Alta receives FIM Homologation for North America 250 class

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9/9/2017 8:30 AM

I can't find any press release, but it is stated in this article:

"The team at Alta Motors received homologation for FIM North America competition in the 250 class. This unlocks Canada and propels them halfway closer to AMA Supercross, where they really want to race. They have big plans this offseason. Alta Motors is returning to Red Bull Straight Rhythm and including additional European Supercross events. "

https://thumpertalk.com/articles/electric-motorcycles-are-coming-r722/

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 8:59 AM

Good!

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9/9/2017 9:11 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/9/2017 9:11 AM

This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are they gonna tech the motors? The cells? Is there a max cell count? Max kV? Power output changes with gearing, so is it that locked?

So many questions...

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www.bettercallsaul.com
Die Antwoord

9/9/2017 9:22 AM

gt80rider wrote:

This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are they gonna tech the motors? The cells? Is there a max cell count? Max kV? Power output changes with gearing, so is it that locked?

So many questions...

It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open development until it hits that tipping point of fairness, then rein it back in.

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Washed up moto and enduro weekend warrior.

9/9/2017 9:27 AM

Who's gonna build their pipes?

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9/9/2017 9:32 AM

gt80rider wrote:

This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are they gonna tech the motors? The cells? Is there a max cell count? Max kV? Power output changes with gearing, so is it that locked?

So many questions...

MxKing809 wrote:

It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open development until it hits that tipping point of fairness, then rein it back in.

Sorry, I disagree with that concept. Don't stifle innovation or put your finger on the scale. Too many dumb rules already, they shouldn't even need to get approved.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 9:33 AM

gt80rider wrote:

This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are they gonna tech the motors? The cells? Is there a max cell count? Max kV? Power output changes with gearing, so is it that locked?

So many questions...

MxKing809 wrote:

It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open development until it hits that tipping point of fairness, then rein it back in.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Sorry, I disagree with that concept. Don't stifle innovation or put your finger on the scale. Too many dumb rules already, they shouldn't even need to get approved.

They can rate hp of anything

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9/9/2017 9:35 AM

I wonder if Cheed Rad or team Stewart would give them a go in the big boy class?

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 9:43 AM

The sooner the better!

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9/9/2017 9:43 AM

MxKing809 wrote:

It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open development until it hits that tipping point of fairness, then rein it back in.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Sorry, I disagree with that concept. Don't stifle innovation or put your finger on the scale. Too many dumb rules already, they shouldn't even need to get approved.

kkawboy14 wrote:

They can rate hp of anything

So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.?
Sounds reasonable.

To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented a bike that could accelerate like a railgun, would it stifle innovation to be told that I could only race in the 450 class and not the 250 class.?

How do you define "put your finger on the scale".?

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9/9/2017 10:08 AM

gt80rider wrote:

This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are they gonna tech the motors? The cells? Is there a max cell count? Max kV? Power output changes with gearing, so is it that locked?

So many questions...

MxKing809 wrote:

It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open development until it hits that tipping point of fairness, then rein it back in.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Sorry, I disagree with that concept. Don't stifle innovation or put your finger on the scale. Too many dumb rules already, they shouldn't even need to get approved.

I actually think we agree, but I may not have articulated it well.

I don't think they should restrict anything, as to not stifle innovation, UNTIL the electric bikes are too advanced to compete fairly with 250's. Then possibably bump them up to the 450 class, or restrict them.

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Washed up moto and enduro weekend warrior.

9/9/2017 10:29 AM

skiz wrote:

So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.?
Sounds reasonable.

To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented a bike that could accelerate like a railgun, would it stifle innovation to be told that I could only race in the 450 class and not the 250 class.?

How do you define "put your finger on the scale".?

See, that's the problem, it is extremely hard to get a direct equivalent between a brushless/lithium power system compared to gas. That's why I am amazed they are officially sanctioning direct competition between the two. Should it be 250 or 450? The real answer is neither.

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Die Antwoord

9/9/2017 10:33 AM

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“Adhering to 1970’s Standards of Political Correctness”

9/9/2017 10:35 AM

Damn, badass!

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Osama Bin Mixin - Head of the 2-stroke Taliban

9/9/2017 10:53 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Sorry, I disagree with that concept. Don't stifle innovation or put your finger on the scale. Too many dumb rules already, they shouldn't even need to get approved.

kkawboy14 wrote:

They can rate hp of anything

skiz wrote:

So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.?
Sounds reasonable.

To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented a bike that could accelerate like a railgun, would it stifle innovation to be told that I could only race in the 450 class and not the 250 class.?

How do you define "put your finger on the scale".?

Most of us still have a real bad taste in our mouth from the way "fairness" was dealt out when 4 strokes came along. Tastes like doo-doo. Someone named Honda had their finger on the scale, and still do.

Separate discussion, but I am not an advocate of classes defined by HP or CC so I have no allegiance to protect the Pro Circuit and Geico's( or the sandbagger's) of the 250 class.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 10:56 AM

kkawboy14 wrote:

They can rate hp of anything

skiz wrote:

So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.?
Sounds reasonable.

To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented a bike that could accelerate like a railgun, would it stifle innovation to be told that I could only race in the 450 class and not the 250 class.?

How do you define "put your finger on the scale".?

gt80rider wrote:

See, that's the problem, it is extremely hard to get a direct equivalent between a brushless/lithium power system compared to gas. That's why I am amazed they are officially sanctioning direct competition between the two. Should it be 250 or 450? The real answer is neither.

