumer, than they can now.
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car...
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car to your house and I imagine your Honda dealer will deliver a CRF to you. Same same.
Muzzle wrote:
Not the same. Dealers are independently owned, which means the OEM has limited influence on what the dealer does or charges. This is the reason for...
Not the same. Dealers are independently owned, which means the OEM has limited influence on what the dealer does or charges. This is the reason for the existence of this entire thread.

Tesla has total ownership of what goes on in their service centers and can control how, when and for how much. They can also control their level of customer service.
I understand that. The argument was all about "direct to consumer" and if OEMs do that, there still has to be service centers and the like. The delivery point is not relevant because Tesla also has the service centers.
1
Muzzle
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Vernal, UT US
2/4/2021 7:01pm
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car...
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car to your house and I imagine your Honda dealer will deliver a CRF to you. Same same.
Muzzle wrote:
Not the same. Dealers are independently owned, which means the OEM has limited influence on what the dealer does or charges. This is the reason for...
Not the same. Dealers are independently owned, which means the OEM has limited influence on what the dealer does or charges. This is the reason for the existence of this entire thread.

Tesla has total ownership of what goes on in their service centers and can control how, when and for how much. They can also control their level of customer service.
I understand that. The argument was all about "direct to consumer" and if OEMs do that, there still has to be service centers and the like...
I understand that. The argument was all about "direct to consumer" and if OEMs do that, there still has to be service centers and the like. The delivery point is not relevant because Tesla also has the service centers.
I get you now and agree with what you're saying.
2
APLMAN99
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2/4/2021 7:27pm
Titan1. wrote:
My main point is that I'd be happy if I didn't have to deal with a dealership (which I wouldn't if I could buy one online)...if...
My main point is that I'd be happy if I didn't have to deal with a dealership (which I wouldn't if I could buy one online)...if they still exist or not is irrelevant if I never have to deal with them.

If a manufacturer rolls out a direct to consumer sales model (which I do believe at some point they will), then that manufacturer will also have a solution to hardware/software issues, recalls, and warranty issues...no way would they just sell a bike and offer to way to make repairs to it...maybe that's the Tesla "service center" model...maybe its approved techs that work for independent shops...but that's their responsibility to come up with a solution to that problem.

I don't race moto...I haven't in 20 years...I ride/race offroad. So I don't know what my local dealers are doing for contingencies and to local tracks...but I'm pretty confident in guaranteeing you its nothing. The tracks in my area are government owned (state, county, or city) or are completely private. So no dealers around here are giving 10's of thousands of dollars to local tracks. Neither do I ever see their dealership names on any moto fliers, or public events or anything like that. At best, I'm comfortable saying my local dealers MIGHT sponsor a fast local pro or two, but that's pretty much it (but I'm not in the moto scene, and I could be wrong). I do know of a couple of fast local desert guys riding bikes supplied by dealers...but I never see local dealers supporting my desert series or races.

What makes you think that without dealers people wouldn't be getting into the sport? I don't see that connection?

And you're right, dealers aren't going anywhere...FOR NOW. But, as consumer expectations change (and it inevitably will)...and technology evolves that will make it more profitable to avoid the brick and mortar (and it inevitably will)...the business model can, and will, change...I, personally, look forward to and will welcome that change. Others may feel differently...and I'm cool with that.
I think that almost everything you are saying about dealerships could be said about your industry as well, wouldn’t you agree? There really isn’t a reason to need to go down to your local office, everything can be reasonably accomplished electronically these days.

The last time that I used someone local, they probably spent a grand total of less than 8-10 hours on my file (probably a LOT less than that, truthfully) and they got paid several thousand dollars for their efforts. I don’t think that the comparison of properly assembling a bike for 2-3 hours for $300 is all that far off.

I’m not saying that to try to demean anything about what you do, of course, just pointing out that what people pay for your services aren’t based on true “direct” costs either, but it doesn’t make what you charge any less “legit”.

Personally I don’t really want that industry to go to a model of “cutting out the middleman” either, even if most of the time that COULD probably be done. The times that a local person provides a service that wasn’t expected to be needed makes me glad that we haven’t fully moved to a system where all the lenders strictly have call centers staffed by $10/HR operators simply taking our info and slotting us into the proper product.

