Aggressive vs. Dirty

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4/22/2018 6:52 AM

There have been many good points made in light of yesterday’s situation here on the board. After every incident like this there is always conflicting feelings on whether a move was aggressive “good old racing” or dirty.

I believe you have to look at the situation of the race to find your answer.

Let’s take a rider like the “old” Vince Friese for example. He was labeled dirty by just about everyone except for himself and a couple others. I believe it was because most of his take outs were retaliation attempts after being just passed. He got good starts and as he was falling back, he would T up a rider in an attempt to pass him back. that’s dirty.

Vegas last year with Osborne. Had Osborne led the whole race and Savatgy passed him with 3/4 a lap to go and then Osborne did what he did, I think people would have felt It was more dirty than aggressive. However, because Osborne only had two turns to go after starting so far behind, I think it had people on the edge of their seats and when it happened, it wasn’t viewed as a dirty move but rather a heroic effort to win the title.

Yesterday? Well, it’s my belief that had that happened earlier in the race. It’s an aggressive move. But, Because it happened with 1/2 a lap to go after being just passed and slightly gapped, it looked more cheap than aggressive.

So, yeah... I think the situation of the race has a lot to do with whether a move will be viewed as dirty or aggressive.

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"I think you're pretty slow, everyone else on here knew that for years."

4/22/2018 6:56 AM

Alright I’ll be back in Wednesday when these repeater threads get dumped

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GP740
Since 1987

4/22/2018 6:59 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/22/2018 7:01 AM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

Alright I’ll be back in Wednesday when these repeater threads get dumped

Yeah... should have probably posted in another thread. My bad. I feel like an old vet rider coming back to the track and needing to get into the groove before trying to do all the jumps. Been a while since I posted.

AND to top it off, I accidentally posted it twice. DOH!

ROOKIE

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"I think you're pretty slow, everyone else on here knew that for years."

4/22/2018 7:03 AM

I think you’re definitely right as far as the situation of the race compared to the viewpoint of the pass. Now if Tomac would’ve hit him when he passed him we’d probably be talking about something totally different. But he didn’t. He passed him completely clean didn’t touch him started to leave him and gets cleaned out in the dirtiest move we’ve seen for a while.

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I'm just here to stir sh#t up...

4/22/2018 7:10 AM

I think it's borderline dirty but to be expected on the last lap for a main event win.

A hard pass on the last lap for a win or podium is what makes it more exciting.

A pass like that with 5 minutes left would be more chickenshit

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4/22/2018 7:53 AM

nrosso391 wrote:

I think you’re definitely right as far as the situation of the race compared to the viewpoint of the pass. Now if Tomac would’ ...more

Wasn't dirty, just agressive, had Tomac took the line Musquin was thinking Tomac would be in. I think it was going to be a good block pass then Tomac would have made the pass back stick in the few last corners. Racing incident if we rewatch the lines during the race.

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4/22/2018 8:02 AM

Imo if he does that pass on the first lap it's a very dirty pass. But because it on he last lap for the win that makes a big difference. I am ok with the pass . .Marv saying it was somehow Eli fault tho .was kind of pathetic. Just own it Marv you went for the kill and got the win !!

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4/22/2018 12:23 PM

To a lot of people it seems to depend on who you cheer on. Personally I look at the bigger picture that I would rather let some shitty moves go unpunished than have every pass investigated by an official

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4/22/2018 1:10 PM

brimx153 wrote:

Imo if he does that pass on the first lap it's a very dirty pass. But because it on he last lap for the win that makes a big ...more

But he got passed on the last lap and had nothing so he just bonzai’ed it in there and hoping he would come out victorious in the mess he was going to make. And he did. This to me was an Alessi move.

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4/22/2018 1:40 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/22/2018 1:42 PM

I prefer to see hard, clean racing no matter if it is first laps, to make the main, for the win, or even for the championship. Bashing into someone else is a skill that even the worst rider in the amateur C race can do. I want to see more passing skill on display from the "best in the world".

