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I wish I could say that I was, but money is tight and I'm way too out of shape for that right now. Plus, last year Sebastian Tortelli won the class I would be riding, +25 A/B/C. I can't justify all the money to know I'm racing a bunch of ex pros
Has very little to do with the 50.00 and more to do with giving the AMA member his/her fair shake if they feel they shouldn't be advanced. The persons chosen for this appeal task do not know the riders they are making a decision on, it's based on results, and opinions like stated above.
Most if not all will call and discuss the process with the appealing rider to get their idea on why, how, and what the circumstances are.
This isn't a "job" that anyone on the appeal boards take lightly. I have been on many over the years just not lately so I haven't been involved for a couple years.
When advancement was done locally (state or districts) it wasn't uniform it wasn't even close to "fair", as many riders simply didn't have to advance. Fast forward to late 90's and early 2000's, we crafted a process which took the "good" points from many districts who like our district had used an RPV system and it worked.
The process isn't fool proof, and isn't perfect no argument there. My point.
What out there is better? Actually on a national level there isn't anything and never has been.
anyway. I would vote for "no C'' class at the nationals. in a heart beat. But look at the sign ups, it's the biggest classes across the country so you know damn well that won't fly.
We have lessened the impact on advancement at the local or "small" events, as to not advance riders to quickly as we all know it had a devastating affect on local racing. But that in it's self didn't much fix anything as today's rider practices, races the "big" races and doesn't ride other races in fear of advancement and the whole idea that local racing is a devalued process.
Since this process (my opinion here) won't be "fixed" anytime soon or at all. Lets just face it, C class isn't the "beginner" or new rider class anymore. Hasn't been for a very long time, specially since we started crowning C class national Champions.
Being involved with this since the early 90's maybe we just kick the can one more time, Have three tiers of racing A/B/C and start offering Beginner. 10 years ago i would have said nope and I am not in love with the idea, but tracks i see doing this are getting big turn outs and those kids are truly beginners.
Today's hurdles with 10k motorcycles and 4 lap motos jumping 120' jumps are much more a concern of mine in this sport then sand bagging that has been going on since classes were invented.
I have asked the same questions brought up in this post, and if i had the time i would look it up as well hence why i wanted to see the spreadsheet.
by the way I don't think the appeal process has a lot of "action". It sure doesn't see 300-400 appeals a year, hell i don't think it's 100.
the other point. this National Advancement Process has has 100% amateur racing compliance for a very long time, like maybe 10 years? So. No one is being "missed" because of non compliance by the AMA Amateur Race promoters and Clubs.
think about that for a second. ALL AMA MX results are being included. That was the hardest part of this program but has been consistently been done year in and year out. I realize a great many of the active posters here love to bash and blame AMA for much of this. Do you think for a second that Mx sports wants to handle this? or any other "promoter"???? Hell no, they get to be the knight in shining armor and the AMA gets to be stomped on, it's part of the process as well.
I don't get back here much, and actually forgot that I had posted what i did. Jrminquad pm me that spreadsheet. I would like to see it.
wardy
https://www.thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/184629-f350-winner-of-attack-m…
The Shop
As far as LL. I like the idea that if you raced the C class this year and qualified for LL, you get bumped. No appeals, just go race with the faster guys. For that matter, you could do that for every graded(A, B, C) class. I don't know about anywhere else, but D16 has a very skinny A class. By bumping everyone from the lower class up each year, the higher classes would fill out a bit more.
As for the age based classes. If you have EVER held a pro card, you don't get to race an age class. LL should just have an ex-pro class and stuff them all together there. It's quite ridiculous that I could show up at LL and have to race Jeff Emig, Jeremy McGrath, Damon Bradshaw, etc. Hell, I wouldn't see them after the start straight. There is no way I'd every get to their speed.
Anyway, LL and Mammoth have definitely contributed to the downfall of 'fair' competition in motocross. The bad part, the AMA is allowing it and doesn't seem to care.
I sure wish guys would be way more informed on how the amateur side of AMA works.
Dave from D16 was instrumental in getting the advancement process ready to implement. I know since i worked with him on it.
A class numbers are what they are because of two things.
1. local racing can't pay those guys enough to take the risks they have to take.
2. they are at time in their personal lives where daddy isn't paying anymore, they have to become self sufficient adults and can't afford the sport and be solvent.
The problems today are not "17" riders but maybe 2-3 or three that make the whole process look bad it happens to often.
There is a rule in place that riders that appeal "back" in classification can be "re looked at". I do believe there are some riders being "re-evaluated" as we discuss this stuff on here. Watch how big of brew ha ha hits this place if a rider gets moved BAck to B. Then once again AMA will suck.
AMA will never come on post boards and air the laundry, promoters, riders, etc will, AMA will not. So it's easy to bag on those people who have dedicate themselves to the sport.
My opinion I always looked at how it affects to sport first, then the individual. Maybe not the correct thinking, but it has to be fair. and that word can be a bitch.
One thing to note...when someone is suspected of sandbagging, or riding illegally in a class (yes, even the local A guy that drops to B is illegal per AMA rules) a written protest must be filed with the AMA referee, or his/her designee. Such a protest must be supported by documentation, and there is no provision anywhere in the rulebook which would allow for an individual so protested to continue to compete in the lower class.
The new off road guy, he is pretty aggressive and it doesn't surprise me. I do believe that there had been 1 maybe even 2 mx guys re-looked at. I know for a fact a few are right now.
I get frustrated with many "main guys" in here as they bash AMA for just about everything. There are a ton of volunteers like myself that have spent not years but decades trying to make our sport of racing and riding a good one.
