Alta receives FIM Homologation for North America 250 class

Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 9/29/2017 10:22am
9/29/2017 10:22am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2017 10:54am
There is no reason why a rear wheel Dyno couldn't help decide this. Magazines do it every month so it can't be that expensive or time-consuming. At the very minimum Alta should be allowed to run in the 450 class if the AMA is too lazy or cheap to do a proper evaluation. They could easily pay a 3rd party to it, surprised a magazine hasn't already done it.

The manufacturer board members and powers that be know that the Alta will win every holeshot and they are scared that they might win the whole thing. You would probably see a top 50 rider become top 15. A top 15 rider like Mookie could go top 5-10 I would guess. No wonder they won't let them in. If I was with Feld I would demand it and sponsor the Stewart's on them. Boom!
Erek_Kudla
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Erek_Kudla 9/29/2017 11:00am
9/29/2017 11:00am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2017 11:01am
Alta doesn't want to ride the 450 class. they want to ride the 250 class.

The Dyno doesn't determine what class you're in so it is not an accurate comparison.
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Johnny Depp 9/29/2017 5:46pm
9/29/2017 5:46pm Edited Date/Time 9/29/2017 5:50pm
Erek_Kudla wrote:
Alta doesn't want to ride the 450 class. they want to ride the 250 class. The Dyno doesn't determine what class you're in so it is...
Alta doesn't want to ride the 450 class. they want to ride the 250 class.

The Dyno doesn't determine what class you're in so it is not an accurate comparison.
I'm not sure if you are speaking officially as an AMA Manager or as an author at Dirt Bike test with a ton of experience? Just wanted to let others know that once again a industry VIP has weighted in at Vital!
I can't imagine anyone would even attempt to enter an Alta in the Hare and Hounds or West Hare Scramble series since they won't go long enough, so the rules for that series don't matter at this point.

Alta may want to if asked run the 450's in SX, especially if they have no other option since the AMA makes the rules.

Since an electric bike will never have any CC's, an alternate testing method will need to be used, and I haven't heard of anything more practical than a dyno. It might not be perfect, but neither is what was done in the past.
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Erek_Kudla 9/29/2017 6:53pm
9/29/2017 6:53pm Edited Date/Time 9/29/2017 6:54pm
Ahh, you googled my name I see Wink

I am responding to your thread title, not in any official capacity or with any official opinion on the matter. Just the rules as written.

You are right though, they are not viable in long distance or extended time races, but the technology will catch up with that eventually. They are approved for Endurocross.

Ultimately, the goal is to learn from mistakes, not repeat them.

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Chris_Cooksey 9/29/2017 8:21pm
9/29/2017 8:21pm
Erek_Kudla wrote:
Ahh, you googled my name I see ;) I am responding to your thread title, not in any official capacity or with any official opinion on...
Ahh, you googled my name I see Wink

I am responding to your thread title, not in any official capacity or with any official opinion on the matter. Just the rules as written.

You are right though, they are not viable in long distance or extended time races, but the technology will catch up with that eventually. They are approved for Endurocross.

Ultimately, the goal is to learn from mistakes, not repeat them.
Erek,

I think Electric is far easier to police than ICE bikes. Measure torque, top end power and come up with some acceptable power maps. Take a fast 250cc pro and his regular race bike for comparison, then have him test a couple map options. Find 3-4 approved maps and make Alta riders use one of these pre-approved map options. I believe the guys at Alta could help you police the bikes. Plugging in and checking the power map is much easier than tearing down an ICE motor. You could check the entire field in a matter of a few minutes by plugging into their bike and making sure they have an approved map. My two cents....

P.S. I understand the hesitation after overshooting the CC options for 4 strokes.
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Lightning78 9/29/2017 8:33pm
9/29/2017 8:33pm
skiz wrote:
So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.? Sounds reasonable. To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented...
So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.?
Sounds reasonable.

To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented a bike that could accelerate like a railgun, would it stifle innovation to be told that I could only race in the 450 class and not the 250 class.?

How do you define "put your finger on the scale".?
gt80rider wrote:
See, that's the problem, it is extremely hard to get a direct equivalent between a brushless/lithium power system compared to gas. That's why I am amazed...
See, that's the problem, it is extremely hard to get a direct equivalent between a brushless/lithium power system compared to gas. That's why I am amazed they are officially sanctioning direct competition between the two. Should it be 250 or 450? The real answer is neither.
MX Guy wrote:
Having ridden one I can tell you it will absolutely smoke a 250 four stroke with ease on a track like Glen Helen for example, those...
Having ridden one I can tell you it will absolutely smoke a 250 four stroke with ease on a track like Glen Helen for example, those hills would be nothing for the Alta where a 250 needs to shift once or twice, depending.