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4/22/2018 1:46 PM

brimx153 wrote:

Imo if he does that pass on the first lap it's a very dirty pass. But because it on he last lap for the win that makes a big ...more

Betuel wrote:

But he got passed on the last lap and had nothing so he just bonzai’ed it in there and hoping he would come out victorious in ...more

Marvin must of had something left after getting passed. Call it what you want.... and I think it was super aggressive, but Marvin saw an opening and took it... for an AMA big boy win. Was he sure he could do It? No, but he was sure that for $100.000 he was damn sure going to try. Tune in next race. Perhaps we'll be treated to a rematch scenario.

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4/22/2018 2:06 PM

The only problem I have with the whole situation is how both of them acted about it afterwards. Both acted like little shit heads afterwards. Wish Tomac woulda been his usual quiet self and just punted marv next chance he got. Wish Marv woulda been like hey I got desperate after I got passed and went in to hard on him. It’s racing. That press conference was embarrassing for them both. Entertaining but embarrassing lol

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4/22/2018 2:48 PM

Shouldn't the angle of contact have anything to do with the level of dirtiness? Marvin drove into Eli with his front wheel. IN MY OPINION, that is a dirty move. Marvin saying that "we" took the deep ruts in that corner the whole main is laughable because Eli was behind him the whole race. Marv also claimed there was no line where Eli went in that turn when you can clearly see the existing inside rut. Own it Marv, you were perpendicular to all of the ruts exiting the turns. Marv was not close enough to make the "aggressive" pass he intended. Even when Osbourne passed Savatgy for the title, they were more or less parallel when they came into contact- aggressive but acceptable. This is strictly my gauge of what is acceptable or not. With that being said, I kinda don't blame Marvin for what he did- leading the whole race and then getting passed is beyond frustrating. However, Eli has every right to be bullshit! I guess this is just another thing that makes racing so awesome. To those who are so one sided and claim that the pass was perfectly acceptable, put yourself in Eli's shoes. If you were leading on the last lap and someone drove into you with their front wheel basically at a 90 degree angle, you are completely full of shit if you claim that you'd be ok with it.

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4/22/2018 3:09 PM

Marv is perpendicular to all of the ruts exiting the turn. They hit front wheel to front wheel. I guess you'd understand completely if someone did this to you. Gregory, you're a very evolved person.
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4/22/2018 4:34 PM

1. Anyone who says Osborne's pass on Savatgy last year was dirty is a fool. It was for a championship and happened in a turn.

2. Musquins pass was aggressive. It wasn't "dirty" though. It was for a main event win. Those don't come by all that often and are worth tons of money. Again, it happened in a turn where being aggressive is the most safe place on the track.

3. People will complain about anything. This is a professional sport and these guys should be willing to get a little aggressive to win races. I've gotten more aggressive than that (and been on the other side) plenty of times with good friends of mine. We would always talk about how awesome of a race we had and enjoy some beers together afterward. If it's not cross jumping or doing something that has a great risk of injuring one another then why do people care?

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4/22/2018 5:08 PM

It was just like M.M. said in the interview. There was going to be block pass no matter what, but they were taking the high line all race long and on that last lap E.T. cut down and they come together harder . The pass was for winning and lost of $ . Not dirty just aggressive. Why is the all debates about it i don't understand, it is what it is ! If people don't like the aggressive sports then go watch the dog show or curling.

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4/22/2018 6:01 PM

Disagree fully.

I think a pass worth a penalty of some sort is and should be viewed the same on lap 1 or 20...for a heat win or a championship...

Take football for example...roughing the passer is a flag on the first play of the game or the last...whether it’s preseason or for the super bowl...

Motocross penalties are so subjective that it’s dumb. High profile riders get away with them, others don’t.

