Another GP thread - Villopoto

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10/7/2018 7:10 PM
Edited Date/Time: 10/7/2018 7:15 PM

For those who were unaware of the intensity and sheer speed of the GP vs US mx, maybe you’ve forgotten.

Just a few short years ago, one of our fastest riders ever(arguably) here in the US, went overseas and by no means was dominant. It’s easy to get caught up in your own scene and forget that the world is an enormous place. The USA is a great place, but not the only great place.

This isn’t football (American) or baseball. Unfortunately we are not the gold standard for MX globally. That’s ok. Getting humbled is a good experience.

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10/7/2018 7:14 PM

I get what youre trying to say but the american in me cant be humbled. Were still the GOAT at MXON, GOAT at supercross, and RV won pitbike of nations for us saturday.

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10/7/2018 7:16 PM

kb228 wrote:

I get what youre trying to say but the american in me cant be humbled. Were still the GOAT at MXON, GOAT at supercross, and RV won pitbike of nations for us saturday.

That’s some funny shit right there.

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10/7/2018 7:18 PM

kb228 wrote:

I get what youre trying to say but the american in me cant be humbled. Were still the GOAT at MXON, GOAT at supercross, and RV won pitbike of nations for us saturday.

stillwelding wrote:

That’s some funny shit right there.

I guess some people don’t let reality and actual outcomes dictate their perspective at all.

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10/7/2018 7:22 PM

To be clear, and some people elsewhere seem to have faulty memories - RV was not dominant but he was certainly very competitive. 7th at Qatar though I recall he nearly DNSd one race, he won in Thailand, and fourth in Argentina. Then he was injured and that's that.

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10/7/2018 7:23 PM

mwr wrote:

To be clear, and some people elsewhere seem to have faulty memories - RV was not dominant but he was certainly very competitive. 7th at Qatar though I recall he nearly DNSd one race, he won in Thailand, and fourth in Argentina. Then he was injured and that's that.

Exactly my point. He was very very dominant in the US for a decade. Of course he had ups and downs, but he certainly did not have the same results against the Europeans as he did in America.

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10/7/2018 7:25 PM

Y’all do realize he won in MXGP, right?

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10/7/2018 7:26 PM

Yeah I’ve had a pretty strong opinion that we’ve not had the best riders for maybe a year or two, but today definitely put the nail in the coffin.

All I know is that when (not if) USA wins again, it’ll be even better and sweeter.

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10/7/2018 7:27 PM

mwr wrote:

To be clear, and some people elsewhere seem to have faulty memories - RV was not dominant but he was certainly very competitive. 7th at Qatar though I recall he nearly DNSd one race, he won in Thailand, and fourth in Argentina. Then he was injured and that's that.

observeroffacts wrote:

Exactly my point. He was very very dominant in the US for a decade. Of course he had ups and downs, but he certainly did not have the same results against the Europeans as he did in America.

He won the second ever GP he enetrted after not doing MX after nearly a year and half. And everyone bitched up a storm because they put in this puss rythem section that lasted 100 yards at the most and a lot of the GP field was crying.

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10/7/2018 7:29 PM

He also was on his way out and wanted to retire and was forced to race another year...so his mindset, training, effort, motivation was all shot...

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10/7/2018 7:34 PM

you forget that rv didnt want to be there in the first place. dont think for a second he gave the same effort over there as he did here.

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10/7/2018 7:41 PM

RV's few MXGPs are fucking ridiculous to use as a yardstick. He was coming back off another major knee injury, not enthused about even riding and still was doing more than fine. It wasn't round 15 and he was out of it, it was round 4 or 5 and he'd won a GP and was fighting for podiums.

And to be fair, it's not like every one of these MXdN "losses" for the USA have been just that. There has been some shit luck in amongst it too, and sometimes they've simply been outclassed.

Red Budd was meant to be home court advantage but the moto-gods said otherwise. Euros ride trash conditions on more compliant bikes and they're fucking good.. doesn't meant the American riders are shit.

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Cheers, Crush
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10/7/2018 7:44 PM

Crush wrote:

RV's few MXGPs are fucking ridiculous to use as a yardstick. He was coming back off another major knee injury, not enthused about even riding and still was doing more than fine. It wasn't round 15 and he was out of it, it was round 4 or 5 and he'd won a GP and was fighting for podiums.

