Are Honda's hydraulic clutches AMA legal?

Yeti831
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Yeti831
Edited Date/Time 1/30/2020 12:52pm
Genuine question from the tech geek in me.

I was under the impression that material couldn't be removed from the engine cases under AMA rules.

Been curious about this for a while, surprised it's never been discussed. Especially after the minor ruckus that got brought up about the KTM 250s running WP 52s.

Is there a control exemption I haven't seen?

Honda has been using these for some time, and especially with Kawi going to them in the same fashion I guess I'm just surprised Honda hasn't gone OEM with it yet.
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jeffro503
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jeffro503 1/30/2020 12:18am
1/30/2020 12:18am
I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before selling it to the public.
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kiwifan
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kiwifan 1/30/2020 12:54am
1/30/2020 12:54am
Yeti831 wrote:
Genuine question from the tech geek in me. I was under the impression that material couldn't be removed from the engine cases under AMA rules. Been...
Genuine question from the tech geek in me.

I was under the impression that material couldn't be removed from the engine cases under AMA rules.

Been curious about this for a while, surprised it's never been discussed. Especially after the minor ruckus that got brought up about the KTM 250s running WP 52s.

Is there a control exemption I haven't seen?

Honda has been using these for some time, and especially with Kawi going to them in the same fashion I guess I'm just surprised Honda hasn't gone OEM with it yet.
I dont think they remove material from the cases to fit the hydraulic hardware.... ML????
Muscle-Milk-KTM 1/30/2020 1:05am
1/30/2020 1:05am
jeffro503 wrote:
I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before...
I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before selling it to the public.
They’ve been running hydro clutches for years but they’re still not on the production models.
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Motofinne
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Motofinne 1/30/2020 1:20am
1/30/2020 1:20am
jeffro503 wrote:
I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before...
I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before selling it to the public.
Muscle-Milk-KTM wrote:
They’ve been running hydro clutches for years but they’re still not on the production models.
Yeah i remember that Canard had one back in the day.
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ML512
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ML512 1/30/2020 4:50am
1/30/2020 4:50am
Yeti831 wrote:
Genuine question from the tech geek in me. I was under the impression that material couldn't be removed from the engine cases under AMA rules. Been...
Genuine question from the tech geek in me.

I was under the impression that material couldn't be removed from the engine cases under AMA rules.

Been curious about this for a while, surprised it's never been discussed. Especially after the minor ruckus that got brought up about the KTM 250s running WP 52s.

Is there a control exemption I haven't seen?

Honda has been using these for some time, and especially with Kawi going to them in the same fashion I guess I'm just surprised Honda hasn't gone OEM with it yet.
kiwifan wrote:
I dont think they remove material from the cases to fit the hydraulic hardware.... ML????
Sorta...they're taking a production case and machining/drilling out a small piece for the slave cylinder to operate the clutch rod. Many teams do drill out portions of the cases to run oil coolers, or at least they have over the years at different points.
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Motofinne
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Motofinne 1/30/2020 5:29am
1/30/2020 5:29am
GoonRider93 wrote:
I think as long as they aren't modifying the stock cases it's allowed
Look what ML wrote in the post above. Isn't that modifying the stock cases?
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Last Braaap
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Last Braaap 1/30/2020 5:30am
1/30/2020 5:30am
GoonRider93 wrote:
I think as long as they aren't modifying the stock cases it's allowed
*Team Tedder Racing wants to know your location*
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 1/30/2020 5:42am
1/30/2020 5:42am
Big Red takes the red plate, now after years gets mentioned as a protest...

Factory Bikes with things skirting the rule book, shocking!
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GoonRider93 1/30/2020 5:43am
1/30/2020 5:43am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2020 5:50am
GoonRider93 wrote:
I think as long as they aren't modifying the stock cases it's allowed
Motofinne wrote:
Look what ML wrote in the post above. Isn't that modifying the stock cases?
Nice, didn't see that. Sounds like it, but AFAIK you have to run the stock transmission case, and Honda still have the bits where the cable clutch would go in. So maybe they are allowed to modify them.
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GoonRider93 1/30/2020 5:49am
1/30/2020 5:49am
Close up from 2018, they're still using this in 2020 iffrom the pictures I could find.


