Age old question

plowboy
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plowboy
Edited Date/Time 1/31/2016 5:39pm
Met a moto dad at the Iron Man last summer. Not a high roller with a semi and multiple bikes/mechanic. Just a working stiff with a fast kid and a budget restricted modified bike. He fully believed that at that level the only thing holding his son back from a factory ride was desire. I felt like an ass but told him that it would take a miracle for anyone on a budget modified bike to successfully compete at the national level. So who's right? Can a really talented rider compete for podiums on a basically stock bike or does it take big bucks to modify a ride so the riders skills can compete with the big boys.
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mxb2
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mxb2 1/30/2016 11:22am
1/30/2016 11:22am
Not a chance for a podium,a stock 450 maybe 15-20 place, 250f , top 25. Imo.
walent215
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walent215 1/30/2016 11:29am
1/30/2016 11:29am
I'm sure everyone knows this already but, 90% rider 10% bike....my son races on a honda 250f that he consistently either holeshot or starts top 3 or 5 and finishes near the front in moto and off road. .he is a good novice rider with not alot of aggression, if that makes sense. The honda 250f is always touted as slow, weak blah blah blah! My point is an aggressive and skilled rider will make his way to the front on a mildly modded, tuned 250f of any brand, imo.
TailSoHard
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TailSoHard 1/30/2016 11:31am
1/30/2016 11:31am
In my opinion if that kid lines up on the start with the attitude of "I can win on this bike", then he has a chance of winning any race he enters. If he lines up with the attitude of "my bike isn't good enough" then he doesn't stand a chance.
Kawisrok
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Kawisrok 1/30/2016 11:36am
1/30/2016 11:36am
I guess the only true way to know is take Cooper Webb and give him a "mildly modded and tuned 250F" and see how he does in a real race, not a test track or anything like that. I can't think of a more truer test.

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Kawasaki-rider 1/30/2016 11:38am
1/30/2016 11:38am
Got an talented friend that hauled ass on his completely bone stock -14 crf 450, kept up with the 450 Mafi team/drivers at our home track (Sweden, a pretty good Emx team) for a few laps before he couldn't cope up because of stamina/training.

So at least here it is possible!
Just feel bad for my friend would could get a decent ride if he just had the cash to go race some bigger races and show himself, but stuck with smaller races cause of budget..
bh84
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bh84 1/30/2016 11:42am
1/30/2016 11:42am
My experience is that anyone can win, as long as they have the drive, the talent, and the skill.

When I was coming through the ranks, albeit in Canadian ATVMX, much less populated but very competitive nonetheless. I ran stock motors until my first pro season. Then, when my race bike broke down. I borrowed a bone stock KTM and won on it, my first and only win at the CMRC Pro level.

Honestly, if your kid thinks he needs more mods to win, he won't win. If he believes in himself and has the skill and talent, he can win on anything. Remember Shorty finished really well a few years back on a stock Honda 450 in SX? If he can do well at that level with a stock bike, a kid can do well in amateur MX on one.
UpTiTe
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UpTiTe 1/30/2016 11:44am
1/30/2016 11:44am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2016 11:45am
Drive and talent will compete on a decent bike.
plowboy
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plowboy 1/30/2016 11:55am
1/30/2016 11:55am
I have no doubt that a guy with excellent skills can dominate the "local" scene on a stock/aftermarket modified scoots. My point was about running up front at the big shows...outdoors/SX. Not saying it's impossible just highly unlikely. It takes that next level of bike design/prep to be a top dog. From what I've seen everyone that lines up at a national/SX is a local badass. Talent gets you so far and then it takes a properly prepped bike to compete with the others of equal skill level. JAMO.
BobPA
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BobPA 1/30/2016 11:59am
1/30/2016 11:59am
250's it would be really difficult to overcome the power difference.