And to be fair, it's not like every one of these MXdN "losses" for the USA have been just that. There has been some shit luck in amongst it too, and sometimes they've simply been outclassed.

Red Budd was meant to be home court advantage but the moto-gods said otherwise. Euros ride trash conditions on more compliant bikes and they're fucking good.. doesn't meant the American riders are shit.

I didn’t say American riders are shit. I said that the world is a big place and we are not the gold standard.

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10/7/2018 7:53 PM

Crush wrote:

RV's few MXGPs are fucking ridiculous to use as a yardstick. He was coming back off another major knee injury, not enthused about even riding and still was doing more than fine. It wasn't round 15 and he was out of it, it was round 4 or 5 and he'd won a GP and was fighting for podiums.

And to be fair, it's not like every one of these MXdN "losses" for the USA have been just that. There has been some shit luck in amongst it too, and sometimes they've simply been outclassed.

Red Budd was meant to be home court advantage but the moto-gods said otherwise. Euros ride trash conditions on more compliant bikes and they're fucking good.. doesn't meant the American riders are shit.

observeroffacts wrote:

I didn’t say American riders are shit. I said that the world is a big place and we are not the gold standard.

Nor did I say you did... but people keep pointing too that as if RV had just walked off the track in 2013 and went to the GPs and was struggling.

They're just not the same dude, let alone the same bike, desire, fitness etc.

It'd be like saying Kenny got beaten today but because he was smoking everyone in 2016 Glen is now the best rider in the world. Irrelevant.

You're right though, the GPs are a better estimation of what it is to go fast in truly horrid conditions... They have a lot of wheels over a track in a weekend, shit conditions, varied surfaces and their riders only ride MX. It's not that surprising when you look at it like that, but again, USA has had a lot of shit luck these last 7 or so years... just like they had some good luck preceding that.

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Cheers, Crush
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10/7/2018 7:55 PM

Park Boys wrote:

He won the second ever GP he enetrted after not doing MX after nearly a year and half. And everyone bitched up a storm because they put in this puss rythem section that lasted 100 yards at the most and a lot of the GP field was crying.

I think the heat in Thailand played a bigger role in Villopoto winning that race than any section of the track.

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10/7/2018 7:58 PM

mwr wrote:

To be clear, and some people elsewhere seem to have faulty memories - RV was not dominant but he was certainly very competitive. 7th at Qatar though I recall he nearly DNSd one race, he won in Thailand, and fourth in Argentina. Then he was injured and that's that.

observeroffacts wrote:

Exactly my point. He was very very dominant in the US for a decade. Of course he had ups and downs, but he certainly did not have the same results against the Europeans as he did in America.

You have to account for the learning curve for a little while too. You could send herlings over here for four supercross races and he also wouldn’t be dominant before getting a bit of experience and figuring things out

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10/7/2018 8:30 PM
Edited Date/Time: 10/7/2018 8:32 PM

What puzzles me is how quickly this trend has come on. 2011 Villopoto and Dungey were pretty dominant at the Des Nations. In 2015 Tomac dominated these same guys minus Herlings, in both USGP's. Cooper Webb tracks Herlings down from nowhere in Charlotte to win. Barcia was very competitive in Lommel as a 250 rider on a 450. Same with Webb in France and the USGP at Glenn Helen in 15'. This isn't a generational thing that's been building for years....It's like our guys have, for whatever reason, turned into mental midgets.

Now they can't do anything right, and today it spiraled out of control. We might as well plan on not sending a team next year to the sand of Assen....unless RC, Bubba and RV are coming out of retirement.

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10/7/2018 8:39 PM

JB 19 wrote:

What puzzles me is how quickly this trend has come on. 2011 Villopoto and Dungey were pretty dominant at the Des Nations. In 2015 Tomac dominated these same guys minus Herlings, in both USGP's. Cooper Webb tracks Herlings down from nowhere in Charlotte to win. Barcia was very competitive in Lommel as a 250 rider on a 450. Same with Webb in France and the USGP at Glenn Helen in 15'. This isn't a generational thing that's been building for years....It's like our guys have, for whatever reason, turned into mental midgets.

Now they can't do anything right, and today it spiraled out of control. We might as well plan on not sending a team next year to the sand of Assen....unless RC, Bubba and RV are coming out of retirement.

It's a one day event for all the marbles.

