Ama Amateurs, does it need a refresh?

12/28/2020 2:39pm
I just watched the Levi Kitchen interview on Swapmoto & he seems like a cool talented kid. However the strange thing is he’s coming 20 in February I believe, & he wont race sx this year then he will go race some Amateur races then maybe if all works out he races nationals.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Tom Vialle is 20 & already a world Champion. Prado is a 2 time world champ & racing MX1 & is only 5-6 weeks older than kitchen.

Factory Husky just signed 14 year old Maxime Grau to race EMX 250.

I listened to the Mitch Payton Whiskey Throttle show & he didnt seem like a big fan of the Amateur scene. He said it didnt make sense to call them titles when its on one day at one track.

Why do riders stay in Amateurs so long? Is there a lot of money to be made in titles at Lorettas? Is there big TV audiences for fans & sponsors?

would it be better to have 6 rounds of nationals with a under 18 125 support class. 25min plus 2 laps. Then 6 rounds of under 21 250 support class. That way top teams can scout new talent & see them on real tracks in real conditions & bring some talent on.

Motocross is such a short career i dont see why guys are being held in Amateurs by teams. Why not send kitchen to Europe for the year to race EMX250? Im sure that would boost Yamaha exposure. If the schedule didnt conflict he could go back to US for amateur races.
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yz133rider
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12/28/2020 3:17pm
It absolutely needs an overhaul. Kids go from b class to the pros. B class.

C class is insanely fast. How does any of this make sense in any way?
ElliotB16
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12/28/2020 3:23pm
Some of the top B riders could easily qualify for a pro national. With him being 20, some riders are just late bloomers.
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ElliotB16
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12/28/2020 3:33pm
ElliotB16 wrote:
Some of the top B riders could easily qualify for a pro national. With him being 20, some riders are just late bloomers.
An A/B amateur race at the nationals would be more beneficial also. 15-20 minute motos. Maybe first motos on Saturday and 2nd on Sunday.

Current amateur races are screwed up. $100 per class, spend a whole week there and only 4-5 lap motos.
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kb228
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12/28/2020 4:04pm
I would think a supermini and 250 pro am class to tag along with some nationals. A 125 class limits mfgs significantly.
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The Shop

yak651
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12/28/2020 4:09pm
The refresh is "amateurs" getting six figure expense accounts to go racing. Take away that, only allow bikes/mods as sponsor tools for amateurs and you won't see kids staying at practice facilities all year and only racing 3-4 times a year. Spend that amateur support money to get pros without factory rides from race to race
12/28/2020 6:24pm
Kids parents are getting six figures to haul them to the races from manufactures. Like said above they live at training facilities and race very specific races. No benefit to them going to a local sunday race.

I would like to see a A/B class support race at the nationals. No series, but have it at all races, open to anyone.
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Donkey Kong
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12/28/2020 7:28pm
He's young as can be, he'll be just fine.
Leeham
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12/28/2020 7:40pm
I would like to see a stock/limited class as a national series. Much cheaper for the non-factory guys to win and have a chance.
Also Id like to think I am a decent C class rider, but I have no hope to race national C class. I would get destroyed lol. Its hard to enforce class levels. Anyone can ride at 90% and race the slower class. The only class you cant TRULY sandbag is the Pro/A class. It is what it is. Im not going to go anywhere in this sport so Im not too wound up in it. I will say its pathetic to see an obvious C Class rider race the D/Beginner Class and just beat everyone by at least 30 sec.
I do think if I was a parent with a kid racing hoping to get somewhere, I would be irritated by some of the things that do go on
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numbers
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12/28/2020 7:43pm
James Stewart turned 16 the week of his first SX race. C class top 5 should be moved up and so on.
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motoxxx599
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12/28/2020 7:43pm
The amount of money the promoters make from these amateur races will make it really hard for these changes to be made. I feel bad for these kids who train all year and then go to LL and have a bad week. A 6 race series would be ideal to showcase the talents of these up and coming A and B riders but unfortunately the promotor of LL is also promotor of the Nationals so I don't see them rushing to make a change.
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robotsfrom
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12/28/2020 7:54pm
I think the over haul should be the AMA amateur nationals adopting a format similar to what happens in Europe where EMX runs 65-250 and kids get a lot of gate drops and learn how to run a series properly.

