Are Honda's hydraulic clutches AMA legal?

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1/30/2020 12:13 AM

Genuine question from the tech geek in me.

I was under the impression that material couldn't be removed from the engine cases under AMA rules.

Been curious about this for a while, surprised it's never been discussed. Especially after the minor ruckus that got brought up about the KTM 250s running WP 52s.

Is there a control exemption I haven't seen?

Honda has been using these for some time, and especially with Kawi going to them in the same fashion I guess I'm just surprised Honda hasn't gone OEM with it yet.

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1/30/2020 12:18 AM

I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before selling it to the public.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

1/30/2020 12:54 AM

Yeti831 wrote:

Genuine question from the tech geek in me.

I was under the impression that material couldn't be removed from the engine cases under AMA rules.

Been curious about this for a while, surprised it's never been discussed. Especially after the minor ruckus that got brought up about the KTM 250s running WP 52s.

Is there a control exemption I haven't seen?

Honda has been using these for some time, and especially with Kawi going to them in the same fashion I guess I'm just surprised Honda hasn't gone OEM with it yet.

I dont think they remove material from the cases to fit the hydraulic hardware.... ML????

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

1/30/2020 1:05 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before selling it to the public.

They’ve been running hydro clutches for years but they’re still not on the production models.

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1/30/2020 1:20 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before selling it to the public.

Muscle-Milk-KTM wrote:

They’ve been running hydro clutches for years but they’re still not on the production models.

Yeah i remember that Canard had one back in the day.

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1/30/2020 4:50 AM

Yeti831 wrote:

Genuine question from the tech geek in me.

I was under the impression that material couldn't be removed from the engine cases under AMA rules.

Been curious about this for a while, surprised it's never been discussed. Especially after the minor ruckus that got brought up about the KTM 250s running WP 52s.

Is there a control exemption I haven't seen?

Honda has been using these for some time, and especially with Kawi going to them in the same fashion I guess I'm just surprised Honda hasn't gone OEM with it yet.

kiwifan wrote:

I dont think they remove material from the cases to fit the hydraulic hardware.... ML????

Sorta...they're taking a production case and machining/drilling out a small piece for the slave cylinder to operate the clutch rod. Many teams do drill out portions of the cases to run oil coolers, or at least they have over the years at different points.

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1/30/2020 5:26 AM

I think as long as they aren't modifying the stock cases it's allowed

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If talk is cheap, silence must be expensive because nobody can afford it!

1/30/2020 5:29 AM

GoonRider93 wrote:

I think as long as they aren't modifying the stock cases it's allowed

Look what ML wrote in the post above. Isn't that modifying the stock cases?

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1/30/2020 5:30 AM

GoonRider93 wrote:

I think as long as they aren't modifying the stock cases it's allowed

*Team Tedder Racing wants to know your location*

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- Filthy Euro
- Silly prankster
- Life-long Zook fan
- Rooting for all privateers on this rotating ball of carbon, hydrogen, silicon and poop

1/30/2020 5:42 AM

Big Red takes the red plate, now after years gets mentioned as a protest...

Factory Bikes with things skirting the rule book, shocking!

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

1/30/2020 5:43 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/30/2020 5:50 AM

GoonRider93 wrote:

I think as long as they aren't modifying the stock cases it's allowed

Motofinne wrote:

Look what ML wrote in the post above. Isn't that modifying the stock cases?

Nice, didn't see that. Sounds like it, but AFAIK you have to run the stock transmission case, and Honda still have the bits where the cable clutch would go in. So maybe they are allowed to modify them.

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If talk is cheap, silence must be expensive because nobody can afford it!

1/30/2020 5:49 AM

Close up from 2018, they're still using this in 2020 iffrom the pictures I could find.


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If talk is cheap, silence must be expensive because nobody can afford it!

1/30/2020 5:57 AM

"Material and castings of cylinders, cylinder heads, and crankcases must be the same as an originally approved model of the same manufacturer. Material may be added or removed from these items."

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1/30/2020 6:13 AM

See section f

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1/30/2020 6:30 AM

early wrote:

See section f

Very, very loose. Basically anything goes for engine development. Gotta be good news.

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If the glass is half full it's twice as big as it needs to be.