Having ridden one I can tell you it will absolutely smoke a 250 four stroke with ease on a track like Glen Helen for example, those hills would be nothing for the Alta where a 250 needs to shift once or twice, depending.

They're going to have to restrict the top end power of that thing to stay in line with 250's, that's my take.

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9/9/2017 11:28 AM

This is exciting... I hope to see this electric bike win. As for the rules, they have to allow it to race to see where it matches up... And you will only be able to get the needed data from pro level racing.

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"Life is Too Short To Last Long"

9/9/2017 11:40 AM

I wonder how the other manufacturers feel about this? If their finger is on the scale as much as some some suggest, you would think they would want this pushed back till they had their own electric technology read to market.
Or did they set a precedent with the four stroke introduction to racing that is now hurting them when it comes to electrics. Where Alta can basically say, "hey AMA look how the four stroke technology came into racing why not us?" I might be way off and the current manufacturers could be 100% on board with it, who knows?

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9/9/2017 11:42 AM

Fantastic. I hope they whoop some ass in the nationals next year.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

9/9/2017 11:50 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/9/2017 11:51 AM

The current Alta can't even come close to 450 numbers. Why do some of you think they should put it up against them?

Cool news though. Will be interesting to see how they stack up against the 250s in the pro ranks.

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9/9/2017 11:52 AM

122 ft lbs of torque. No 450 comes close.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 11:53 AM

Motodave15 wrote:

This is exciting... I hope to see this electric bike win. As for the rules, they have to allow it to race to see where it matches up... And you will only be able to get the needed data from pro level racing.

Racing Orgs have always matched up/categorized bikes according to CCs. But CCs isn't the samething as power output.

Compare this to the light bulb. For decades we were told that bulbs were 60watt bulbs. But then CFLs and LEDs came along and the packages said, "equivalent to 60watt". Those of us that looked further into it found that light output is measured at 800 Lumens for the classic incandescent light bulb we used all of those decades. So Lumens was what we should have been aware of this entire time.

If we stop focusing on motorcycle CCs, what should we be looking at.?

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9/9/2017 11:54 AM

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 11:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/9/2017 11:57 AM

I think the only way they could realistically limit the power is by limiting the kW hrs of the battery. By limiting the capacity, it limits the amount of power that can be drawn in a given time. Here's a quick example:

Let's say you have a 10 kW hr battery. Depending on you application, you could draw 10kW for an hour until the battery is dead, or you could draw 20kW for half an hour and get higher performance. By doing it this way, power can be limited since the battery has to last 15 min at full power, which limits how much they can draw during the race. Yes, electric motors can be rated by HP, but that is a pretty bad way to go about it for this type of application.

I'm far from an expert on this but from my engineering background I know a little, so that is my theory about how to go about it. Awesome to see them racing, I'm glad they are making progress and really making a push in other types of racing while they wait on getting into the big show.

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9/9/2017 11:57 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/9/2017 12:48 PM

All of these theories about how you could measure it are exactly why you shouldn't even try. You are chasing your tail. Let them race for at least a year as a "prototype" mulligan and then put them in whatever fits.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 11:58 AM

aeffertz wrote:

The current Alta can't even come close to 450 numbers. Why do some of you think they should put it up against them?

Cool news though. Will be interesting to see how they stack up against the 250s in the pro ranks.

What 459 "numbers" are you referring to?

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9/9/2017 12:04 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

I can't find any press release, but it is stated in this article:

"The team at Alta Motors received homologation for FIM North America competition in the 250 class. This unlocks Canada and propels them halfway closer to AMA Supercross, where they really want to race. They have big plans this offseason. Alta Motors is returning to Red Bull Straight Rhythm and including additional European Supercross events. "

https://thumpertalk.com/articles/electric-motorcycles-are-coming-r722/

Photo

i thought the Canadian national moto series ran outside the CMA which is the FIM affiliate there?

does this mean it is ok for GP's?

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9/9/2017 12:05 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/9/2017 12:09 PM

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The blue line of interrupted torque or power delivery with a gearbox is exactly why the Alta works well. No Chassis interruption of traction between gear changes, let alone the power drop.

If I had an Alta the 1st thing I'd do is drop a bunch of teeth on the rear sprocket, with that torque it should pull it like a boss.
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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 12:22 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

I can't find any press release, but it is stated in this article:

"The team at Alta Motors received homologation for FIM North America competition in the 250 class. This unlocks Canada and propels them halfway closer to AMA Supercross, where they really want to race. They have big plans this offseason. Alta Motors is returning to Red Bull Straight Rhythm and including additional European Supercross events. "

https://thumpertalk.com/articles/electric-motorcycles-are-coming-r722/

Photo

scott_nz wrote:

i thought the Canadian national moto series ran outside the CMA which is the FIM affiliate there?

does this mean it is ok for GP's?

I haven't found that answer, and I have searched. Maybe Marc from Alta will drop in and enlighten us a bit?

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/9/2017 12:44 PM

Up thru 02 in Europe and 93 in the USA, we had 3 classes, little bikes, mid bikes, and 500s. Is there any consideration of having 3 categories again, 250, 450, and E.? Those could also be the MxdN categories. Change the Open category to an Electric category and give it a decade or half decade to see if it is supported at all levels of factory, team, and fans interest.

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