Are dealer “freight” fees legit?

2/3/2021 9:58pm
I dont understand, the oem mfgs have done what hes explaining before, just they couldnt keep up with the demand, thats when dealers opened.

You guys act like what hes speaking of hasnt ever happened.


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5
Titan1.
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2/3/2021 10:13pm
silver753 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/02/03/476742/s1200_image000000_9.jpg[/img] Here's an actual invoice for a 2021 50SX. Gross value, shipping and "added value margin" are what we are billed. For a grand total of...


Here's an actual invoice for a 2021 50SX. Gross value, shipping and "added value margin" are what we are billed. For a grand total of $4263. The bike at full retail on KTM's website is 4399. After we sell the bike, we get the "added value margin" back as a credit to our parts bill. So technically, we pay 3863 for a bike, and if we sell it at FULL retail, and we only received one, yes ONE of these for the entire 2021 season, and we ordered 4, we make about $500.00 profit before expenses.

And that's if we sell at FULL retail, now we have to pay the tech (maybe an hour to two real time to uncrate, do an accurate PDI-pre delivery inspection, test ride, rejet and tune (yes we jet them), then the sales people do the paperwork and DMV papers, so maybe an hour to two depending on if they are doing financing on the unit also. And before you say "it takes 5 minutes to put the bars and wheel on!", an accurate PDI from a tech that does a good job is a checklist from KTM that is usually about 40 - 70 items you have to check. Torque specs, oil level, air filter, jetting, test ride, spokes, basically put a wrench on every single nut and bolt. And they log in and sign their name and check each box after each item is complete, you can't do one of these in 5 minutes, sorry. So after the "employee" cost gets taken care of, maybe closer to $350.00 profit on a bike we sold at FULL retail.

That's about 8%, give or take. And rent isn't free. Utilities aren't free. Liability insurance isn't free. And a couple of the smaller street bikes, the actual invoice is MORE, yes MORE than full retail on the bike. So if we don't add freight we would lose money by selling at retail. So we are forced to add our "bullshit" fees, because if we just sell at retail, we will lose money. Sounds crazy, but that's the business. I will post the invoice of those smaller street units if I can find one, but yes, on delivery day we pay more than retail on the unit.

Titan1, guys like you are the customers we don't ever want to see in our shop. And like the other guy asked you but you never answered, would like like to pay MSRP plus freight with ZERO chance of negotiation direct through an OEM? Or have a relationship with a dealer who will sell you bikes and parts at a discount, no freight, no set up, and give you some free goggles or a free bike stand, help you fix your bike on a Friday night by taking a part from a bike on the floor, letting you take parts home and pay later, and staying till 9:00 at night to fix your bike, and saying hi to you by first name when you walk in? By the way you talk, most dealers to you are horrible, but with our experience, if you come in acting like an asshole and your a bad person, you get treated that way also. I'm guessing your the type of customer that pissed off every shop you walked into by being unreasonable to work with.

Titan1, your the type of guy who gets his lawn mowed by a 12 year old for $10 then tries to weasel him down to $5.00. And I know, your not gonna change who you are.......
Then we’re even...you’re the kind of shop I’d never do business with.

I can’t handle the shops that try and guilt their customers into paying more like you are here. It’s pathetic. No, you don’t deserve more just because you have bill’s to pay...so does the dealer down the street who doesn’t charge the junk fees and will get me out the door $600 less than you...so they’ll get my business and you can try and guilt the next guy into paying more than they should.
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RichieW13
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2/3/2021 10:23pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Just bought a Honda 450X from [b]Donnell's in Independence, MO[/b]...$7,800. Then I paid $350 to ship it and $40 to insure it (Shipping Insurance). I have...
Just bought a Honda 450X from Donnell's in Independence, MO...$7,800.

Then I paid $350 to ship it and $40 to insure it (Shipping Insurance). I have no F'n idea what "fees" are in the price I paid & I really don't care. But, I do know this...

That dealer is AMAZING. They help me with special parts orders, technical questions (like parts interchangeability between R/RX and X/L) and they're just nice people. Period.

I hope any and all of you have a dealer that's this awesome to help you out, too.
Really? $7,800?

They have a 2019(!) on their website listed for $9,800 (plus destination).

https://www.donnellsmotorcycles.com/inventory/2019-honda-crf450x-indepe…
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40acres
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2/3/2021 11:42pm
mb60 wrote:
Freight fees are about 250 normally. Anything over that dealer is making money.


The Shop

Indy mxer
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Linton, IN US
2/4/2021 4:53am Edited Date/Time 2/4/2021 4:55am
Titan1. wrote:
If the manufacturers business model puts all their dealers out of business, and they have to recall a product, it’s up to the manufacturer to figure...
If the manufacturers business model puts all their dealers out of business, and they have to recall a product, it’s up to the manufacturer to figure out how to get their recall and warrantee issues corrected.

