All Japan Motocross Championship KX450F

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4/6/2017 7:27 PM

Photo

Photo

Would imagine this is a Pre-2018. Notice any differences?
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4/6/2017 7:30 PM

Not a difference but a similarity. Its got a kickstart lever.

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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





4/6/2017 7:32 PM

I'll be at Rd1, HSR this Saturday and Sunday.
I'll get some photos of what the top guys are running.

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

4/6/2017 7:43 PM

Linkage looks weird

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Osama Bin Mixin - Head of the 2-stroke Taliban

4/6/2017 7:45 PM

Spring forks for 18?

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4/6/2017 7:47 PM

280driver wrote: Photo

Photo

Would imagine this is a Pre-2018. Notice any differences?

Which one of their websites is this on?

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4/6/2017 7:49 PM

ML512 wrote:

Which one of their websites is this on?

Looks like Kawasaki Heavy Industries?

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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





4/6/2017 7:53 PM

kzizok wrote:

Looks like Kawasaki Heavy Industries?

KHI racing site seems to show 2016 race machines only. I'm curious what exact URL it is, I'm trying to blow up these new photos.

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4/6/2017 8:54 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/6/2017 8:55 PM

ML512 wrote:

Which one of their websites is this on?

kzizok wrote:

Looks like Kawasaki Heavy Industries?

ML512 wrote:

KHI racing site seems to show 2016 race machines only. I'm curious what exact URL it is, I'm trying to blow up these new photos.

NVMD.. yeah last years bikes

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Powerband in every gear !

4/6/2017 8:55 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/6/2017 8:56 PM

kzizok wrote:

Looks like Kawasaki Heavy Industries?

ML512 wrote:

KHI racing site seems to show 2016 race machines only. I'm curious what exact URL it is, I'm trying to blow up these new photos.

FGR01 wrote:

NVMD.. yeah last years bikes

I found that page, those are last year's race bikes.

Nvm, you caught that, ha.

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4/6/2017 8:57 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/6/2017 8:58 PM

Very curious.. I've also checked the Japanese pages for those photos, and came up empty.

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

4/6/2017 10:57 PM

tempura wrote:

I'll be at Rd1, HSR this Saturday and Sunday.
I'll get some photos of what the top guys are running.

that'd be cool! thx

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4/7/2017 2:11 AM

This was Kawasaki Global Racing page. It showed these bikes and gave info on the 2017 series. When I went back a few minutes later, i was showing last years bike and 2016 series info. Strange. Anyway, these are screen shots while it was up.

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4/7/2017 5:15 AM

Akira Narita's new HRC CRF450 has a new narrower frame and carbon fiber subframe. Would be awesome if that is 2018 production.

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4/7/2017 5:20 AM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Akira Narita's new HRC CRF450 has a new narrower frame and carbon fiber subframe. Would be awesome if that is 2018 production.

That would be really cool!

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4/7/2017 7:44 AM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Akira Narita's new HRC CRF450 has a new narrower frame and carbon fiber subframe. Would be awesome if that is 2018 production.

And new engine case's with no Kickstart boss.

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4/7/2017 8:01 AM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Akira Narita's new HRC CRF450 has a new narrower frame and carbon fiber subframe. Would be awesome if that is 2018 production.

mx_phreek wrote:

And new engine case's with no Kickstart boss.

Exactly.. I noticed that.. looks very different. Very roundish look to the side of the engine cases. These are significant changes and often indicative of what we will see on next years models. What is not so common is for the Japanese to make such significant changes in the 2nd year of a brand new model so we will see. There is significant weight savings potential with a CF subframe. I wonder if that subframe is from the same source that is making them for the Huskys.

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4/7/2017 8:26 AM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Akira Narita's new HRC CRF450 has a new narrower frame and carbon fiber subframe. Would be awesome if that is 2018 production.

mx_phreek wrote:

And new engine case's with no Kickstart boss.