And no worries about the earlier thing. We can disagree about the topic at hand completely without being disrespectful, and I do respect you and your opinions.
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Titan1.
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2/4/2021 7:30pm
skeef wrote:
Well still kind of beating around the bush. I thought you said dealers should go away completely because you order your parts online? Again, what is...
Well still kind of beating around the bush. I thought you said dealers should go away completely because you order your parts online? Again, what is your answer to getting your hardware/software fixed without dealers? You really think the OEM brands are going to support the consumer? How would they even do that? Again, you never even answered my first question assuming you only ride trails. Dealers I work for give out contingency to young racers, give thousands sometimes 10's of thousands of dollars to local tracks and race series, support local police and fire with vehicles. The list goes on. Think about the people that aren't on Vital. Who don't know anything and rely on the dealers to fix and purchase their bikes. Way more of them than people like you. Without dealers NEW people wouldn't get into dirt bikes, powersports in general, then what happens when the market tanks?

We can agree to disagree but dealers aren't going anywhere for now.. pay attention to the dealer you are giving your money too. Make sure they give back to the community.
Titan1. wrote:
My main point is that I'd be happy if I didn't have to deal with a dealership (which I wouldn't if I could buy one online)...if...
My main point is that I'd be happy if I didn't have to deal with a dealership (which I wouldn't if I could buy one online)...if they still exist or not is irrelevant if I never have to deal with them.

If a manufacturer rolls out a direct to consumer sales model (which I do believe at some point they will), then that manufacturer will also have a solution to hardware/software issues, recalls, and warranty issues...no way would they just sell a bike and offer to way to make repairs to it...maybe that's the Tesla "service center" model...maybe its approved techs that work for independent shops...but that's their responsibility to come up with a solution to that problem.

I don't race moto...I haven't in 20 years...I ride/race offroad. So I don't know what my local dealers are doing for contingencies and to local tracks...but I'm pretty confident in guaranteeing you its nothing. The tracks in my area are government owned (state, county, or city) or are completely private. So no dealers around here are giving 10's of thousands of dollars to local tracks. Neither do I ever see their dealership names on any moto fliers, or public events or anything like that. At best, I'm comfortable saying my local dealers MIGHT sponsor a fast local pro or two, but that's pretty much it (but I'm not in the moto scene, and I could be wrong). I do know of a couple of fast local desert guys riding bikes supplied by dealers...but I never see local dealers supporting my desert series or races.

What makes you think that without dealers people wouldn't be getting into the sport? I don't see that connection?

And you're right, dealers aren't going anywhere...FOR NOW. But, as consumer expectations change (and it inevitably will)...and technology evolves that will make it more profitable to avoid the brick and mortar (and it inevitably will)...the business model can, and will, change...I, personally, look forward to and will welcome that change. Others may feel differently...and I'm cool with that.
Titan, the issue with this doesn't solve anything with this thread. If they do go direct to consumer there will still be freight cost and the...
Titan, the issue with this doesn't solve anything with this thread. If they do go direct to consumer there will still be freight cost and the cost of the bike will be what it is. There won't be negotiation, just like direct to consumer bicycles are now. The difference with bicycles is any bike shop can work on almost any bike so the service/warranty is much less of an issue. I get what you are saying, but would still argue having a relationship with the same dealer will bet you far more savings and help when needed.
Well, to be clear the issue to this thread was if freight fees are legit...which they are (and I’m okay paying them)...since then it’s evolved into other things.

But direct so consumer solves the issue of me having to drive to a dealer, and worry if they are inflating their price, etc etc.

I’d, personally, would much rather hop online...see VERY CLEARLY what Honda is charging for their 450...compare that to Yamaha and Kawasaki are VERY CLEARLY charging, click a few buttons, purchase the one I want, and have delivered to my door in a week.
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APLMAN99
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2/4/2021 7:55pm
philG wrote:
The 'customer' as defined by your average Vitard wants everything for fuck all. I decree that if the current system changes , you will have 2...
The 'customer' as defined by your average Vitard wants everything for fuck all.

I decree that if the current system changes , you will have 2 choices, take it or leave it. And guess what , they would rather sell less bikes, for more money.

This is why 'Luxury Brands' are considered a luxury, because people will pay for the privilege , just to show you they can, and off the back off that , they will push the prices skyward as a result.

A motorcycle isnt a phone. It needs a buying experience. I would never buy anything like a bike, over the phone, or click and collect, anyone who does , is a twat.
Titan1. wrote:
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in...
Okay...so by your opinion, anyone that buys a Tesla online and has it delivered to their house is "a twat"? Not everyone wants/needs a "buying experience"...in fact, I'd say that as younger generations become the buyers, they will want less and less of that.