They're going to have to restrict the top end power of that thing to stay in line with 250's, that's my take.
Exactly I don’t know what everyone so excited about they wanted to get into the 250 class because I guarantee you that bike will smoke at 2:50 but they’re going to keep it just barely above enough to win to stay out of the 450 class just watch it’s going to end up being a massive advantage of the 250 class and then of course like the 250 4 stroke was to the 125 everybody’s going to jump on them and then we have no motor sound. Actually I doubt that will happen but I’m really not looking forward to the electric revolution to be honest when everybody was on two strokes it took a massive scale to ride them fast and Percision then for strokes came along and made it exponentially easier to go fast now there’s a potential for people to be competing on a bike that has no clutch and no gears how much simpler can you make it? It kind of burns me that it’s becoming easier and easier to ride a motorcross bike fast because of advancements like this it’s a sport and a skill that takes a lot of practice in Percision to be good at and I just don’t get excited Thinking about the way things will go home in electric bikes take over internal combustion engines that’s my take on it anyway when my two cents if you will
Chris_Cooksey 9/29/2017 8:36pm
9/29/2017 8:36pm
gt80rider wrote:
See, that's the problem, it is extremely hard to get a direct equivalent between a brushless/lithium power system compared to gas. That's why I am amazed...
See, that's the problem, it is extremely hard to get a direct equivalent between a brushless/lithium power system compared to gas. That's why I am amazed they are officially sanctioning direct competition between the two. Should it be 250 or 450? The real answer is neither.
MX Guy wrote:
Having ridden one I can tell you it will absolutely smoke a 250 four stroke with ease on a track like Glen Helen for example, those...
Having ridden one I can tell you it will absolutely smoke a 250 four stroke with ease on a track like Glen Helen for example, those hills would be nothing for the Alta where a 250 needs to shift once or twice, depending.

They're going to have to restrict the top end power of that thing to stay in line with 250's, that's my take.
Lightning78 wrote:
Exactly I don’t know what everyone so excited about they wanted to get into the 250 class because I guarantee you that bike will smoke at...
Exactly I don’t know what everyone so excited about they wanted to get into the 250 class because I guarantee you that bike will smoke at 2:50 but they’re going to keep it just barely above enough to win to stay out of the 450 class just watch it’s going to end up being a massive advantage of the 250 class and then of course like the 250 4 stroke was to the 125 everybody’s going to jump on them and then we have no motor sound. Actually I doubt that will happen but I’m really not looking forward to the electric revolution to be honest when everybody was on two strokes it took a massive scale to ride them fast and Percision then for strokes came along and made it exponentially easier to go fast now there’s a potential for people to be competing on a bike that has no clutch and no gears how much simpler can you make it? It kind of burns me that it’s becoming easier and easier to ride a motorcross bike fast because of advancements like this it’s a sport and a skill that takes a lot of practice in Percision to be good at and I just don’t get excited Thinking about the way things will go home in electric bikes take over internal combustion engines that’s my take on it anyway when my two cents if you will
Control the output with specific maps..... It's Electric.
StevieTimes
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StevieTimes 9/29/2017 9:00pm
9/29/2017 9:00pm
I think dyno cheating would be easy enough right now, with internal combustion engines. You finish the race, someone in your pit presses a remote-control button that makes your spark wack so you have less horsepower. You could hide a button or switch on the bike too, but that is more risky for getting caught.

I think it would only get easier with electric bikes. As soon as you cross the line, your crew chief presses a button, and you are riding a barely 250F-horsepowered machine. You easily pass any dyno test.




Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 9/30/2017 4:23am
9/30/2017 4:23am
The dyno test is done before the homologation is accepted, not after the race.
Chris_Cooksey 9/30/2017 11:18am
9/30/2017 11:18am Edited Date/Time 9/30/2017 11:20am
StevieTimes wrote:
I think dyno cheating would be easy enough right now, with internal combustion engines. You finish the race, someone in your pit presses a remote-control button...
I think dyno cheating would be easy enough right now, with internal combustion engines. You finish the race, someone in your pit presses a remote-control button that makes your spark wack so you have less horsepower. You could hide a button or switch on the bike too, but that is more risky for getting caught.