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Exactly.. I noticed that.. looks very different. Very roundish look to the side of the engine cases. These are significant changes and often indicative of what we will see on next years models. What is not so common is for the Japanese to make such significant changes in the 2nd year of a brand new model so we will see. There is significant weight savings potential with a CF subframe. I wonder if that subframe is from the same source that is making them for the Huskys.

Narita's bikes aren't a good judge of production parts when it comes to trick goodies. Honda really wants him to win, so his bikes get more of a special treatment.

What you're seeing is actually a carbon fiber sideplate on top of a a carbon fiber subframe. That's probably a CRM part, I'm 99.9% sure there won't be one on the production bike. The quality of materials in this aftermarket unit is great but the production Husky unit isn't that light...as the Husky actually weighs more than it's KTM counterpart.

As for the engine cases, I think that's going to be a works only case. I was told that the 18 will come stock with electric start stock, but will keep the kickstart in stock trim. I would be really surprised if it went electric start only considering Honda's stance towards needing a back up to start the bike for the consumer.

Also interesting...he's on KYB now...after a few years on Showa spring forks.

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4/7/2017 11:25 AM

mx_phreek wrote:

And new engine case's with no Kickstart boss.

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Exactly.. I noticed that.. looks very different. Very roundish look to the side of the engine cases. These are significant changes and often indicative of what we will see on next years models. What is not so common is for the Japanese to make such significant changes in the 2nd year of a brand new model so we will see. There is significant weight savings potential with a CF subframe. I wonder if that subframe is from the same source that is making them for the Huskys.

ML512 wrote:

Narita's bikes aren't a good judge of production parts when it comes to trick goodies. Honda really wants him to win, so his bikes get more of a special treatment.

What you're seeing is actually a carbon fiber sideplate on top of a a carbon fiber subframe. That's probably a CRM part, I'm 99.9% sure there won't be one on the production bike. The quality of materials in this aftermarket unit is great but the production Husky unit isn't that light...as the Husky actually weighs more than it's KTM counterpart.

As for the engine cases, I think that's going to be a works only case. I was told that the 18 will come stock with electric start stock, but will keep the kickstart in stock trim. I would be really surprised if it went electric start only considering Honda's stance towards needing a back up to start the bike for the consumer.

Also interesting...he's on KYB now...after a few years on Showa spring forks.

You may be right on the sub frame, Mike, especially if it comes from CRM. You can see the CF side plate over the CF subframe.

I am not so sure on the frame and the engine cases. The Japan manufacturers often do their prototype testing mid-week in Japan when there are very few people around at the Japan tracks, so I used to take one Wednesday a month off to go to the track to see what interesting things I wound see, as well many Japan nationals of course. You could often tell the difference between the one-off trick parts and pre-production parts by the quality of the finish/ welding/ casting. Did that for 15 years. Unless it was a prototype of a new model or pre-production being raced by the factory. For the last few decades, there were a lot of trick bolts such as the suspension, pegs, pipes, triple clamps, hubs, titanium, engine cylinders/ heads, engine covers. You saw modified/ strengthened frames, not completely different frames. There has even been a trend towards use of more aftermarket parts such as the exhausts. We have not seen one-off frames with major changes or one-off trick engine cases. Those parts on Narita's bike this year look like something they could be considering for production. If they went with those engine cases, I would assume they are considering making electric start standard. You never know.

When I saw those changes on the Honda I felt that something has changed at Honda. It is clear they are again becoming more aggressive in wanting to win races/ championships, but that is not their main goal. Their ultimate goal is to sell more production bikes at a time when KTM is starting to embarrass them in many ways. Even if it has little effect on lap times, the average buyer loves new and redesigned parts. It sells bikes. Honda has been selling a lot of 2017 CRF450's with the new design and maybe that has sparked something. Did anyone anticipate that KTM would have CRM mass produce CF subframes for their Husky's? It may not be next year (or not), but I would think that frame and engine cases have a good chance of being production in the not too distant future.