And yes...we’d be forced to pay the MSRP...which is what we pay now...but we wouldn’t have to drive to the dealer, pay all their other fees on top of it. Cutting out the middle man knocks 10%-20% off the MSRP right there which covers most of the freight charge. So we get the bike delivered to our door, for less money.

And I don’t mind paying freight...as long as it’s a legit cost (my OP was a question as to whether they are legit...and it sounds like it is). But if I have to pay it, I’d rather it be directly to my house than to you the dealership.
Indy mxer wrote:
You'd love not having any dealers until you need one.
Titan1. wrote:
Why would I need one? All I use them for now is to buy a bike...and if I could do that online, direct from the manufacturer...
Why would I need one?

All I use them for now is to buy a bike...and if I could do that online, direct from the manufacturer, I wouldn’t even need them for that?
Because it's not about you. Your frame of reference is all about motocross bikes.

MX bikes are not that importatnt to dealers, plain and simple. As many people on here have said, there's very little profit in mx bikes. Plus now more than ever the people that buy them buy most of their parts and accessories online. So the dealer loses that profit as well.

So why do we need dealers? Just like car dealers, most people other than off road guys want to shop. They come in and don't know exactly what they want and need help/advice. Plus the vast majority of people don't do any repair or service themselves. Also warranty work needs to be done. Now throw in the liability of sending units out the door for the customer to assemble. Again, stop thinking just mx!

My brother sells SxS's like crazy and is one of the largest Polaris dealers in Indiana. He also sells Kaw, TM and SSR pit bikes.
He rides mx and so does his grandson and 3 employees. He's even made the comment to me in private that theres very little money in mx bikes.
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1
EngIceDave
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2/4/2021 5:10am
lostboy819 wrote:
I worked for motorcycle dealers for about 25 years and one thing I will tell you is that Motocrosser's are the biggest pain in the ass...
I worked for motorcycle dealers for about 25 years and one thing I will tell you is that Motocrosser's are the biggest pain in the ass for the smallest market, they want things free or at a discount. Then they try to rationalize it by saying they advertise for the dealership and the brand. We would just tell them we use a professional marketing agency. Laugh: We made the least off the MXers but they wanted to most in discounts and the worst is the mini dads who think Jr will be the next Jeremy McGrath. Woohoo
OMG, so much truth here.

Trust me, industry people around the world, in shops or suppliers, are laughing at this going "Yup, nailed it"
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APLMAN99
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2/4/2021 5:34am
Indy mxer wrote:
Because it's not about you. Your frame of reference is all about motocross bikes. MX bikes are not that importatnt to dealers, plain and simple. As...
Because it's not about you. Your frame of reference is all about motocross bikes.

MX bikes are not that importatnt to dealers, plain and simple. As many people on here have said, there's very little profit in mx bikes. Plus now more than ever the people that buy them buy most of their parts and accessories online. So the dealer loses that profit as well.

So why do we need dealers? Just like car dealers, most people other than off road guys want to shop. They come in and don't know exactly what they want and need help/advice. Plus the vast majority of people don't do any repair or service themselves. Also warranty work needs to be done. Now throw in the liability of sending units out the door for the customer to assemble. Again, stop thinking just mx!

My brother sells SxS's like crazy and is one of the largest Polaris dealers in Indiana. He also sells Kaw, TM and SSR pit bikes.
He rides mx and so does his grandson and 3 employees. He's even made the comment to me in private that theres very little money in mx bikes.
Your post is absolutely spot on, except I don't know why he'd make the comment to you "in private'!!!

Cool

I think that for most rational people, what your brother said is pretty much common knowledge and makes perfect sense!
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1
Indy mxer
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Linton, IN US
2/4/2021 5:40am
Indy mxer wrote:
Because it's not about you. Your frame of reference is all about motocross bikes. MX bikes are not that importatnt to dealers, plain and simple. As...
Because it's not about you. Your frame of reference is all about motocross bikes.

MX bikes are not that importatnt to dealers, plain and simple. As many people on here have said, there's very little profit in mx bikes. Plus now more than ever the people that buy them buy most of their parts and accessories online. So the dealer loses that profit as well.

So why do we need dealers? Just like car dealers, most people other than off road guys want to shop. They come in and don't know exactly what they want and need help/advice. Plus the vast majority of people don't do any repair or service themselves. Also warranty work needs to be done. Now throw in the liability of sending units out the door for the customer to assemble. Again, stop thinking just mx!