I think it would only get easier with electric bikes. As soon as you cross the line, your crew chief presses a button, and you are riding a barely 250F-horsepowered machine. You easily pass any dyno test.




Cheaters are going to find ways to cheat, I imagine it is going on right now. An official could check your bike in seconds, like say after the hot lap. People will always try to game the system, but I think electric is more enforceable than ICE motors.

My guess is somebody in the 250 class got away with a big bore this year.... It's impossible to tear down all 40 bikes at a National. If you are outside the top 10, why not run one?
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loftyair 9/30/2017 11:53am
9/30/2017 11:53am
For top-pro comp, all motors should be allowed. If a guy is 220# when he turns pro, HAS to race a kid whose in it a couple years, and is only 140#, then the HP advantage is huge. They're pros, let them ride what they want!
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Johnny Depp 4/21/2018 9:16am
4/21/2018 9:16am
Stumbled upon this old thread, and realized that the "talking points" about not making the same mistake were being used 6 months before we ever got the Loretta Lynn's "ruling" by a few posters who may have already been in the know. Smells fishy. Especially when there is a willingness now to admit prior mistakes from 30 years ago, yet do nothing to correct the old mistake, only prevent another one...
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Lightning78 4/21/2018 9:41am
4/21/2018 9:41am
gt80rider wrote:
This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are...
This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are they gonna tech the motors? The cells? Is there a max cell count? Max kV? Power output changes with gearing, so is it that locked?

So many questions...
Yes I would like to know that too!!! What if Alta sandbags the testing phases for homologation and uses them to establish a competitiveness baseline and then proceeds to race their "Factory/Works" Bike with a far superior motor and/or motor setting that more inline with competition in the 450 class....there's never gonna be any evidence of cheating with bore and stroke or porting etc... How in the hell are the governing bodies like the FIM gonna make sure their bikes are within some arbitrary spec they've made up which hopefully isn't as blindsided as the 4 stroke displacement rule was? I think DC is right about more testing and analysis needing to be done and I kinda get the impression that the FIM allowed the Alta homologation due to outside pressure to Kickstart the electric MX bike "revolution" ....call me closed minded but I'm still against it and don't believe it's even possible to find the medium where an electric MX bike and an ICE bike can compete against each other w/o one having an unfair advantage. I don't think electric and ICE MX bikes should even compete against each other they are two completely different motorcycles ...hell a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke MX bike have a lot more in common with each other than with an electric bike ...were not even talking a apples to oranges, more like apples to a computer hard drive lol
Lightning78
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Lightning78 4/21/2018 9:42am
4/21/2018 9:42am
This post is like in Terminator when Judgement day started lol
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 4/21/2018 9:59am
4/21/2018 9:59am
This thread is 6 months old and a lot has happened since. The FIM and AMA are both OK with e-bikes and have left it up to supplemental rules (meaning the promoter). Even though the title mentions 250 class, Alta has now released the MXR and is no longer trying for the 250 class, but would like to race in 450 and open classes.
Electric bikes are being raced against ICE bikes in local competition all over the USA and are holding their own.

The sky has not fallen and cats are not sleeping with dogs.
KMC440
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KMC440 4/21/2018 10:59am
4/21/2018 10:59am
I wish there was going to be an Arenacross series next year. That is the perfect series to have an Eb class.
Aceofspades 4/21/2018 10:14pm
4/21/2018 10:14pm
It's going to be so ironic that the universe will collapse when the AMA puts out a statement that the Alta has an "unfair advantage " and changes the rules as soon as Alta wins a race. The same nimrods that give 200cc head starts to 4 strokes.
make1go
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make1go 4/21/2018 10:47pm
4/21/2018 10:47pm
skiz wrote:
So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.? Sounds reasonable. To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented...
So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.?
Sounds reasonable.

To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented a bike that could accelerate like a railgun, would it stifle innovation to be told that I could only race in the 450 class and not the 250 class.?

How do you define "put your finger on the scale".?
easy. massive displacement advantage. that is now seen as a mistake but oddly no ones wants to fix..oem bought and sold..

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Crush
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Crush 4/21/2018 11:16pm
4/21/2018 11:16pm
What happens when the first big crash occurs and an injury because a rider had no idea a silent motorcycle was there?

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