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4/7/2017 11:33 AM

The 17 crf450 is already narrow to the point of being almost too narrow imo.

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when in doubt, pin it out

4/7/2017 11:49 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/7/2017 11:52 AM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

You may be right on the sub frame, Mike, especially if it comes from CRM. You can see the CF side plate over the CF subframe.

I am not so sure on the frame and the engine cases. The Japan manufacturers often do their prototype testing mid-week in Japan when there are very few people around at the Japan tracks, so I used to take one Wednesday a month off to go to the track to see what interesting things I wound see, as well many Japan nationals of course. You could often tell the difference between the one-off trick parts and pre-production parts by the quality of the finish/ welding/ casting. Did that for 15 years. Unless it was a prototype of a new model or pre-production being raced by the factory. For the last few decades, there were a lot of trick bolts such as the suspension, pegs, pipes, triple clamps, hubs, titanium, engine cylinders/ heads, engine covers. You saw modified/ strengthened frames, not completely different frames. There has even been a trend towards use of more aftermarket parts such as the exhausts. We have not seen one-off frames with major changes or one-off trick engine cases. Those parts on Narita's bike this year look like something they could be considering for production. If they went with those engine cases, I would assume they are considering making electric start standard. You never know.

When I saw those changes on the Honda I felt that something has changed at Honda. It is clear they are again becoming more aggressive in wanting to win races/ championships, but that is not their main goal. Their ultimate goal is to sell more production bikes at a time when KTM is starting to embarrass them in many ways. Even if it has little effect on lap times, the average buyer loves new and redesigned parts. It sells bikes. Honda has been selling a lot of 2017 CRF450's with the new design and maybe that has sparked something. Did anyone anticipate that KTM would have CRM mass produce CF subframes for their Husky's? It may not be next year (or not), but I would think that frame and engine cases have a good chance of being production in the not too distant future.

The subframes that Husky uses stock are more of a composite carbon (cheaper to produce), not the same as the carbon fiber subframes that CRM makes for the teams... I also don't think that CRM makes that production subframe for Husky.

Yamaha has had a test frame on a YZ450F race bike there for two years that didn't make it to production and didn't end up being the new one that is being debuted either. Not everything we see there will make production.

Back to what I was saying about Honda and electric start, 18 should have it standard from what I was told...but once again I don't think it'll remove the kickstarter-boss area like Narita's bike. The Japanese engineers from multiple manufacturers I've spoken to are too worried about the implications of going electric start only on their dirtbikes. It's more of they received so much backlash over the electric start kit and the installation headaches, that they will just make that part standard next year but leave the kickstart on. If a consumer wants to, they can easily remove the kickstart lever, actuation shaft, return spring, gear, etc. to save weight. Lastly, that looks like sand-cast cases to me (just my opinion) on Narita's bike, not a mass-production cast/mold.

Added note: I think it's even more likely the whole set of cases is sand-casted considering the built in slave unit for the hydraulic clutch on the right side case.

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4/7/2017 12:15 PM

Soooooo NOBODY has noticed that there isnt a throttle body on this bike in the traditional sense??? Or am i out to lunch? I also Zoomed in on the screen shot of the side of the bike with the header on it and you can see what appears to be some kind of but airbox looking device in the front of the engine with a bunch of lines going to it and maybe im off my rocker but it looks as if where the throttle body would normally be there is some kind of tube feeding the intake .... it almost looks like theyre trying some kind of rudimentary airbox down low by the engine I think? I touch the picture you guys tell me and then zoom in on the other side of the bike shot maybe I'm just seeing things but for some reason the bikes since we missing the throttlebody unless it's hidden really good and then I have egg on my face ha ha Photo

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4/7/2017 12:56 PM

Lightning78 wrote:

Soooooo NOBODY has noticed that there isnt a throttle body on this bike in the traditional sense??? Or am i out to lunch? I also Zoomed in on the screen shot of the side of the bike with the header on it and you can see what appears to be some kind of but airbox looking device in the front of the engine with a bunch of lines going to it and maybe im off my rocker but it looks as if where the throttle body would normally be there is some kind of tube feeding the intake .... it almost looks like theyre trying some kind of rudimentary airbox down low by the engine I think? I touch the picture you guys tell me and then zoom in on the other side of the bike shot maybe I'm just seeing things but for some reason the bikes since we missing the throttlebody unless it's hidden really good and then I have egg on my face ha ha Photo

Sure looks like Bigfoot to me
[LINK TO IMAGE]

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4/7/2017 12:59 PM

Lightning78 wrote:

Soooooo NOBODY has noticed that there isnt a throttle body on this bike in the traditional sense??? Or am i out to lunch? I also Zoomed in on the screen shot of the side of the bike with the header on it and you can see what appears to be some kind of but airbox looking device in the front of the engine with a bunch of lines going to it and maybe im off my rocker but it looks as if where the throttle body would normally be there is some kind of tube feeding the intake .... it almost looks like theyre trying some kind of rudimentary airbox down low by the engine I think? I touch the picture you guys tell me and then zoom in on the other side of the bike shot maybe I'm just seeing things but for some reason the bikes since we missing the throttlebody unless it's hidden really good and then I have egg on my face ha ha Photo

aFACEdismembered wrote:

Sure looks like Bigfoot to me
[LINK TO IMAGE]

Pneumatic valvetrain needs no throttle? Lol

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when in doubt, pin it out

4/7/2017 1:42 PM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Akira Narita's new HRC CRF450 has a new narrower frame and carbon fiber subframe. Would be awesome if that is 2018 production.

Akira is still racing competitively? He's getting up there to keep mixing it up with the young guns. Must be getting close to 40

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4/7/2017 2:48 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/7/2017 2:49 PM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Akira Narita's new HRC CRF450 has a new narrower frame and carbon fiber subframe. Would be awesome if that is 2018 production.

Sparkey wrote:

Akira is still racing competitively? He's getting up there to keep mixing it up with the young guns. Must be getting close to 40

He's in his late 30's.
Generally, the good Japanese riders can have an extended career over here. The pace and competition isn't on the same level as the USA or Europe. A mid pack rider in the US could run away with the Japanese national series.
He's probably got another season or two in him in guessing.
I'm now heading out to HSR, and it's raining pretty heavily...mudder...

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

4/7/2017 2:49 PM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Akira Narita's new HRC CRF450 has a new narrower frame and carbon fiber subframe. Would be awesome if that is 2018 production.

Sparkey wrote:

Akira is still racing competitively? He's getting up there to keep mixing it up with the young guns. Must be getting close to 40

he's 37 and the Japan National champ for a number of years now.

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4/7/2017 3:45 PM

Lightning78 wrote:

Soooooo NOBODY has noticed that there isnt a throttle body on this bike in the traditional sense??? Or am i out to lunch? I also Zoomed in on the screen shot of the side of the bike with the header on it and you can see what appears to be some kind of but airbox looking device in the front of the engine with a bunch of lines going to it and maybe im off my rocker but it looks as if where the throttle body would normally be there is some kind of tube feeding the intake .... it almost looks like theyre trying some kind of rudimentary airbox down low by the engine I think? I touch the picture you guys tell me and then zoom in on the other side of the bike shot maybe I'm just seeing things but for some reason the bikes since we missing the throttlebody unless it's hidden really good and then I have egg on my face ha ha Photo

Downdraft TB like the 2017 CRF.. It is up high behind the cylinder head stays.

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4/7/2017 3:54 PM

ML512 wrote:

Narita's bikes aren't a good judge of production parts when it comes to trick goodies. Honda really wants him to win, so his bikes get more of a special treatment.

What you're seeing is actually a carbon fiber sideplate on top of a a carbon fiber subframe. That's probably a CRM part, I'm 99.9% sure there won't be one on the production bike. The quality of materials in this aftermarket unit is great but the production Husky unit isn't that light...as the Husky actually weighs more than it's KTM counterpart.