And don't forget, when you say "take it or leave it"...there is still competition in the market...the OEM's still have to compete with one another for each sell...they can't just jack their prices up any more with direct to consumer, than they can now.
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car...
Buying a Tesla online just means the Tesla DEALER (that Tesla owns) brings the car to you. Any Chevrolet dealer will happily drive your new car to your house and I imagine your Honda dealer will deliver a CRF to you. Same same.
A “dealer” is a very different thing than a Tesla service center in innumerable ways.
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Titan1.
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2/4/2021 8:05pm
Titan1. wrote:
My main point is that I'd be happy if I didn't have to deal with a dealership (which I wouldn't if I could buy one online)...if...
My main point is that I'd be happy if I didn't have to deal with a dealership (which I wouldn't if I could buy one online)...if they still exist or not is irrelevant if I never have to deal with them.

If a manufacturer rolls out a direct to consumer sales model (which I do believe at some point they will), then that manufacturer will also have a solution to hardware/software issues, recalls, and warranty issues...no way would they just sell a bike and offer to way to make repairs to it...maybe that's the Tesla "service center" model...maybe its approved techs that work for independent shops...but that's their responsibility to come up with a solution to that problem.

I don't race moto...I haven't in 20 years...I ride/race offroad. So I don't know what my local dealers are doing for contingencies and to local tracks...but I'm pretty confident in guaranteeing you its nothing. The tracks in my area are government owned (state, county, or city) or are completely private. So no dealers around here are giving 10's of thousands of dollars to local tracks. Neither do I ever see their dealership names on any moto fliers, or public events or anything like that. At best, I'm comfortable saying my local dealers MIGHT sponsor a fast local pro or two, but that's pretty much it (but I'm not in the moto scene, and I could be wrong). I do know of a couple of fast local desert guys riding bikes supplied by dealers...but I never see local dealers supporting my desert series or races.

What makes you think that without dealers people wouldn't be getting into the sport? I don't see that connection?

And you're right, dealers aren't going anywhere...FOR NOW. But, as consumer expectations change (and it inevitably will)...and technology evolves that will make it more profitable to avoid the brick and mortar (and it inevitably will)...the business model can, and will, change...I, personally, look forward to and will welcome that change. Others may feel differently...and I'm cool with that.
APLMAN99 wrote:
I think that almost everything you are saying about dealerships could be said about your industry as well, wouldn’t you agree? There really isn’t a reason...
I think that almost everything you are saying about dealerships could be said about your industry as well, wouldn’t you agree? There really isn’t a reason to need to go down to your local office, everything can be reasonably accomplished electronically these days.

The last time that I used someone local, they probably spent a grand total of less than 8-10 hours on my file (probably a LOT less than that, truthfully) and they got paid several thousand dollars for their efforts. I don’t think that the comparison of properly assembling a bike for 2-3 hours for $300 is all that far off.

I’m not saying that to try to demean anything about what you do, of course, just pointing out that what people pay for your services aren’t based on true “direct” costs either, but it doesn’t make what you charge any less “legit”.

Personally I don’t really want that industry to go to a model of “cutting out the middleman” either, even if most of the time that COULD probably be done. The times that a local person provides a service that wasn’t expected to be needed makes me glad that we haven’t fully moved to a system where all the lenders strictly have call centers staffed by $10/HR operators simply taking our info and slotting us into the proper product.

And no worries about the earlier thing. We can disagree about the topic at hand completely without being disrespectful, and I do respect you and your opinions.
You’re absolutely right...my job will eventually be replaced with A.I. Tech. I 100% guarantee it. It’s coming. My kids won’t be going into the family business. And when it happens it will put a lot of loan officers out of work...but will probably save consumers a lot of money.

We have tech now that almost doesn’t require me to have any communication with a borrower...almost...because borrowers still need someone to explain the differences between loan programs and answer their questions...truth be told, right now, I don’t ever meet face to face with 99% of my clients...everything is done online via emails and the website.

I see similar tech coming in virtually every industry...cashiers and grocery stores...in fact almost all retail...car salesman...insurance agents...brick and mortar stores will eventually become warehouse space to ship product out of that was purchased online...we won’t be driving to the grocery store (any store, really) in the future, you’re “smart fridge” will know when you are out of milk and eggs and automatically order them for you and they’ll be delivered to your door before you even knew you needed them.