Anderson got landed on and instant DNS and they almost got it done. Martin broke a foot and they weren't far off. Tomac went OTB and they weren't far off.

In 2011 if Pourcel doesn't get a flat they probably don't win.

Shit happens.

Euros do ride in shit more often tho!

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Cheers, Crush
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10/7/2018 8:43 PM

JB 19 wrote:

What puzzles me is how quickly this trend has come on. 2011 Villopoto and Dungey were pretty dominant at the Des Nations. In 2015 Tomac dominated these same guys minus Herlings, in both USGP's. Cooper Webb tracks Herlings down from nowhere in Charlotte to win. Barcia was very competitive in Lommel as a 250 rider on a 450. Same with Webb in France and the USGP at Glenn Helen in 15'. This isn't a generational thing that's been building for years....It's like our guys have, for whatever reason, turned into mental midgets.

Now they can't do anything right, and today it spiraled out of control. We might as well plan on not sending a team next year to the sand of Assen....unless RC, Bubba and RV are coming out of retirement.

I also believe the effect you are talking about was exaggerated because of the mud, and also because Villopoto and Dungey were extremely hard to crack mentally. Maybe the team thought they were already beat too, that would explain the lack of intensity.

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10/7/2018 8:55 PM

observeroffacts wrote:

For those who were unaware of the intensity and sheer speed of the GP vs US mx, maybe you’ve forgotten.

Just a few short years ago, one of our fastest riders ever(arguably) here in the US, went overseas and by no means was dominant. It’s easy to get caught up in your own scene and forget that the world is an enormous place. The USA is a great place, but not the only great place.

This isn’t football (American) or baseball. Unfortunately we are not the gold standard for MX globally. That’s ok. Getting humbled is a good experience.

That is comical. For one RV wanted to retire and hadnt ridden since after his surgury after the sx season. Next there was a huge problem with the bikes and language barrier and communication with mechanics. That's really a pretty shity comparison I don't know how someone can even bring that up he wasn't even in shape he was basically racing himself back in shape

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10/7/2018 10:24 PM

mwr wrote:

To be clear, and some people elsewhere seem to have faulty memories - RV was not dominant but he was certainly very competitive. 7th at Qatar though I recall he nearly DNSd one race, he won in Thailand, and fourth in Argentina. Then he was injured and that's that.

observeroffacts wrote:

Exactly my point. He was very very dominant in the US for a decade. Of course he had ups and downs, but he certainly did not have the same results against the Europeans as he did in America.

I think his MXDN results say different. Lets be real,the RV that went over and raced the GP's was not the the same RV that dominated here in his prime. He said it himself, he hardly trained and prepared and showed up completely disenchanted with racing at that point in his career.

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10/7/2018 10:51 PM

bsharkey wrote:

That is comical. For one RV wanted to retire and hadnt ridden since after his surgury after the sx season. Next there was a huge problem with the bikes and language barrier and communication with mechanics. That's really a pretty shity comparison I don't know how someone can even bring that up he wasn't even in shape he was basically racing himself back in shape

Well I think a few people here are letting their relative bias' shroud what really happened..
Yes he was coming off knee surgery but he had done a heap of riding before the season. Remember the videos of him riding at the Californian tracks and the people saying he shouldn't be training on the smooth tracks?
Then he went over to Europe and there were plenty of videos of that coming out.. Remember all the people saying that the tracks in Europe are all junk?
You know the 'he looks comfortable' joke that gets thrown around here it's from the videos of RV training before the season because it was the consensus around here that he looked great, very fast and 'comfortable'..
Not sure there was a huge problem but I remember the team had their ideas what would work and RV had his..
He wasn't racing himself back into shape but he may have been ring rusty which is why they were telling him to do pre season races.. which he didn't..

His moto results were 9-8 1-3 4-4 4 which are great but prob not what the US fans that are ignorant to the level of the GPs were expecting

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why am I reading this? ..... Oh christ, now I'm posting...... shiiiiiiiit!!

10/7/2018 10:58 PM

People forget that the USA won some mxon s since the 90s through consistency e.g. 06 09 even 11 not so much they were mad quicker . Biggest difference is the euro team s can now field 3 strong riders .unlike years past were they .might have one great rider and have no chance at wining . The US will always have 3 good riders . But this idea that it's only the last few years the gp s are the same speed as the ama nationals is crap. Imo everts would have beat RV RD JS7 in championships . Maybe not RC. But he would have been alot closer than anyone else .