My brother sells SxS's like crazy and is one of the largest Polaris dealers in Indiana. He also sells Kaw, TM and SSR pit bikes.
He rides mx and so does his grandson and 3 employees. He's even made the comment to me in private that theres very little money in mx bikes.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Your post is absolutely spot on, except I don't know why he'd make the comment to you "in private'!!! B) I think that for most rational...
Your post is absolutely spot on, except I don't know why he'd make the comment to you "in private'!!!

Cool

I think that for most rational people, what your brother said is pretty much common knowledge and makes perfect sense!
lol. Yeah I think he would tell anyone that. This was a long time ago.
Titan1.
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Lehi, UT US
2/4/2021 6:45am
Indy mxer wrote:
You'd love not having any dealers until you need one.
Titan1. wrote:
Why would I need one? All I use them for now is to buy a bike...and if I could do that online, direct from the manufacturer...
Why would I need one?

All I use them for now is to buy a bike...and if I could do that online, direct from the manufacturer, I wouldn’t even need them for that?
Indy mxer wrote:
Because it's not about you. Your frame of reference is all about motocross bikes. MX bikes are not that importatnt to dealers, plain and simple. As...
Because it's not about you. Your frame of reference is all about motocross bikes.

MX bikes are not that importatnt to dealers, plain and simple. As many people on here have said, there's very little profit in mx bikes. Plus now more than ever the people that buy them buy most of their parts and accessories online. So the dealer loses that profit as well.

So why do we need dealers? Just like car dealers, most people other than off road guys want to shop. They come in and don't know exactly what they want and need help/advice. Plus the vast majority of people don't do any repair or service themselves. Also warranty work needs to be done. Now throw in the liability of sending units out the door for the customer to assemble. Again, stop thinking just mx!

My brother sells SxS's like crazy and is one of the largest Polaris dealers in Indiana. He also sells Kaw, TM and SSR pit bikes.
He rides mx and so does his grandson and 3 employees. He's even made the comment to me in private that theres very little money in mx bikes.
You said until I would need one. So my answer to your question was all about me...because that’s what you asked. I don’t use SXS, or quads...I ride dirt bikes. And I only use dealers to buy bikes...so I wouldn’t need one if I could buy online.
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austin_bo
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2/4/2021 6:49am
I work in sales of a different industry, but I understand how much of a pain in the ass customers can be. For that reason, I never haggle over the price of bikes (or much of anything for that matter). I'm fortunate to be within a half hour radius of several reputable dealers, so I'll typically call around to see what the desired bike is selling for... and they're always within a couple hundred bucks of each other. What I can't seem to understand for the life of me is how guys on here get some of the deals they're stating. I bought my last 350 sxf as a leftover for $9,200 OTD. When I see guys getting the same bike for $7k OTD, I can't tell if I'm a sucker, or if it's just the area that I live in (south jersey, close to Philly). I'm all for helping out my fellow sales guy, but goddamn, $2,200 for the same bike feels like a real kick to the sack.
8tensolutions
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Salt Lake City, UT US
2/4/2021 7:12am
austin_bo wrote:
I work in sales of a different industry, but I understand how much of a pain in the ass customers can be. For that reason, I...
I work in sales of a different industry, but I understand how much of a pain in the ass customers can be. For that reason, I never haggle over the price of bikes (or much of anything for that matter). I'm fortunate to be within a half hour radius of several reputable dealers, so I'll typically call around to see what the desired bike is selling for... and they're always within a couple hundred bucks of each other. What I can't seem to understand for the life of me is how guys on here get some of the deals they're stating. I bought my last 350 sxf as a leftover for $9,200 OTD. When I see guys getting the same bike for $7k OTD, I can't tell if I'm a sucker, or if it's just the area that I live in (south jersey, close to Philly). I'm all for helping out my fellow sales guy, but goddamn, $2,200 for the same bike feels like a real kick to the sack.
I think there are some "one off" stories, but there are also guys who want to show they got something others cannot get even though they didn't get it themselves....in other words they are lying. Bikes generally have less than 20% margin to work with unless there are some sort of rebates etc. It's like the guy who tells you he drove his truck for two years and sold it for more than he paid for it.
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yz133rider
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2/4/2021 7:25am
austin_bo wrote:
I work in sales of a different industry, but I understand how much of a pain in the ass customers can be. For that reason, I...
I work in sales of a different industry, but I understand how much of a pain in the ass customers can be. For that reason, I never haggle over the price of bikes (or much of anything for that matter). I'm fortunate to be within a half hour radius of several reputable dealers, so I'll typically call around to see what the desired bike is selling for... and they're always within a couple hundred bucks of each other. What I can't seem to understand for the life of me is how guys on here get some of the deals they're stating. I bought my last 350 sxf as a leftover for $9,200 OTD. When I see guys getting the same bike for $7k OTD, I can't tell if I'm a sucker, or if it's just the area that I live in (south jersey, close to Philly). I'm all for helping out my fellow sales guy, but goddamn, $2,200 for the same bike feels like a real kick to the sack.
Call around further than that. I use cycle trader and call as many dealers as I’m willing to and discuss out the door pricing. I sort by model and price. And start at the lowest and go up. Many list for 6k and then actual price is 9k but some the listed price is actually what they’ll sell for.