You can see it semi regularly in America. A phenom comes out of the amateurs with a ton of titles, but cant stay healthy for a full season when he goes pro. I believe running a season is a skill that's not being taught.

As far as the Europeans being so young on 250s, I believe that has to do with the 23 year age limit on the MX2 class. So factories are rushing kids up to give them time to develop and have several seasons in the MX2 class before they're forced to MX1.
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EngIceDave
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12/28/2020 8:07pm
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes"

If it's good now locally and you go messing with it at the National level, what will it do at that local level?
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EngIceDave
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12/28/2020 8:08pm
motoxxx599 wrote:
The amount of money the promoters make from these amateur races will make it really hard for these changes to be made. I feel bad for...
The amount of money the promoters make from these amateur races will make it really hard for these changes to be made. I feel bad for these kids who train all year and then go to LL and have a bad week. A 6 race series would be ideal to showcase the talents of these up and coming A and B riders but unfortunately the promotor of LL is also promotor of the Nationals so I don't see them rushing to make a change.
Those big races pay the bills when the regular races don't.
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UpTiTe
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12/28/2020 8:34pm
Yes, it needs an overhaul in every way. Euro riders are and will continue to own us and our series because our amateur system sucks.
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BobPA
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12/28/2020 8:37pm
motoxxx599 wrote:
The amount of money the promoters make from these amateur races will make it really hard for these changes to be made. I feel bad for...
The amount of money the promoters make from these amateur races will make it really hard for these changes to be made. I feel bad for these kids who train all year and then go to LL and have a bad week. A 6 race series would be ideal to showcase the talents of these up and coming A and B riders but unfortunately the promotor of LL is also promotor of the Nationals so I don't see them rushing to make a change.
This. The hilariously large pile of money Loretta's brings in will make it nearly impossible to create a revamp.
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12/28/2020 8:40pm
NO 250'S in the 450 class. No supermini's in the 125 class. 2 classes maximum.
Riding 4 classes only adds to the event program which only adds to time away from work which regular working people don't have. This in turn only helps the rich or homeschooled hence they get noticed by the bad recruitment fraternity. The blue collar family is driven away not only for costs but who wants to take 3-7 days from work so Lil Johnny can race maybe 3 to 6 races over a week.
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1
12/28/2020 10:07pm
Levi dominated the mini o,s. It is odd that he,s not racing sx. There is a kid in Wisconsin, that is moving up fast. Super mini next yr 125, a lot of top 5 , almost won the last 125 all star race at iron man, this yr 250b at ll. Right after moved to 250 a, 450 a. Top 5 in 450a at mini o,s in 2020. He wanted to do Canadian Nationals, I don,t think he did tho. I like watching the riders getting 2nd to 11th at the amateur nationals. They usually do better at the nationals, in the long run.
Original 44
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12/28/2020 10:23pm
UpTiTe wrote:
Yes, it needs an overhaul in every way. Euro riders are and will continue to own us and our series because our amateur system sucks.
Spot on!!!!
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Motofinne
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12/28/2020 10:48pm Edited Date/Time 12/29/2020 7:00am
Don't forget that all the EMX kids also race their own and other countries national/local races. They race, race, race. And the races aren't sprint races, they're 15-30 min + 2 laps.
Talisker
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12/28/2020 11:04pm
Yes, i think it needs a overhaul. Maybe EMX style or maybe not. It needs a refresh or restructure.
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12/29/2020 1:13am
kb228 wrote:
I would think a supermini and 250 pro am class to tag along with some nationals. A 125 class limits mfgs significantly.
It doesn’t limit the support over in Europe, at some rounds they’ll be over a 100 riders trying to qualify.

It’s seems to me the manufacturers dictate more in the states than they do in the rest of the world.
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yak651
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12/29/2020 2:36am
EngIceDave wrote:
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes" If...
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes"