Like it or hate it, it it’s coming...it will put a lot of people out of work...and that’s sad...but it’s the price of progress (it was sad when the furnace put all the chimney sweeps out of business...but I don’t think any of us would go back).
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PTshox
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2/4/2021 8:25pm
crawfishoo wrote:
It is fact, prices would go up. I work for an OEM that has one of the worlds largest dealer networks. Occasionally a customer approaches us...
It is fact, prices would go up. I work for an OEM that has one of the worlds largest dealer networks. Occasionally a customer approaches us and asks to work directly, thinking they will save money by cutting out the dealership. I have yet to see an instance that the end customer or us/OEM benefits from direct sales. I can assure you if there was even a 5% additional margin to be had from cutting out dealers, every OEM would drop them in an instance. The dealership structure saves OEM's money, and in return the customer benefits both on price and customer relations. It is a win win, direct sales from an OEM will not happen anytime soon.
Titan1. wrote:
I will acknowledge that today, direct to consumer isn't something the OEM's would ever consider, and it may not work, today. BUT...technology changes things...it will change...
I will acknowledge that today, direct to consumer isn't something the OEM's would ever consider, and it may not work, today.

BUT...technology changes things...it will change customer expectations, and it changes business models. To say that it will never work, or that OEM's will never consider it, and never implement it is short sighted (unless you've got a crystal ball...in which case, we need to be better friends).

If the consumer demands/expects it, they'll do it...If the technology evolves to the point that is more profitable, they'll do it.

Look how many industries are gradually going to home delivery...amazon...groceries...fast food...mountain bikes...I can buy a Tesla today and have it delivered to my house. More and more people aren't interested in going to a brick and mortar location...they want more and more things online and delivered to their home...I believe that demand will eventually hit the motorsports industry...and when it does, the OEM's will do it...not today, maybe not tomorrow...but eventually it will happen.

Here is Tesla's delivery options:

https://www.tesla.com/support/delivery-options#tesla-direct

They've got a completely touch-less option...I don't have to see or talk with anyone and I can buy a car.

Yes, Tesla isn't a dirt bike...but the technology is there...the consumer demand is coming...and, in my opinion, its just a matter of time before all cars, RV's, and eventually OHV's are purchased this way.

What OEM do you work for?
Tesla still has a dealer network though, they are just all owned by Tesla. They provide service, warranty repair, and offer delivery. Who do you think...
Tesla still has a dealer network though, they are just all owned by Tesla. They provide service, warranty repair, and offer delivery. Who do you think delivers the car to you? They are also insane expensive, so this option is not a good comparison.....and they have $1000 destination charge (freight).

As i said before, the OEM's may choose to offer direct options just like Specialized bikes etc does, but they must have service centers in some variety. We aren't talking about McDonalds or Whole Foods.
So, speaking of Tesla / Elon. Since you brought it up. Elon was the the CEO I believe is Solar City. And, I believe, the largest share holder. Please verify. As I recall Elon sold Solar City the company he ran to... Tesla that Elon runs. All cash deal from what I recall... please verify.

Who here has sold a company they run to another company they run? For cash........


SolarCity Corporation is a subsidiary of Tesla, Inc. that develops and sells solar panels and solar roof tiles. It is headquartered in Fremont, California. After its acquisition in 2016, effectively all products and services are sold through Tesla's website. Wikipedia
2/4/2021 9:09pm
All the gurus that think the dealers should exist i got a q for you, do factory teams order their bikes through dealers? Yes or no? If the dont they know something!

And yes at titan, the dude that works there literally bought his son a 250sxf at dealer cost, cause he is the salesman, he paid 6k cash! Bike was new in crate!
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SPYGUY
Posts
2020
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8/15/2006
Location
US
Fantasy
748th
2/4/2021 10:54pm
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike. This same dealer sold a 19...
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike.

This same dealer sold a 19 450sxf for0 the same price!
Dealer had to dig into his own pocket to sell you this bike, according to most on here.
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1
Indy mxer
Posts
1633
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Linton, IN US
2/5/2021 4:39am Edited Date/Time 2/5/2021 4:40am
All the gurus that think the dealers should exist i got a q for you, do factory teams order their bikes through dealers? Yes or no...
All the gurus that think the dealers should exist i got a q for you, do factory teams order their bikes through dealers? Yes or no? If the dont they know something!