There has been many gafs along the way, and some i have been very vocal about. I get a kick how some people attain "god like" status and much of the reason for it is because the "hard stuff" is being done by AmA while others just sit back and point "handle it".
anyway. The system isn't perfect by any means, and it can be scammed. Much less and much harder to do the tap dance around it then in the past.
little history lesson. in 1993-94 Roger Ansil explained to me how to make a "rider performance advancement" process. We here in d17 instituted somewhere around that time. By 1999-2000 AMA was full on working with many districts but mainly the ones from the midwest like 14, 16, 17 etc. We got it passed like in 03?04? but found the biggest problem was getting results. Enter in Kip Bigelow who busted all of our butts and got particiapation to 70% then 90% and now the 100% results submitted for many years.
Just that feat alone was huge. But you listen to these "grand stand dudes" in here it all sucks and has no value etc etc etc.
All i can say is many of the people who I personally met working on this issue spent hundreds of hours on it and it does work. 30-40 thousand riders (guessing not sure on that number) and a shit load of events, and AMA has recorded and process 100% of all the results for 5-8 years in a row. So maybe because of all that I am biased.
lastly.
With riding camps, and full time coaches, and all the other stuff going on today, how quickly can a rider improve? How are those riders compared to the ones from 20 years ago who raced, and tried to make it? that kind of thing is a huge different atmosphere.
First it is not that a rider is non competitive in the lower class, it is that he is non competitive in the higher class.
So, lets look at this riders C class results vs. your son's results from 2016 (the year in which he was advanced).
Adam Johnson raced 250C 7 times in 2016 and had an RPV of 15.42 (108 points/7 races) meaning he scored an average of 15.42 points per race. He had one race with a big gate where he scored 35 points. Since the sample size of 7 races is pretty small, this one race moved him from a 12.16 to a 15.42. Adam also had no races for the 7 months between March 11th to October 16th due to injuries and other assorted issues. Those were the things that were taken into account in his appeal.
So lets look at TR:
TR scored 90 points on 5 races which would have been an RPV of 18 if he would have had the required 6 races. So had TR raced one more time in 2016, even finishing last he would have had a 15 RPV and would have been advanced to B. Had you filed an appeal, the committee would have looked at the limited number of races he had, and the one race where he scored 35 points, which skewed his average, and probably given him the benefit of the doubt.
So Adam Johnson and your son were basically the same rider in 2016 with your son actually having better average finishes, but Adam having 2 more races. I don't know either of the kids, but if I had to guess, the difference from 2016 to 2017 is geographical. He lives in Florida and rode all winter, and you live in Ohio where you lose 4 months every year.
The advancement appeal committees are certainly not perfect but they also don't just take the money and rubber stamp each appeal. The following steps are taken with each rider:
1. Complete review of the riders results history in AMA and non AMA competition when available. Not just the results, but the level of competition at the races. Evidence of sandbagging (tanking races at the end of the year) is looked for and if found usually leads to an immediate denial.
2. Discussion with the local district officials on each rider appealing. Many times this is the best place to get info on the rider and how the local district will be affected if his/her appeal is approved.
3. Discussion with the rider and / or the riders parents. What caused the gaps in racing results. What injuries did the rider have? What personal issues did the rider or family go through?
4. Calling any references, though not a lot of weight is typically given to these. What rider in their right mind is going to provide a reference that isn't firmly on their side.
A committee of three decides each appeal and one of the committee members is responsible for the 4 steps above for each rider.
Not perfect, but a lot more goes into it than you think.
Thanks for quoting the "A is A, B is B, C is C" article for this thread to get started, granted it was written specifically about Off-Road as MX doesn't have an AA class...
Here's the link for those that haven't read it - http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Home/News-Story/a-is-a-b-is-b-c-is-c
It doesn't talk about the appeal process as it was specifically about riding in the same class Nationally as you do Locally (for Off-Road), but it sounds like I should start another "Appeal Specific" one...
Pit Row
Seems simpler to understand, and if you really want that championship finish you can't sandbag.
there is apoints chart in the rule book and it's based on rider counts.
the more riders, the bigger the points awarded. It's always been that way.
In your set up, you win 8 then "practice" the rest of the year or ride a different class to avoid being moved.
but anyway our system is similar.
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/DesktopModules/EasyDNNNews/Document…
page 11.
My feeling is that it's not worth losing sleep over. Dont sweat Lorettas. I'm sure other sports are not without their vices but amateur MX is pretty ridiculous. With the ever rising costs, the injuries, cheating, broken contracts, broken families, poor officiating, a poor transition from mini bikes to big bikes, and the staggeringly low success rate, it just doesn't add up. Don't sweat Lorettas. When I hear about the drama and people taking out mortgages to fund "the dream" only to get burned...that's just Darwinism to me. That's the small fish that didn't have sense enough to know better getting eaten up by the big fish. Don't sweat Loretta's. Ride/race locally for fun. Use the Lorettas money for juniors college fund and make sure he goes! Don't sweat Lorettas. MX innocence is lost. Pick-up truck days are over. Chicken Licks raceway is gone. Been replaced by mtf, gpf, clubmx, sob, etc. Elementary school kids have trainers and some are doing backflips. You gotta look at the big picture and draw some conclusions. Don't sweat Lorettas. Especially the c-class.
and big dreams. 95% of the time it doesn't work out. Like you said, ride for fun and plan for college!
been saying that for a long time. but hell no one listens to old people so it's all good.
Post a reply to: An Informal Look at AMA C Class (updated page 3)