If it's good now locally and you go messing with it at the National level, what will it do at that local level?
It might be "fair" at the local level but it could be improved. The fast kids don't show up to a local race unless it's a qualifier or regional. If they do show up they run one moto and then "dnf" the second to make sure they don't get the almighty advancement points. How can the local fast guy gauge his/her speed when the "real" racers never show up at the track? Wouldn't the local race get better turn outs if handful of fast kids in the state are racing each weekend instead of living at the practice track? Ask the local fast kids why they don't race, they all say it's no fun racing against the same 3-5 people each weekend, well if they show up and bring 2-3 of their practice track buddies from the southern part of the state, the same talent level guy in the northern, eastern, western part of the state do this and all of sudden all the local classes have 20-30 entries like the "old days". Sorry got off tangent about "amateur" racing..
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Bearuno
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12/29/2020 2:44am
I just watched the Levi Kitchen interview on Swapmoto & he seems like a cool talented kid. However the strange thing is he’s coming 20 in...
I just watched the Levi Kitchen interview on Swapmoto & he seems like a cool talented kid. However the strange thing is he’s coming 20 in February I believe, & he wont race sx this year then he will go race some Amateur races then maybe if all works out he races nationals.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Tom Vialle is 20 & already a world Champion. Prado is a 2 time world champ & racing MX1 & is only 5-6 weeks older than kitchen.

Factory Husky just signed 14 year old Maxime Grau to race EMX 250.

I listened to the Mitch Payton Whiskey Throttle show & he didnt seem like a big fan of the Amateur scene. He said it didnt make sense to call them titles when its on one day at one track.

Why do riders stay in Amateurs so long? Is there a lot of money to be made in titles at Lorettas? Is there big TV audiences for fans & sponsors?

would it be better to have 6 rounds of nationals with a under 18 125 support class. 25min plus 2 laps. Then 6 rounds of under 21 250 support class. That way top teams can scout new talent & see them on real tracks in real conditions & bring some talent on.

Motocross is such a short career i dont see why guys are being held in Amateurs by teams. Why not send kitchen to Europe for the year to race EMX250? Im sure that would boost Yamaha exposure. If the schedule didnt conflict he could go back to US for amateur races.
Well, for the Euros, they've got the '23 and You're Out' rule.

That there is a big reason for being a 'Pro', PDQ............

Thankfully, Zacho had the opportunity to go back to the USA, when he , by his own admission, was Not ready for MX1.

Going back to the US, gave him as many years as he needed, to stay in 250s - I think until he was something like 28 - to get a few 250 titles, and then get onto 450s. To finally get a US Outdoors 450 title this year. Fantastic! Thank goodness the USA doesn't have such a rule as the GPs do.

Everyone is different, some need / want time to follow their own course, and Not be pushed into a class they may have no chance of a ride / no chance of doing well (at that time, or Any time), and, just lose their racing career through stupid age out rules. Some - well, a shedload - just get passed over for those that employers regard as a better 'bet'.

But, to this Levi youngster - he may be making money with an Amateur career. He may have no current opportunities for a Pro ride. Heck, he may not want a Pro career. I never feel like I, or others, should delve into riders motivations / decisions / circumstances.

Your "would it be better to"?

Well, that's down to DC and Co, as he / they run Outdoors, Junior and Senior. He's the Man that can make / enact a Plan.

Levi going to EMX and returning for the US Amateur races - someone has to finance that - Who?
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12/29/2020 2:50am
kb228 wrote:
I would think a supermini and 250 pro am class to tag along with some nationals. A 125 class limits mfgs significantly.
It doesn’t limit the support over in Europe, at some rounds they’ll be over a 100 riders trying to qualify. It’s seems to me the manufacturers...
It doesn’t limit the support over in Europe, at some rounds they’ll be over a 100 riders trying to qualify.

It’s seems to me the manufacturers dictate more in the states than they do in the rest of the world.
Thats a good point. When it gets to national level i dont see a point in having A, B & C classes for youth. Put them all together at 6 rounds of nationals & let the cream rise to the top. But maybe that would mess up Lorettas if a C rider is leading the 6 round 250 youth series
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12/29/2020 2:59am
Bearuno wrote:
Well, for the Euros, they've got the '23 and You're Out' rule. That there is a big reason for being a 'Pro', [i]PDQ...........[/i]. Thankfully, Zacho had...
Well, for the Euros, they've got the '23 and You're Out' rule.

That there is a big reason for being a 'Pro', PDQ............

Thankfully, Zacho had the opportunity to go back to the USA, when he , by his own admission, was Not ready for MX1.

Going back to the US, gave him as many years as he needed, to stay in 250s - I think until he was something like 28 - to get a few 250 titles, and then get onto 450s. To finally get a US Outdoors 450 title this year. Fantastic! Thank goodness the USA doesn't have such a rule as the GPs do.