And yes at titan, the dude that works there literally bought his son a 250sxf at dealer cost, cause he is the salesman, he paid 6k cash! Bike was new in crate!
I'll try this one more time. Most delaers don't give a crap about mx bikes. They're low margin and a tiny piece of their business. Most off road/mx riders expect dealers to sell bikes at little or no profit and many want discounts on parts as well.
The dealers make money elsewhere. Those customers come in and shop. Many don't know exactly what they want and are seeking info and advice. The vast majority will not or can't do their own service. So they go to the dealer for service, parts, and accessories, unlike motocross riders who buy a bike then order everything online.

I ride and love mx but when I go buy a new Kawi from my brother, I realize in the grand scheme that sale is really no big deal to him. Some on here seem to think we're way more important than we really are to a dealer.

All that said, there are some riders that do support good dealers. And not all dealers tack on bullshit fees, shop around.
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philG
Posts
9718
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
2/5/2021 5:02am
Everyone talking about Tesla is ignoring the fact that ONLY Tesla has that right currently. They lobbied in order for the right to be direct to...
Everyone talking about Tesla is ignoring the fact that ONLY Tesla has that right currently. They lobbied in order for the right to be direct to consumer as a "Tech" company and not a vehicle manufacturer.

This is why Tesla can sell you a part but make no effort to provide documentation for repair, unlike Ford, Chevy, BMW, or Toyota.

Additionally, Tesla "dealers" are not dealers. They are service centers.
Muzzle wrote:
This is exactly right. I work for an auto OEM and we couldn't sell directly to consumers even if we wanted to. There are many states...
This is exactly right. I work for an auto OEM and we couldn't sell directly to consumers even if we wanted to. There are many states that have franchise laws in place that prevent it, in order to protect their dealerships. I would venture that those same laws would apply to powersports dealers as well.

I believe that eventually OEMs will move to direct sales models and dealerships will turn into service centers. The time it takes to get there will depend on how long dealers can lobby their legislators to keep protections in place.

Nobody likes going into a dealer to buy a car or a bike. Right now it's just a necessary evil.
There are states where you cant get a Tesla because of this.

So in the future we are going to be expected to buy a $10k bike without even seeing or sitting on it .... yeah that will work just fine.

And what happens to the used bike market... who has those and where do they all go.


Dealer Buy in price , and dealer trade in price are nothing like the same, and dealers arent going to buy in a bike , just so you can go get a new one direct . and OEM's arent going to touch them.

So used bikes will be worth nothing , and it will cost more money to race because you are losing more every time you buy.


Great idea, where do we all sign up.
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1
Forty
Posts
2804
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7/27/2009
Location
Saint Paul, MN US
2/5/2021 6:33am
Titan1. wrote:
Or are they just junk fees? Meaning, does the manufacturer really charge the dealer a set fee for every bike they get in the dealer...or is...
Or are they just junk fees?

Meaning, does the manufacturer really charge the dealer a set fee for every bike they get in the dealer...or is that just another fee (like a document prep fee) that dealers charge, because they can?
Yes. They’re legit.
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rmgsxr
Posts
512
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Oak Grove, MO US
2/5/2021 8:03am
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike. This same dealer sold a 19...
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike.

This same dealer sold a 19 450sxf for0 the same price!
SPYGUY wrote:
Dealer had to dig into his own pocket to sell you this bike, according to most on here.
That 350 had been in inventory for a year and they were probably paying interest on it. It probably had a $1000 rebate(or more) and the dealer would have got his $400 registration credit once it was sold. The dealer should have wanted the bike gone and blew it out for no profit. Did he come out of pocket? Probably not but he sure didn't make anything. Year old bikes do have incentives(most of the time) to help blow them out. If that would have been a 2020 bike the dealer did come out of pocket to sell it.
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TeamGreen
Posts
29086
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
2/5/2021 8:32am
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike. This same dealer sold a 19...
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike.