To me it’s worth the fee phone calls.
Once you find the good dealers you know where to start next time as well.

I’m in the same area as you. 3-4 hr drive to save 2200 is worth it to me.
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drivrswntd
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Johnston, RI US
2/4/2021 8:02am
silver753 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/02/03/476742/s1200_image000000_9.jpg[/img] Here's an actual invoice for a 2021 50SX. Gross value, shipping and "added value margin" are what we are billed. For a grand total of...


Here's an actual invoice for a 2021 50SX. Gross value, shipping and "added value margin" are what we are billed. For a grand total of $4263. The bike at full retail on KTM's website is 4399. After we sell the bike, we get the "added value margin" back as a credit to our parts bill. So technically, we pay 3863 for a bike, and if we sell it at FULL retail, and we only received one, yes ONE of these for the entire 2021 season, and we ordered 4, we make about $500.00 profit before expenses.

And that's if we sell at FULL retail, now we have to pay the tech (maybe an hour to two real time to uncrate, do an accurate PDI-pre delivery inspection, test ride, rejet and tune (yes we jet them), then the sales people do the paperwork and DMV papers, so maybe an hour to two depending on if they are doing financing on the unit also. And before you say "it takes 5 minutes to put the bars and wheel on!", an accurate PDI from a tech that does a good job is a checklist from KTM that is usually about 40 - 70 items you have to check. Torque specs, oil level, air filter, jetting, test ride, spokes, basically put a wrench on every single nut and bolt. And they log in and sign their name and check each box after each item is complete, you can't do one of these in 5 minutes, sorry. So after the "employee" cost gets taken care of, maybe closer to $350.00 profit on a bike we sold at FULL retail.

That's about 8%, give or take. And rent isn't free. Utilities aren't free. Liability insurance isn't free. And a couple of the smaller street bikes, the actual invoice is MORE, yes MORE than full retail on the bike. So if we don't add freight we would lose money by selling at retail. So we are forced to add our "bullshit" fees, because if we just sell at retail, we will lose money. Sounds crazy, but that's the business. I will post the invoice of those smaller street units if I can find one, but yes, on delivery day we pay more than retail on the unit.

Titan1, guys like you are the customers we don't ever want to see in our shop. And like the other guy asked you but you never answered, would like like to pay MSRP plus freight with ZERO chance of negotiation direct through an OEM? Or have a relationship with a dealer who will sell you bikes and parts at a discount, no freight, no set up, and give you some free goggles or a free bike stand, help you fix your bike on a Friday night by taking a part from a bike on the floor, letting you take parts home and pay later, and staying till 9:00 at night to fix your bike, and saying hi to you by first name when you walk in? By the way you talk, most dealers to you are horrible, but with our experience, if you come in acting like an asshole and your a bad person, you get treated that way also. I'm guessing your the type of customer that pissed off every shop you walked into by being unreasonable to work with.

Titan1, your the type of guy who gets his lawn mowed by a 12 year old for $10 then tries to weasel him down to $5.00. And I know, your not gonna change who you are.......
I have to agree with you 100% here. We started in this sport Fall of 2019 and both my kids started riding. We have developed a great relationship with one of our local dealers. We buy all of our parts through their part department which they take care of us on, I have their service dept do our top ends and clutches for convenience on my end, and we buy our bikes from them. This past spring we had bought a 2020 KTM 50 for less than MSRP with no freight, and $150 for setup.

That was no questions asked we went in one day, I had started thinking about my youngest jumping up into the 50 and they had one in the floor. During the summer when we have issues or something breaks in a race I can bring the bikes in first thing Monday morning and they will get it taken care of for us and fixed by race weekend. We are loyal and good customers. I dont have to haggle, they appreciate our business and we appreciate them.

When KTM announced the 50 factory edition back in August I told them please put me down I'll take the first one you get. Never talked price or anything, bike came in was a little bit under sticker, freight cost cut in half and $149 setup. I have my name on a 65 with them currently and know it will be the same type of deal.