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10/7/2018 10:59 PM

observeroffacts wrote:

For those who were unaware of the intensity and sheer speed of the GP vs US mx, maybe you’ve forgotten.

Just a few short years ago, one of our fastest riders ever(arguably) here in the US, went overseas and by no means was dominant. It’s easy to get caught up in your own scene and forget that the world is an enormous place. The USA is a great place, but not the only great place.

This isn’t football (American) or baseball. Unfortunately we are not the gold standard for MX globally. That’s ok. Getting humbled is a good experience.

bsharkey wrote:

That is comical. For one RV wanted to retire and hadnt ridden since after his surgury after the sx season. Next there was a huge problem with the bikes and language barrier and communication with mechanics. That's really a pretty shity comparison I don't know how someone can even bring that up he wasn't even in shape he was basically racing himself back in shape

jemcee wrote:

Well I think a few people here are letting their relative bias' shroud what really happened..
Yes he was coming off knee surgery but he had done a heap of riding before the season. Remember the videos of him riding at the Californian tracks and the people saying he shouldn't be training on the smooth tracks?
Then he went over to Europe and there were plenty of videos of that coming out.. Remember all the people saying that the tracks in Europe are all junk?
You know the 'he looks comfortable' joke that gets thrown around here it's from the videos of RV training before the season because it was the consensus around here that he looked great, very fast and 'comfortable'..
Not sure there was a huge problem but I remember the team had their ideas what would work and RV had his..
He wasn't racing himself back into shape but he may have been ring rusty which is why they were telling him to do pre season races.. which he didn't..

His moto results were 9-8 1-3 4-4 4 which are great but prob not what the US fans that are ignorant to the level of the GPs were expecting

Thing is... those results aren't that far away from what you've seen him do in America coming back from injury or not at his best. 2011 comes to mind, he took a while to get going after being sick. It was 4 rounds in.

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Cheers, Crush
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10/7/2018 11:07 PM

Crush wrote:

Thing is... those results aren't that far away from what you've seen him do in America coming back from injury or not at his best. 2011 comes to mind, he took a while to get going after being sick. It was 4 rounds in.

Yeah I agree, I was trying to just post the facts to stop the inflation either way haha
I just think it was a shock for some to see him not 'dominate' cause they were under the impression he was going to..
I actually thought he was gonna win early but then start to 'struggle' more when they got back to Europe..

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why am I reading this? ..... Oh christ, now I'm posting...... shiiiiiiiit!!

10/7/2018 11:08 PM

jemcee wrote:

Yeah I agree, I was trying to just post the facts to stop the inflation either way haha
I just think it was a shock for some to see him not 'dominate' cause they were under the impression he was going to..
I actually thought he was gonna win early but then start to 'struggle' more when they got back to Europe..

Yeah that's it... It's weird, like feast or famine. Reality was he was doing just fine and we saw fuck all of a sample size.

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Cheers, Crush
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10/7/2018 11:10 PM

Crush wrote:

Yeah that's it... It's weird, like feast or famine. Reality was he was doing just fine and we saw fuck all of a sample size.

It was such a let down haha I was ready for an epic year.. Then fucken Larry loop out turned up and ruined it haha

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why am I reading this? ..... Oh christ, now I'm posting...... shiiiiiiiit!!

10/7/2018 11:28 PM

jemcee wrote:

It was such a let down haha I was ready for an epic year.. Then fucken Larry loop out turned up and ruined it haha

Yep... hahaha. Ironic too since he'd probably spent more time riding the back wheel than any pro in history!

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Cheers, Crush
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10/7/2018 11:42 PM

Crush wrote:

Yep... hahaha. Ironic too since he'd probably spent more time riding the back wheel than any pro in history!

Hahaha that's so true

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why am I reading this? ..... Oh christ, now I'm posting...... shiiiiiiiit!!

10/7/2018 11:58 PM

The point was not that Vilopoto was bad or good or injuried or fresh. The point was that he had to work hard and nothing was guaranteed anymore. Now, you are in your nice place playing with your bike, making a million the easy way, and you change that for being always dirtt, wet, surronded by crazy people that don´t respect your status.
He was good but too old to get down to business and work hard. And the sam eapplies now. Talent is there, but the AMA boys will not keep a month with Herlings rutine.As long as the money flows, why should they.

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