This same dealer sold a 19 450sxf for0 the same price!
SPYGUY wrote:
Dealer had to dig into his own pocket to sell you this bike, according to most on here.
rmgsxr wrote:
That 350 had been in inventory for a year and they were probably paying interest on it. It probably had a $1000 rebate(or more) and the...
That 350 had been in inventory for a year and they were probably paying interest on it. It probably had a $1000 rebate(or more) and the dealer would have got his $400 registration credit once it was sold. The dealer should have wanted the bike gone and blew it out for no profit. Did he come out of pocket? Probably not but he sure didn't make anything. Year old bikes do have incentives(most of the time) to help blow them out. If that would have been a 2020 bike the dealer did come out of pocket to sell it.
RMGSXR is the dealer that sold me my CRF450X for an exorbitant sum...oh, the HORROR! Grinning

All joking aside, as mentioned in his post, my bike...too...had an extra $1000 "rebate" on it and that made the bike a solid deal in a market where the dealer DID NOT NEED to give the the discount (I couldn't find an X out here for less than $10-11K...all '21s and all fetching top dollar...poor, poor me!).

So, here's my point: there are SOME excellent dealers out there that we just might want to give our business to.

Some of these dealers sponsor A LOT of riders. Some of these dealers even go as far as to buy a local track to help promote the sport...for everyone...no matter where they bought there bike. Some of these dealers will help a brother out when he's trying to find some un-obtainable part that most of the industry is treating like "gold".

RMGSXR is one of these dealers. He's sold bikes to plenty of my friends all over the country. Every damn one of them seems to find the need to say."Thanks!".

Y'all need to go find your RMGSXR.
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three9zero
Posts
1437
Joined
9/26/2010
Location
Kamloops B.C CA
2/5/2021 8:57am
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike. This same dealer sold a 19...
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike.

This same dealer sold a 19 450sxf for0 the same price!
SPYGUY wrote:
Dealer had to dig into his own pocket to sell you this bike, according to most on here.
rmgsxr wrote:
That 350 had been in inventory for a year and they were probably paying interest on it. It probably had a $1000 rebate(or more) and the...
That 350 had been in inventory for a year and they were probably paying interest on it. It probably had a $1000 rebate(or more) and the dealer would have got his $400 registration credit once it was sold. The dealer should have wanted the bike gone and blew it out for no profit. Did he come out of pocket? Probably not but he sure didn't make anything. Year old bikes do have incentives(most of the time) to help blow them out. If that would have been a 2020 bike the dealer did come out of pocket to sell it.
100% accurate. Those days of non currents and big rebates/deals are over for this season.
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TheCRKid
Posts
208
Joined
7/8/2008
Location
Bensalem, PA US
2/5/2021 9:02am
The thing about all this that blows my mind is this :
Why try to bead down the very people who live and die by this sport the same as we all do ?
Without the local shops where do you even go to buy a bike and get it fixed if its something you cant figure out how to fix yourself ?
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rmgsxr
Posts
512
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Oak Grove, MO US
2/5/2021 9:10am
Just for grins I will throw this in here. I work at a dealership(yeah I know, one of the bad guys) and one year we received a freight increase from one of the manufactures. Fuel prices were their reason for the increase. The retail price of the bike had not gone up but the actual invoice price for the bike had gone up. Less margin unless you pass that freight increase to the consumer. Granted it was only a $50 increase but on a 50cc bike that's a big hit on the margin.

So I was in a little bit of a pissy mood when a truck line called to schedule a drop off of some bikes. I unloaded on the guy about his raise that he just got with the new raised rates. He turned around and unloaded on me cussing about how he just renegotiated his contract with the manufacture and if he wanted to keep his contract with them he had to lower his rates. So this one manufacture raised the shipping rate to the dealers yet made the trucking company lower his prices. The manufactures are making money on dealers with the prices that they charge us for shipping.

Yeah I know, boo hoo.
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G MONEY
Posts
64
Joined
6/1/2019
Location
D Bay, CA US
2/5/2021 10:10am
I think my cars had a freight fee too lately.
Yes I was checking out the new Vette 20K added mark up if a dealer can only get 2 - 2021 yz 250 for the year they have to mark them up to keep the lights on the old days of getting 20 yz250 and blowing them out are gone for now
1
rmgsxr
Posts
512
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Oak Grove, MO US
2/5/2021 12:03pm
I think my cars had a freight fee too lately.
G MONEY wrote:
Yes I was checking out the new Vette 20K added mark up if a dealer can only get 2 - 2021 yz 250 for the year...
Yes I was checking out the new Vette 20K added mark up if a dealer can only get 2 - 2021 yz 250 for the year they have to mark them up to keep the lights on the old days of getting 20 yz250 and blowing them out are gone for now
Car manufactures have included the destination fee in the window sticker for years now. It is part of the total price. Motorcycle manufactures do not do that. The destination amount is normally listed on their website right below the retail price but not included in it.
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1
zehn
Posts
7266
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Location
Anchorage, AK US
2/5/2021 12:11pm
The level of entitlement in this thread is astounding
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4
APLMAN99
Posts
10108
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Dallas, TX US
2/5/2021 1:32pm
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike. This same dealer sold a 19...
Im just gonna leave this here. Just goes to show how much the dealers are actually making on the bike.