This whole thing is a two way street and while I have a great dealer with a great group of people there I know that is not always the case but for those dealers that do exist if you appreciate them, they appreciate you as well and everyone enjoys and has fun in the journey this sport offers.
6
sandtrack315
Posts
2551
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Location
Philadelphia, PA US
2/4/2021 8:05am
austin_bo wrote:
I work in sales of a different industry, but I understand how much of a pain in the ass customers can be. For that reason, I...
I work in sales of a different industry, but I understand how much of a pain in the ass customers can be. For that reason, I never haggle over the price of bikes (or much of anything for that matter). I'm fortunate to be within a half hour radius of several reputable dealers, so I'll typically call around to see what the desired bike is selling for... and they're always within a couple hundred bucks of each other. What I can't seem to understand for the life of me is how guys on here get some of the deals they're stating. I bought my last 350 sxf as a leftover for $9,200 OTD. When I see guys getting the same bike for $7k OTD, I can't tell if I'm a sucker, or if it's just the area that I live in (south jersey, close to Philly). I'm all for helping out my fellow sales guy, but goddamn, $2,200 for the same bike feels like a real kick to the sack.
I live in Philly, so probably shopping the same dealers as you. OTD (so, 8% Philly sales tax) for a couple hundred under MSRP is the best I have been able to swing locally (pre covid).


It's cute you guys care so much about dealers. I would much rather get my bike (and truck) direct-to-consumer and pay local mechanics to work on it and get my gear and parts through Motosport.com.
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1
2/4/2021 8:21am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Our margins on equipment is not much higher than 20%. In my opinion you can't really compare HVAC equipment to bikes anyways based on the fact...
Our margins on equipment is not much higher than 20%. In my opinion you can't really compare HVAC equipment to bikes anyways based on the fact that HVAC is much more of a need than a luxury like bikes. Do I want my dealer to be around and profitable? Absolutely! Do I think it's bullshit and unacceptable that a charges $1000 for putting on a front fender, front wheel and bars? Yup! At $1000 setup fee, they are making an easy $900 on 2 hours max of work from a guy they probably only pay $15 per hour. Most dealers aren't doing anything to help this sport to be more affordable for the average Joe.
this is such a ridiculous post. Do you think the ONLY expense a dealer has is paying dealer cost for bikes, and paying a few employees $15/hr? As with any business, AT LEAST 50% of gross PROFIT goes to expenses/overhead.
2/4/2021 8:28am
Titan1,

You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE, plus limited support, and absolutely no price adjustments / haggling. OEM's are not well suited for end user interactions, the number of staff and resources an OEM would have to implement to sell directly to end customers would drive cost through the roof. Plus product diversity would decrease. Dealerships are well positioned to work with the end user, and ultimately benefit the OEMs on cost, warranty, headaches, and customer relations. Removing the dealer would not be rainbows and unicorns that you think.

1
Titan1.
Posts
73
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Location
Lehi, UT US
2/4/2021 8:32am
crawfishoo wrote:
Titan1, You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE...
Titan1,

You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE, plus limited support, and absolutely no price adjustments / haggling. OEM's are not well suited for end user interactions, the number of staff and resources an OEM would have to implement to sell directly to end customers would drive cost through the roof. Plus product diversity would decrease. Dealerships are well positioned to work with the end user, and ultimately benefit the OEMs on cost, warranty, headaches, and customer relations. Removing the dealer would not be rainbows and unicorns that you think.

Okay.
2
Falcon
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Menifee, CA US
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2/4/2021 8:37am
The bottom line here is this: dealers are BUSINESSES. Businesses exist to make money, so they are going to charge you every dime that they can. They'd charge $20,000 for a CRF450 if anyone would pay that much. The thing would be loaded with freight, setup, ADM, PDI, extended warranty, insurance, and accessories, and I bet that customer would be the happiest guy in the dealership.
It does cost $ for freight to a dealer, and they do have to set the machines up. It's up to you to decide if you feel you should pay that, however. You can always negotiate or walk and try another dealer.

2/4/2021 8:40am Edited Date/Time 2/4/2021 8:47am
crawfishoo wrote:
Titan1, You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE...
Titan1,

You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE, plus limited support, and absolutely no price adjustments / haggling. OEM's are not well suited for end user interactions, the number of staff and resources an OEM would have to implement to sell directly to end customers would drive cost through the roof. Plus product diversity would decrease. Dealerships are well positioned to work with the end user, and ultimately benefit the OEMs on cost, warranty, headaches, and customer relations. Removing the dealer would not be rainbows and unicorns that you think.

Titan1. wrote:
Okay.
Ha, so you would happily pay $12k for a new bike so you could get it direct from an OEM?? But will complain about buying the exact same bike for $9.4k because you had to pay a freight charge.

That makes about as much sense as wiping before you poop....