Our sport deserves better

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4/22/2018 6:05 PM

Eh it's racing. Big Eli fan here, but he left that door wide open, I'd do way worse for 100k then cleaning some guy out on the last lap of a Supercross race. But I wouldve respected Marvin more if he manned up on the podium and called it what it was instead of babbling off excuses. Next week should be interesting.
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4/22/2018 6:17 PM

Flip109 wrote:

The only problem I have with the whole situation is how both of them acted about it afterwards. Both acted like little shit ...more

I agree, the press conference sounded like teenagers bickering. The whole thing has just made me a bigger fan of JA21.

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4/22/2018 6:35 PM

reynardfan1 wrote:

Disagree fully.

I think a pass worth a penalty of some sort is and should be viewed the same on lap 1 or 20...for a heat win ...more

In football they usually "let them play" in the final minutes of the game unless it's over the top, especially in playoff games

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4/22/2018 9:45 PM

Musquin was just landing from the triple / single into the turn. He appears to be on the rear brake hard and is brake sliding into ET when they collide. I doubt he was planning an outright T-bone takeout. He went for the only option left to try, he launched off the single for the low inside and did not allow for ET turning down on the bottom rut.

If ET's bike had not gotten hung up on MM's foot peg it would not have looked nearly as bad. Shite just happens.

MM does not have a history of doing this.

MM did not do a great job of explaining his move.

The green team should have coached ET on how to handle the press conf. ET has a right to be pissed ... but that did not come off well.

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4/23/2018 3:32 AM

reynardfan1 wrote:

Disagree fully.

I think a pass worth a penalty of some sort is and should be viewed the same on lap 1 or 20...for a heat win ...more

I agree, it wasn’t worth a penalty, just hard racing.

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4/23/2018 3:54 AM

reynardfan1 wrote:

Disagree fully.

I think a pass worth a penalty of some sort is and should be viewed the same on lap 1 or 20...for a heat win ...more

yak651 wrote:

In football they usually "let them play" in the final minutes of the game unless it's over the top, especially in playoff ...more

In Rugby League, unless ya front teef are on the ground or embedded in your opponent's forearm, it's all good...Well, it used to be that way.

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4/23/2018 9:27 AM

Tomac never saw it coming because why would he? Eli made a clean pass on Marvin, developed a little gap, rode a tight line in the corner, and was on the gas for the next lane. He didn't anticipate a kamikaze attack from the orange bike and shouldn't have to.

Marvin's pass was dirtier than his teenage mustache.

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4/23/2018 9:58 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/23/2018 9:59 AM

Mysquin was not taking a racing line, that's the difference between aggressive and dirty in my eyes. Having said that, I don't think any official punishment is needed (even fining a guy, where does that money go? The ama or fims pocket?) settle it on the track next week.

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4/25/2018 5:08 AM

MB19 wrote:

Shouldn't the angle of contact have anything to do with the level of dirtiness? Marvin drove into Eli with his front wheel. IN ...more

Exactly. Really nothing else to say. It was a cheap shot regardless of who you're pulling for.

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4/25/2018 5:10 AM

race wrote:

Musquin was just landing from the triple / single into the turn. He appears to be on the rear brake hard and is brake sliding ...more

How does what happened to the bike have anything to do with it? The bike was blown out from under him. It's pretty clear to see.

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4/25/2018 5:30 AM

IMO it becomes dirty when the rider entering the corner takes out the other guy while hes exiting the corner. If marv got eli like anderson got marv, thats aggressive but i think nailing someone like marv did to eli or eli did to webb is dirty.

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4/25/2018 5:39 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/25/2018 5:39 AM

Its unbelievable that you guys can say the same thing over and over and over. Its mind numbing...

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4/25/2018 5:52 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/25/2018 5:55 AM

It was a “block pass”....it worked! Sometimes they don’t work. How does a rider execute a block pass by staying in his own line? Impossible!

Block pass=getting in the way of the other rider, that’s what moosecan did, it worked, it is what it is!

It’s not aggressive or dirty. Maybe riders should send out love notes informing the other rider he’s about to slam the door on him in the next turn?

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