This same dealer sold a 19 450sxf for0 the same price!
Are you going to pretend that this is a “normal” deal or are you going to add the pretty important context to it that shows why the dealer quoted you this price just a few months before this particular bike became a “twice leftover” unit?

Based on your posts in this thread so far, I doubt that you would so I will.

1-As I just said, this 2019 was about to get “lapped” on the sales floor, again. I think that the 21s hit the floor in September or so. The dealer knows that this bike wasn’t appreciating by going another model year down, and holding on to it for just a few more months could have netted him even less than he was able to get a year and a half after this model came out.

2-This is the real kicker, and not disclosing this is borderline falsification in my book. KTM was very active in large rebates to clear out the non-current inventories of their dealers after January of 2020. I may be slightly off a little bit, but I think that this particular model had total rebates of $1,750 on it during the time listed on this sales quote. That’s huge, obviously. The rebates are not listed on the sales quote, and that occurs when the dealer intends to keep the rebates for themselves so that they can list a low sales price. In some states or jurisdictions this may be done to reduce sales tax, but that’s not usually the primary reason.

So this dealer gave you an EFFECTIVE (financially to them) quote of $8,849. That is probably almost even with what their cost (invoice price & freight) would have been, and they were able to finally get their money freed up from a quickly devaluing piece of inventory.

It’s a “good deal”, but it definitely isn’t a case of you getting the dealer to take a substantial loss on a piece of “hot” inventory nor is it a reflection that dealer cost is usually that low on an ordinary, current model year unit.

If KTM hadn’t decided to subsidize that sale to clear up floor space for dealers to buy MY21 units, you would not have received that quote.
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2
Titan1.
Posts
73
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1/14/2021
Location
Lehi, UT US
2/5/2021 4:17pm
I bought a new 2021 YZ450FX today...I shopped around at 4 dealers within about 100 miles of me...two of them had bikes in stock...two of them didn't.

I was quoted OTD prices anywhere from $10,900 to $11,600.

The $10,900 didn't have one...The one I ended up going with was the $11,100 OTD.

The $11,600 dealer was the closest to my house...I asked them if they'd match the $11,100...they wouldn't. So I walked. (Otherwise I didn't haggle over price with the dealers.. I just hoped the one closest to my house would come down so I couldn't have to drive an extra 20 minutes further...but I get why they didn't).

Then I traded in my 19 YZ450FX...I got trade in quotes anywhere from $5800 to $6600.

The dealer I picked was $11,100 OTD...and gave me $6500 on trade.

After the trade my OTD cost was $10,600. (Since the trade reduced the sales tax).

I ended up paying a bunch of fees over invoice...not thrilled about it...but its a sellers market right now...

At the end of the day...I'm excited to get my new bike next week (once they get it out of the warehouse, and put it together)...now if only it would stop snowing.


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1
Titan1.
Posts
73
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1/14/2021
Location
Lehi, UT US
2/5/2021 4:22pm
I happened to stop by a Kawasaki dealer (which is the closest dealer to my house...they just don't sell yamaha)...that dealer is awesome...straight msrp plus tax and title...they were $10,081 OTD on a 2021 KX450X....That was a hard deal to walk away from...but I just like these new yamaha's.
3
APLMAN99
Posts
10108
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Dallas, TX US
2/5/2021 4:53pm
Titan1. wrote:
I bought a new 2021 YZ450FX today...I shopped around at 4 dealers within about 100 miles of me...two of them had bikes in stock...two of them...
I bought a new 2021 YZ450FX today...I shopped around at 4 dealers within about 100 miles of me...two of them had bikes in stock...two of them didn't.

I was quoted OTD prices anywhere from $10,900 to $11,600.

The $10,900 didn't have one...The one I ended up going with was the $11,100 OTD.