Dirty Points 1/30/2020 5:57am
1/30/2020 5:57am
"Material and castings of cylinders, cylinder heads, and crankcases must be the same as an originally approved model of the same manufacturer. Material may be added or removed from these items."
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early
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early 1/30/2020 6:13am
1/30/2020 6:13am
See section f

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Momus
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Momus 1/30/2020 6:30am
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early wrote:
See section f [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/01/30/401159/s1200_Screenshot_20200130_091203.jpg[/img]
See section f

Very, very loose. Basically anything goes for engine development. Gotta be good news.
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BobPA
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BobPA 1/30/2020 6:48am
1/30/2020 6:48am
No turbos or superchargers.....But nothing about nitrous....a little bump of laughing gas certainly wouldn't hurt on the start straight Whistling
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Ingjr1
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Ingjr1 1/30/2020 7:26am
1/30/2020 7:26am
BobPA wrote:
No turbos or superchargers.....But nothing about nitrous....a little bump of laughing gas certainly wouldn't hurt on the start straight Whistling
On the bike or the rider?
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Last Braaap 1/30/2020 8:04am
1/30/2020 8:04am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2020 8:07am
early wrote:
See section f [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/01/30/401159/s1200_Screenshot_20200130_091203.jpg[/img]
See section f

KTM is sending their regards


btw. Is Kawi using their oil coolers in SX? It might be violation of the i), at least in my books.
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early
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early 1/30/2020 8:57am
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Last Braaap wrote:
KTM is sending their regards [embed]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6CtlvmXA-E[/embed] btw. Is Kawi using their oil coolers in SX? It might be violation of the i), at least in my...
KTM is sending their regards


btw. Is Kawi using their oil coolers in SX? It might be violation of the i), at least in my books.
Not sure what you mean with the KTM thing. I had the same thought on the oil cooler. This is a shot from St Louis pitbits, no oil cooler for Eli.

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ns503
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ns503 1/30/2020 9:24am
1/30/2020 9:24am
Well, if they are being raced in AMA races - the answer would be yes, would it not?
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Dirty Points 1/30/2020 9:27am
1/30/2020 9:27am
ns503 wrote:
Well, if they are being raced in AMA races - the answer would be yes, would it not?
LOL. Hell no on that qualifier.
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mxb2 1/30/2020 9:38am
1/30/2020 9:38am
Last Braaap wrote:
KTM is sending their regards [embed]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6CtlvmXA-E[/embed] btw. Is Kawi using their oil coolers in SX? It might be violation of the i), at least in my...
KTM is sending their regards


btw. Is Kawi using their oil coolers in SX? It might be violation of the i), at least in my books.
early wrote:
Not sure what you mean with the KTM thing. I had the same thought on the oil cooler. This is a shot from St Louis pitbits...
Not sure what you mean with the KTM thing. I had the same thought on the oil cooler. This is a shot from St Louis pitbits, no oil cooler for Eli.

Use in outdoors.
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Yeti831
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Yeti831 1/30/2020 10:04am
1/30/2020 10:04am
early wrote:
See section f [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/01/30/401159/s1200_Screenshot_20200130_091203.jpg[/img]
See section f

Well, that answers that topic.

I always thought engine components that must be oem were treated the same as a frame and swingarm, as in you can add material but not remove any. Apparently I was wrong.

Would still love to see a Nissin hydraulic on the Hondas. The unit on the Kawis is amazing imo.
ns503
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ns503 1/30/2020 11:33am
1/30/2020 11:33am
ns503 wrote:
Well, if they are being raced in AMA races - the answer would be yes, would it not?
Dirty Points wrote:
LOL. Hell no on that qualifier.
Why not?

I'm not saying everything on a bike in an AMA race is 100% 'AMA legal' all the time. All kinds of little stuff can be hidden. But a hydro clutch is a fairly major component right out there in the open all the time for everybody to see. And it is being allowed.
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kiwifan
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kiwifan 1/30/2020 12:31pm
1/30/2020 12:31pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Big Red takes the red plate, now after years gets mentioned as a protest...

Factory Bikes with things skirting the rule book, shocking!
Judging by the rules above it seems they are not skirting the rule book
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lostboy819
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lostboy819 1/30/2020 12:47pm
1/30/2020 12:47pm
BobPA wrote:
No turbos or superchargers.....But nothing about nitrous....a little bump of laughing gas certainly wouldn't hurt on the start straight Whistling
Look under the fuel section of the rule book.Cool
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jeffro503
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jeffro503 1/30/2020 1:31pm
1/30/2020 1:31pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before...
I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before selling it to the public.
Muscle-Milk-KTM wrote:
They’ve been running hydro clutches for years but they’re still not on the production models.
Aha....I did not know that.
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Last Braaap 1/30/2020 3:00pm
1/30/2020 3:00pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2020 3:01pm
early wrote:
Not sure what you mean with the KTM thing. I had the same thought on the oil cooler. This is a shot from St Louis pitbits...
Not sure what you mean with the KTM thing. I had the same thought on the oil cooler. This is a shot from St Louis pitbits, no oil cooler for Eli.

1.)
The KTM thing was me poking fun into the GM of Team Tedder Racing saying in some podcast that KTM will bend over backwards to make custom stroke and bore for their engines for factory teams.

That could be total fluke, mishap and poop quality information but it is fun to poke into KTM, since they have won last 5 450 SX titles (including El Hombre on the white KTM)


2.)
The oil cooler seems to be used only for outdoors as some people mentioned which is cool. It makes sense that in very high temperatures of summer it could be beneficial (talking°% of performance not lost - i guess) to cool the oil. But idk if it would have any effect during winter anyway.
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