Dealerships help keep cost down for the OEM, otherwise the OEM would sell direct to customers. Do you think OEM's and shareholders would be okay with the dealership structure if there was not a distinct financial advantage? If the OEM could make more money without dealers, they would be doing it!!
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1
2/4/2021 8:42am
Don't forget in overhead something dealers seem to need more and more these days, a good video recording system and alarm with all the break ins, and insurance to cover them when these smash and grabbers come and go in a few minutes with some bikes.
1
Titan1.
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73
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Location
Lehi, UT US
2/4/2021 9:15am
crawfishoo wrote:
Titan1, You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE...
Titan1,

You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE, plus limited support, and absolutely no price adjustments / haggling. OEM's are not well suited for end user interactions, the number of staff and resources an OEM would have to implement to sell directly to end customers would drive cost through the roof. Plus product diversity would decrease. Dealerships are well positioned to work with the end user, and ultimately benefit the OEMs on cost, warranty, headaches, and customer relations. Removing the dealer would not be rainbows and unicorns that you think.

Titan1. wrote:
Okay.
crawfishoo wrote:
Ha, so you would happily pay $12k for a new bike so you could get it direct from an OEM?? But will complain about buying the...
Ha, so you would happily pay $12k for a new bike so you could get it direct from an OEM?? But will complain about buying the exact same bike for $9.4k because you had to pay a freight charge.

That makes about as much sense as wiping before you poop....

Dealerships help keep cost down for the OEM, otherwise the OEM would sell direct to customers. Do you think OEM's and shareholders would be okay with the dealership structure if there was not a distinct financial advantage? If the OEM could make more money without dealers, they would be doing it!!
One, its not a fact that prices go up buying direct (you think it will, but its not fact...just like I think it won't, but its not fact).

If they went direct to consumer the oem's still have to compete with other oems...so competition still exists, and that competition will keep prices in check-just like they do now...it's not a coincidence that jap OEM's charge basically the same MSRP for everything, and that won't change buying direct (never mind that they can only charge what people are willing/able to pay), so it's not like Honda can charge $12K for a 450 while Yamaha is still charging $9700...Honda still has to compete with Yamaha..and, it would cut out the 10%-20% profit the dealers have to make to keep the doors open...that overhead loss could be used to pay for shipping costs or other overhead increases for direct to consumer (without increasing the msrp).

The reality is that how we buy OHV's and cars is going to change in the future...just like virtually every industry will change as A.I. and other technology improves and advances its going to change the expectations of consumers across all industries, and all industries will adapt or die.

And the reality is, I don't care about paying a freight charge if its a legit fee...my OP was asking if it was a legit charge, a question...since then the discussion has morphed into complaining about all the other fees and the value (or lack of) provided by dealers...but the OP was a question as to if its a legit fee. If it is, I'm fine paying it-though I do wish they'd just bump the MSRP and include freight in the MSRP, its used car salesmanish to not do that. (I call around and shop OTD price anyway...so I honestly don't care what a dealer calls those fees, I just care about the total number anyway.)
1
TeamGreen
Posts
29071
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
2/4/2021 9:33am
TeamGreen wrote:
Just bought a Honda 450X from [b]Donnell's in Independence, MO[/b]...$7,800. Then I paid $350 to ship it and $40 to insure it (Shipping Insurance). I have...
Just bought a Honda 450X from Donnell's in Independence, MO...$7,800.

Then I paid $350 to ship it and $40 to insure it (Shipping Insurance). I have no F'n idea what "fees" are in the price I paid & I really don't care. But, I do know this...

That dealer is AMAZING. They help me with special parts orders, technical questions (like parts interchangeability between R/RX and X/L) and they're just nice people. Period.

I hope any and all of you have a dealer that's this awesome to help you out, too.
RichieW13 wrote:
Really? $7,800?

They have a 2019(!) on their website listed for $9,800 (plus destination).

https://www.donnellsmotorcycles.com/inventory/2019-honda-crf450x-indepe…
The web-site lists the Honda MSRP...
captmoto
Posts
5153
Joined
4/22/2009
Location
Rancho Cucamonga, CA US
2/4/2021 10:01am
silver753 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/02/03/476742/s1200_image000000_9.jpg[/img] Here's an actual invoice for a 2021 50SX. Gross value, shipping and "added value margin" are what we are billed. For a grand total of...


Here's an actual invoice for a 2021 50SX. Gross value, shipping and "added value margin" are what we are billed. For a grand total of $4263. The bike at full retail on KTM's website is 4399. After we sell the bike, we get the "added value margin" back as a credit to our parts bill. So technically, we pay 3863 for a bike, and if we sell it at FULL retail, and we only received one, yes ONE of these for the entire 2021 season, and we ordered 4, we make about $500.00 profit before expenses.

And that's if we sell at FULL retail, now we have to pay the tech (maybe an hour to two real time to uncrate, do an accurate PDI-pre delivery inspection, test ride, rejet and tune (yes we jet them), then the sales people do the paperwork and DMV papers, so maybe an hour to two depending on if they are doing financing on the unit also. And before you say "it takes 5 minutes to put the bars and wheel on!", an accurate PDI from a tech that does a good job is a checklist from KTM that is usually about 40 - 70 items you have to check. Torque specs, oil level, air filter, jetting, test ride, spokes, basically put a wrench on every single nut and bolt. And they log in and sign their name and check each box after each item is complete, you can't do one of these in 5 minutes, sorry. So after the "employee" cost gets taken care of, maybe closer to $350.00 profit on a bike we sold at FULL retail.