The $11,600 dealer was the closest to my house...I asked them if they'd match the $11,100...they wouldn't. So I walked. (Otherwise I didn't haggle over price with the dealers.. I just hoped the one closest to my house would come down so I couldn't have to drive an extra 20 minutes further...but I get why they didn't).

Then I traded in my 19 YZ450FX...I got trade in quotes anywhere from $5800 to $6600.

The dealer I picked was $11,100 OTD...and gave me $6500 on trade.

After the trade my OTD cost was $10,600. (Since the trade reduced the sales tax).

I ended up paying a bunch of fees over invoice...not thrilled about it...but its a sellers market right now...

At the end of the day...I'm excited to get my new bike next week (once they get it out of the warehouse, and put it together)...now if only it would stop snowing.


I didn't quite follow all of the math completely, but sounds like you got the bike at a good price. $300 below MSRP, freight was just about as advertised, and they charged $199 for setup and $199 'doc fees'. Sounds pretty reasonable on the purchase side of it.

The trade in sounds excellent, though. Not sure if you had a lot of add-ons that went in with it but that sounds like a very fair trade-in, and one that they probably are not going to "get rich" selling to the next owner on.

Any deal where you are reasonably happy and you feel good about the amount of dollars you are going to part with is probably a good deal.

Enjoy!
1
Titan1.
Posts
73
Joined
1/14/2021
Location
Lehi, UT US
2/5/2021 9:53pm
Titan1. wrote:
I bought a new 2021 YZ450FX today...I shopped around at 4 dealers within about 100 miles of me...two of them had bikes in stock...two of them...
I bought a new 2021 YZ450FX today...I shopped around at 4 dealers within about 100 miles of me...two of them had bikes in stock...two of them didn't.

I was quoted OTD prices anywhere from $10,900 to $11,600.

The $10,900 didn't have one...The one I ended up going with was the $11,100 OTD.

The $11,600 dealer was the closest to my house...I asked them if they'd match the $11,100...they wouldn't. So I walked. (Otherwise I didn't haggle over price with the dealers.. I just hoped the one closest to my house would come down so I couldn't have to drive an extra 20 minutes further...but I get why they didn't).

Then I traded in my 19 YZ450FX...I got trade in quotes anywhere from $5800 to $6600.

The dealer I picked was $11,100 OTD...and gave me $6500 on trade.

After the trade my OTD cost was $10,600. (Since the trade reduced the sales tax).

I ended up paying a bunch of fees over invoice...not thrilled about it...but its a sellers market right now...

At the end of the day...I'm excited to get my new bike next week (once they get it out of the warehouse, and put it together)...now if only it would stop snowing.


APLMAN99 wrote:
I didn't quite follow all of the math completely, but sounds like you got the bike at a good price. $300 below MSRP, freight was just...
I didn't quite follow all of the math completely, but sounds like you got the bike at a good price. $300 below MSRP, freight was just about as advertised, and they charged $199 for setup and $199 'doc fees'. Sounds pretty reasonable on the purchase side of it.

The trade in sounds excellent, though. Not sure if you had a lot of add-ons that went in with it but that sounds like a very fair trade-in, and one that they probably are not going to "get rich" selling to the next owner on.

Any deal where you are reasonably happy and you feel good about the amount of dollars you are going to part with is probably a good deal.

Enjoy!
On the numbers...I was shopping out the door at all the dealers...without a trade in...just for apples to apples.

Once I got their out the door number...then I started talking trade (I was still considering selling it myself dpending on what a dealer would offer. I didn't haggle on the trade, I just let each dealer give me their number)...I like to trade bikes in because I don't have to deal with selling them, and, I only have to pay sales tax on the difference between the trade value and the purchase price of the new bike...so it reduces the OTD price of the bike a bit.

I figure I could have sold my bike for about $7K - $7500...the dealer gave me $6500...so that saved me $480 in sales tax (I only had to pay 7.3% on $3600, rather than 7.3% on $10,150)...so its the same as selling the bike myself for $6980. So it may have cost me a few hundred bucks...but the time and hassle saved in not having to sell it, made it well worth it to me.

Would I have rather avoided those extra fees and paid $9867.85 OTD, rather than $10,600 out the door...YES! BUT, its a seller market...the dealers know they will sell every single one of them they can get in their door...so they know they don't have to negotiate...I know that, and they know that I know that...I'm the one that chose to buy right now...so it is what it is.

I'm excited...new bike day next week! And new bike days are some of the best days...
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