1/30/2020 6:48 AM

No turbos or superchargers.....But nothing about nitrous....a little bump of laughing gas certainly wouldn't hurt on the start straight whistling

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

1/30/2020 7:26 AM

BobPA wrote:

No turbos or superchargers.....But nothing about nitrous....a little bump of laughing gas certainly wouldn't hurt on the start straight whistling

On the bike or the rider?

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1/30/2020 8:04 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/30/2020 8:07 AM

early wrote:

See section f

KTM is sending their regards



btw. Is Kawi using their oil coolers in SX? It might be violation of the i), at least in my books.
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- Filthy Euro
- Silly prankster
- Life-long Zook fan
- Rooting for all privateers on this rotating ball of carbon, hydrogen, silicon and poop

1/30/2020 8:57 AM

Last Braaap wrote:

KTM is sending their regards



btw. Is Kawi using their oil coolers in SX? It might be violation of the i), at least in my books.

Not sure what you mean with the KTM thing. I had the same thought on the oil cooler. This is a shot from St Louis pitbits, no oil cooler for Eli.

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1/30/2020 9:24 AM

Well, if they are being raced in AMA races - the answer would be yes, would it not?

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HAF

1/30/2020 9:27 AM

ns503 wrote:

Well, if they are being raced in AMA races - the answer would be yes, would it not?

LOL. Hell no on that qualifier.

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1/30/2020 9:38 AM

early wrote:

See section f

Last Braaap wrote:

KTM is sending their regards



btw. Is Kawi using their oil coolers in SX? It might be violation of the i), at least in my books.

early wrote:

Not sure what you mean with the KTM thing. I had the same thought on the oil cooler. This is a shot from St Louis pitbits, no oil cooler for Eli.

Use in outdoors.

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1/30/2020 10:04 AM

early wrote:

See section f

Well, that answers that topic.

I always thought engine components that must be oem were treated the same as a frame and swingarm, as in you can add material but not remove any. Apparently I was wrong.

Would still love to see a Nissin hydraulic on the Hondas. The unit on the Kawis is amazing imo.

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1/30/2020 11:33 AM

ns503 wrote:

Well, if they are being raced in AMA races - the answer would be yes, would it not?

Dirty Points wrote:

LOL. Hell no on that qualifier.

Why not?

I'm not saying everything on a bike in an AMA race is 100% 'AMA legal' all the time. All kinds of little stuff can be hidden. But a hydro clutch is a fairly major component right out there in the open all the time for everybody to see. And it is being allowed.

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HAF

1/30/2020 12:31 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Big Red takes the red plate, now after years gets mentioned as a protest...

Factory Bikes with things skirting the rule book, shocking!

Judging by the rules above it seems they are not skirting the rule book

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

1/30/2020 12:47 PM

BobPA wrote:

No turbos or superchargers.....But nothing about nitrous....a little bump of laughing gas certainly wouldn't hurt on the start straight whistling

Look under the fuel section of the rule book.cool

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Ed Johnson

1/30/2020 12:52 PM

Reed had one on his YZF back in 2008.

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1/30/2020 1:31 PM

jeffro503 wrote:

I think there is still a 1 year R&D rule in affect? It's how factories test stuff out a year or two in advance , before selling it to the public.

Muscle-Milk-KTM wrote:

They’ve been running hydro clutches for years but they’re still not on the production models.

Aha....I did not know that.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

1/30/2020 3:00 PM
Edited Date/Time: 1/30/2020 3:01 PM

early wrote:

Not sure what you mean with the KTM thing. I had the same thought on the oil cooler. This is a shot from St Louis pitbits, no oil cooler for Eli.

1.)
The KTM thing was me poking fun into the GM of Team Tedder Racing saying in some podcast that KTM will bend over backwards to make custom stroke and bore for their engines for factory teams.

That could be total fluke, mishap and poop quality information but it is fun to poke into KTM, since they have won last 5 450 SX titles (including El Hombre on the white KTM)


2.)
The oil cooler seems to be used only for outdoors as some people mentioned which is cool. It makes sense that in very high temperatures of summer it could be beneficial (talking°% of performance not lost - i guess) to cool the oil. But idk if it would have any effect during winter anyway.

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- Filthy Euro
- Silly prankster
- Life-long Zook fan
- Rooting for all privateers on this rotating ball of carbon, hydrogen, silicon and poop