That's about 8%, give or take. And rent isn't free. Utilities aren't free. Liability insurance isn't free. And a couple of the smaller street bikes, the actual invoice is MORE, yes MORE than full retail on the bike. So if we don't add freight we would lose money by selling at retail. So we are forced to add our "bullshit" fees, because if we just sell at retail, we will lose money. Sounds crazy, but that's the business. I will post the invoice of those smaller street units if I can find one, but yes, on delivery day we pay more than retail on the unit.

Titan1, guys like you are the customers we don't ever want to see in our shop. And like the other guy asked you but you never answered, would like like to pay MSRP plus freight with ZERO chance of negotiation direct through an OEM? Or have a relationship with a dealer who will sell you bikes and parts at a discount, no freight, no set up, and give you some free goggles or a free bike stand, help you fix your bike on a Friday night by taking a part from a bike on the floor, letting you take parts home and pay later, and staying till 9:00 at night to fix your bike, and saying hi to you by first name when you walk in? By the way you talk, most dealers to you are horrible, but with our experience, if you come in acting like an asshole and your a bad person, you get treated that way also. I'm guessing your the type of customer that pissed off every shop you walked into by being unreasonable to work with.

Titan1, your the type of guy who gets his lawn mowed by a 12 year old for $10 then tries to weasel him down to $5.00. And I know, your not gonna change who you are.......
Titan1. wrote:
Then we’re even...you’re the kind of shop I’d never do business with. I can’t handle the shops that try and guilt their customers into paying more...
Then we’re even...you’re the kind of shop I’d never do business with.

I can’t handle the shops that try and guilt their customers into paying more like you are here. It’s pathetic. No, you don’t deserve more just because you have bill’s to pay...so does the dealer down the street who doesn’t charge the junk fees and will get me out the door $600 less than you...so they’ll get my business and you can try and guilt the next guy into paying more than they should.
KTM dealer down the street! LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing
Dude you need to take up ping pong or something that has no "junk fees".
1
philG
Posts
9715
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
2/4/2021 10:06am
crawfishoo wrote:
Titan1, You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE...
Titan1,

You think buying direct from an OEM would be great, but I can assure you it would not!! You would see a 20-30% price INCREASE, plus limited support, and absolutely no price adjustments / haggling. OEM's are not well suited for end user interactions, the number of staff and resources an OEM would have to implement to sell directly to end customers would drive cost through the roof. Plus product diversity would decrease. Dealerships are well positioned to work with the end user, and ultimately benefit the OEMs on cost, warranty, headaches, and customer relations. Removing the dealer would not be rainbows and unicorns that you think.

Titan1. wrote:
Okay.
This is bang on, You would be amazed how few people work for the OEM's

It just goes to show what a bunch of fuckwits most people are when it comes to understanding retail.

OEM'S do not, under any circumstances, want to deal with the end user. All they want to do is punt product to dealers, and be done with it.
5
BobPA
Posts
8028
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
2/4/2021 10:13am
philG wrote:
This is bang on, You would be amazed how few people work for the OEM's It just goes to show what a bunch of fuckwits most...
This is bang on, You would be amazed how few people work for the OEM's

It just goes to show what a bunch of fuckwits most people are when it comes to understanding retail.

OEM'S do not, under any circumstances, want to deal with the end user. All they want to do is punt product to dealers, and be done with it.
100% Correct. OEM's never have to worry about being stick with old inventory because the dealer takes all the risk. I don't think we will see a direct to consumer mx bike for a while.
2/4/2021 10:41am
Titan1. wrote:
One, its not a fact that prices go up buying direct (you think it will, but its not fact...just like I think it won't, but its...
One, its not a fact that prices go up buying direct (you think it will, but its not fact...just like I think it won't, but its not fact).

If they went direct to consumer the oem's still have to compete with other oems...so competition still exists, and that competition will keep prices in check-just like they do now...it's not a coincidence that jap OEM's charge basically the same MSRP for everything, and that won't change buying direct (never mind that they can only charge what people are willing/able to pay), so it's not like Honda can charge $12K for a 450 while Yamaha is still charging $9700...Honda still has to compete with Yamaha..and, it would cut out the 10%-20% profit the dealers have to make to keep the doors open...that overhead loss could be used to pay for shipping costs or other overhead increases for direct to consumer (without increasing the msrp).