Everyone is different, some need / want time to follow their own course, and Not be pushed into a class they may have no chance of a ride / no chance of doing well (at that time, or Any time), and, just lose their racing career through stupid age out rules. Some - well, a shedload - just get passed over for those that employers regard as a better 'bet'.

But, to this Levi youngster - he may be making money with an Amateur career. He may have no current opportunities for a Pro ride. Heck, he may not want a Pro career. I never feel like I, or others, should delve into riders motivations / decisions / circumstances.

Your "would it be better to"?

Well, that's down to DC and Co, as he / they run Outdoors, Junior and Senior. He's the Man that can make / enact a Plan.

Levi going to EMX and returning for the US Amateur races - someone has to finance that - Who?
Im sure a local European Yamaha team would pick him up & pay his salary while he was in Europe.
Do i think a year in Europe would help him to be a better rider rather than riding a practice facility & a few amateur events? Yes i do. Riding lommel & slick hard pack in france & Italy & being pushed by 10 guys the same speed every week would definitely help. Just look at how it helped Osborne as you said.

Max Voland wanted this year in EMX 125 & rode the first one untill Corona hurt. His dad obviously felt a year in Europe was a good option then return to US for big Amateur races.
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yz133rider
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12/29/2020 6:47am
EngIceDave wrote:
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes" If...
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes"

If it's good now locally and you go messing with it at the National level, what will it do at that local level?
I don’t think it’s fair at the local level at all. The current system encourages and in fact nearly requires you to sand bag.

If you do the stand up thing and move up from c after you win let’s say a race or two which is a fair move to do.

You’re now in b class (where you realistically belong) and now let’s say you wanted to try to qualify for lorettas.

You essentially have zero chance in b. Because as mentioned you’ll be against people like Levi kitchen in b class who are ready for the pros.

So you’re options are sand bag and try to qualify in c. Or move up to b like you should and then have zero chance to compete nationally etc.

C class at lorettas will run local a class pace, if not surely local b easily.

How does this make sense?

Classifying yourself is also insane. And it’s so easy to dodge getting moved up. Heck even locally people have won the series and are still allowed to stay in the same class the following year because they didn’t exactly dominate.
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dcg141
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12/29/2020 7:02am
Not sure what the answer is but it for sure needs a reboot. So many players and interests involved that won't be easy. If Mitch thinks it needs a overhaul that's about as an informed opinion as you could get.
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EngIceDave
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12/29/2020 8:00am
EngIceDave wrote:
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes" If...
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes"

If it's good now locally and you go messing with it at the National level, what will it do at that local level?
yak651 wrote:
It might be "fair" at the local level but it could be improved. The fast kids don't show up to a local race unless it's a...
It might be "fair" at the local level but it could be improved. The fast kids don't show up to a local race unless it's a qualifier or regional. If they do show up they run one moto and then "dnf" the second to make sure they don't get the almighty advancement points. How can the local fast guy gauge his/her speed when the "real" racers never show up at the track? Wouldn't the local race get better turn outs if handful of fast kids in the state are racing each weekend instead of living at the practice track? Ask the local fast kids why they don't race, they all say it's no fun racing against the same 3-5 people each weekend, well if they show up and bring 2-3 of their practice track buddies from the southern part of the state, the same talent level guy in the northern, eastern, western part of the state do this and all of sudden all the local classes have 20-30 entries like the "old days". Sorry got off tangent about "amateur" racing..
There's your problem.

If Jimmy Twotits keeps a low profile and only rides and trains, how do you rank them? What class do they race? They don't have the points to advance and if they only race nationals or outlaw events, how do you change that?

Force them to race?

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motoxxx599
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12/29/2020 8:02am
I grew up racing every chance I could get. Growing up in Houston we would race Saturday night and then go home and sleep for 4 hours and then go race Sunday. There was a time when one local track was racing Wednesday nights and we would race three times a week. I can't imagine racing 3 times a year. How do you get any race experience doing that? If you fall over in a corner there is a chance your whole year was a waste.
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luke11
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12/29/2020 9:04am
I think all that needs to happen is you abolish the classes? Makes no sense to me you don’t have it in Europe.
You race locally in your class ie 65 or 85 and if your good enough you qualify for nationals.
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