As for the engine cases, I think that's going to be a works only case. I was told that the 18 will come stock with electric start stock, but will keep the kickstart in stock trim. I would be really surprised if it went electric start only considering Honda's stance towards needing a back up to start the bike for the consumer.

Also interesting...he's on KYB now...after a few years on Showa spring forks.

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

You may be right on the sub frame, Mike, especially if it comes from CRM. You can see the CF side plate over the CF subframe.

I am not so sure on the frame and the engine cases. The Japan manufacturers often do their prototype testing mid-week in Japan when there are very few people around at the Japan tracks, so I used to take one Wednesday a month off to go to the track to see what interesting things I wound see, as well many Japan nationals of course. You could often tell the difference between the one-off trick parts and pre-production parts by the quality of the finish/ welding/ casting. Did that for 15 years. Unless it was a prototype of a new model or pre-production being raced by the factory. For the last few decades, there were a lot of trick bolts such as the suspension, pegs, pipes, triple clamps, hubs, titanium, engine cylinders/ heads, engine covers. You saw modified/ strengthened frames, not completely different frames. There has even been a trend towards use of more aftermarket parts such as the exhausts. We have not seen one-off frames with major changes or one-off trick engine cases. Those parts on Narita's bike this year look like something they could be considering for production. If they went with those engine cases, I would assume they are considering making electric start standard. You never know.

When I saw those changes on the Honda I felt that something has changed at Honda. It is clear they are again becoming more aggressive in wanting to win races/ championships, but that is not their main goal. Their ultimate goal is to sell more production bikes at a time when KTM is starting to embarrass them in many ways. Even if it has little effect on lap times, the average buyer loves new and redesigned parts. It sells bikes. Honda has been selling a lot of 2017 CRF450's with the new design and maybe that has sparked something. Did anyone anticipate that KTM would have CRM mass produce CF subframes for their Husky's? It may not be next year (or not), but I would think that frame and engine cases have a good chance of being production in the not too distant future.

ML512 wrote:

The subframes that Husky uses stock are more of a composite carbon (cheaper to produce), not the same as the carbon fiber subframes that CRM makes for the teams... I also don't think that CRM makes that production subframe for Husky.

Yamaha has had a test frame on a YZ450F race bike there for two years that didn't make it to production and didn't end up being the new one that is being debuted either. Not everything we see there will make production.

Back to what I was saying about Honda and electric start, 18 should have it standard from what I was told...but once again I don't think it'll remove the kickstarter-boss area like Narita's bike. The Japanese engineers from multiple manufacturers I've spoken to are too worried about the implications of going electric start only on their dirtbikes. It's more of they received so much backlash over the electric start kit and the installation headaches, that they will just make that part standard next year but leave the kickstart on. If a consumer wants to, they can easily remove the kickstart lever, actuation shaft, return spring, gear, etc. to save weight. Lastly, that looks like sand-cast cases to me (just my opinion) on Narita's bike, not a mass-production cast/mold.

Added note: I think it's even more likely the whole set of cases is sand-casted considering the built in slave unit for the hydraulic clutch on the right side case.

Agree the cases look sand cast and not pre-production, and you me right be, Mike, that these changes may never see light of day on the production CRF, but you are pointing out rarer situations re the frame as opposed to the trend. I too have seen one off frames that only appeared at one Japan national and never to be seen again... but that is not the trend. The point I was making that many times changes as significant as an all new fame and engine cases often do make it to the production bikes eventually and wouldn't it be cool if it happened as soon as 2018. Depends whether you see the cup half empty or half full wink

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4/7/2017 5:13 PM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

Downdraft TB like the 2017 CRF.. It is up high behind the cylinder head stays.

Look where the airboot stack is, it's unchanged. A downdraft intake wouldn't really work with the airboot that low. Also, I can see the fuel lines and bottom of the throttle body. I think the photo is just backlit so there's a lot of shadowing in the right areas on the front side of this photo.

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