The reality is that how we buy OHV's and cars is going to change in the future...just like virtually every industry will change as A.I. and other technology improves and advances its going to change the expectations of consumers across all industries, and all industries will adapt or die.

And the reality is, I don't care about paying a freight charge if its a legit fee...my OP was asking if it was a legit charge, a question...since then the discussion has morphed into complaining about all the other fees and the value (or lack of) provided by dealers...but the OP was a question as to if its a legit fee. If it is, I'm fine paying it-though I do wish they'd just bump the MSRP and include freight in the MSRP, its used car salesmanish to not do that. (I call around and shop OTD price anyway...so I honestly don't care what a dealer calls those fees, I just care about the total number anyway.)
It is fact, prices would go up. I work for an OEM that has one of the worlds largest dealer networks. Occasionally a customer approaches us and asks to work directly, thinking they will save money by cutting out the dealership. I have yet to see an instance that the end customer or us/OEM benefits from direct sales. I can assure you if there was even a 5% additional margin to be had from cutting out dealers, every OEM would drop them in an instance. The dealership structure saves OEM's money, and in return the customer benefits both on price and customer relations. It is a win win, direct sales from an OEM will not happen anytime soon.
1
1
C.Worthy
Posts
954
Joined
1/19/2012
Location
CA US
2/4/2021 10:54am
Direct to consumer has worked in a lot of other markets and I don't see why the OEMs can't figure out a way to make it work for dirt bikes. Can it happen? YES. Will it happen? Who knows if it's even worth it for OEMs do to it. Cost savings and higher profit margins being big questions that need to be answered.

Road bike and mountain bike mfgs have figured out the direct to consumer model (Canyon and Polygon being 2 growing names)
Even used car sales have figured out direct to consumer (Carvana) (never have to leave your house to sell or buy a used car)
Diamond dealers (James Allen, Blue Nile...)
Fitness equipment (Rogue, NordicTrack...)


The biggest benefit to these? The consumer pays LESS and gets MORE value than buying brands from brick and mortar places.
4
APLMAN99
Posts
10106
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Dallas, TX US
2/4/2021 11:11am
1- Titan doesn’t need to be attacked with personal jabs.

2- He asked a pretty honest question, accepted the honest answers, and is simply (and pretty respectably overall I think) expressing his thought processes on other issues that have been brought up.

3- I disagree with some of his thoughts on those issues, but that doesn’t invalidate his opinions nor make either he or I “right” or “wrong”.

2
4
mattyhamz2
Posts
10879
Joined
7/6/2015
Location
So Cal, CA US
Fantasy
846th
2/4/2021 11:25am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Our margins on equipment is not much higher than 20%. In my opinion you can't really compare HVAC equipment to bikes anyways based on the fact...
Our margins on equipment is not much higher than 20%. In my opinion you can't really compare HVAC equipment to bikes anyways based on the fact that HVAC is much more of a need than a luxury like bikes. Do I want my dealer to be around and profitable? Absolutely! Do I think it's bullshit and unacceptable that a charges $1000 for putting on a front fender, front wheel and bars? Yup! At $1000 setup fee, they are making an easy $900 on 2 hours max of work from a guy they probably only pay $15 per hour. Most dealers aren't doing anything to help this sport to be more affordable for the average Joe.
this is such a ridiculous post. Do you think the ONLY expense a dealer has is paying dealer cost for bikes, and paying a few employees...
this is such a ridiculous post. Do you think the ONLY expense a dealer has is paying dealer cost for bikes, and paying a few employees $15/hr? As with any business, AT LEAST 50% of gross PROFIT goes to expenses/overhead.
No, I don't think that is the only expense. I will agree to disagree on this entire subject.
1
Falcon
Posts
10117
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA US
Fantasy
856th
2/4/2021 11:36am
philG wrote:
This is bang on, You would be amazed how few people work for the OEM's It just goes to show what a bunch of fuckwits most...
This is bang on, You would be amazed how few people work for the OEM's

It just goes to show what a bunch of fuckwits most people are when it comes to understanding retail.

OEM'S do not, under any circumstances, want to deal with the end user. All they want to do is punt product to dealers, and be done with it.
BobPA wrote:
100% Correct. OEM's never have to worry about being stick with old inventory because the dealer takes all the risk. I don't think we will see...
100% Correct. OEM's never have to worry about being stick with old inventory because the dealer takes all the risk. I don't think we will see a direct to consumer mx bike for a while.
This, although OEMs do, in fact, get stuck with old inventory. That's why there are sometimes 1- and 2-year old, brand-new MX bikes at wholesale auctions. The OEMs liquidate what they cannot sell via wholesale campaigns to dealers.

The OEM is happy to wash its hands of any direct contact with the retail buying public, however. This is why you get your bike serviced at the dealer instead of at the manufacturer, by the way.
1

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