Outdoor and slightly modded 450 would have a pinch of a chance, Damien Plotz (sp?) put in a hell of a ride at Unadilla on a full privateer Honda in 04ish
plowboy
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plowboy 1/30/2016 12:06pm
1/30/2016 12:06pm
I should have said that when I talked to this moto dad that I got the impression that he had reached his maximum investment potential in his sons career. Instead of admitting that his boy could go farther/do better on more expensive equipment...he sort of laid the blame for his sons lack of advancement on a lack of desire/motovation on his boy. My point is....factory support doesn't guarentee a championships but lack of the same doesn't signify lack of skill/desire.
Osaka627
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Osaka627 1/30/2016 12:08pm
1/30/2016 12:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2016 12:09pm
plowboy wrote:
Met a moto dad at the Iron Man last summer. Not a high roller with a semi and multiple bikes/mechanic. Just a working stiff with a...
Met a moto dad at the Iron Man last summer. Not a high roller with a semi and multiple bikes/mechanic. Just a working stiff with a fast kid and a budget restricted modified bike. He fully believed that at that level the only thing holding his son back from a factory ride was desire. I felt like an ass but told him that it would take a miracle for anyone on a budget modified bike to successfully compete at the national level. So who's right? Can a really talented rider compete for podiums on a basically stock bike or does it take big bucks to modify a ride so the riders skills can compete with the big boys.
I believe that dad is correct. Either the ride will find the talent or the talent will find the ride. Period.

If that kid goes and dominates Lorettas in the 250B stock class or Superminis year after year he will get the support
brimx153
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brimx153 1/30/2016 12:08pm
1/30/2016 12:08pm
put dungey on a full stock bike,with revalve suspension . he d top 5 an outdoor easy
vetmxr
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vetmxr 1/30/2016 12:09pm
1/30/2016 12:09pm
You will get pulled on the starts, and at that level "leaving it on longer," to make passes doesn't work real well because everyone leaves it on till the last second if they lift at all. But you can ride it harder and not tire out as fast for the end of the moto's, and with the right do or die attitude this can work. Lots of guys have run up front with inferior bikes. Take MC for exapmple......pretty sure he could have lined up in the 90's with half the machine the other guys had and could still win. A never say die attitude and some talent will take you farther than a ported and polished rocket ship can. Problem is, some guys have both...Smile
plowboy
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plowboy 1/30/2016 12:09pm
1/30/2016 12:09pm
Would RD be where he is if Roger wouldn't have picked him up?
Osaka627
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Osaka627 1/30/2016 12:55pm
1/30/2016 12:55pm
James Stewart riding a 125 and 250 against the very best and winning comes to mind.
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 1/30/2016 1:31pm
1/30/2016 1:31pm
A few years ago Roczen hopped on a KTM 125SX and ran top 5 with it.. A well set up, budget-modified 250F will obviously be at a disadvantage to a factory bike, but if the rider is anything special he will still be scoring points on it every weekend, beating some factory-equipped riders who might be lacking in desire.
Rowlands
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Rowlands 1/30/2016 2:01pm
1/30/2016 2:01pm
brimx153 wrote:
put dungey on a full stock bike,with revalve suspension . he d top 5 an outdoor easy
I am all for rider over bike everytime

But at this level I think the bike does make a differance. The top 10 guys in the nationals are extremely close so the bike defiantly makes a difference.

No way would Dunge get top 5 on a stocker mildly tuned.

At amateur level it's defiantly the rider.
Rowlands
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Rowlands 1/30/2016 2:01pm
1/30/2016 2:01pm
brimx153 wrote:
put dungey on a full stock bike,with revalve suspension . he d top 5 an outdoor easy
I am all for rider over bike everytime

But at this level I think the bike does make a differance. The top 10 guys in the nationals are extremely close so the bike definitely makes a difference.

No way would Dunge get top 5 on a stocker mildly tuned.

At amateur level it's definitely ntly the rider.

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brimx153
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brimx153 1/30/2016 2:21pm
1/30/2016 2:21pm
brimx153 wrote:
put dungey on a full stock bike,with revalve suspension . he d top 5 an outdoor easy
Rowlands wrote:
I am all for rider over bike everytime But at this level I think the bike does make a differance. The top 10 guys in the...
I am all for rider over bike everytime

But at this level I think the bike does make a differance. The top 10 guys in the nationals are extremely close so the bike defiantly makes a difference.

No way would Dunge get top 5 on a stocker mildly tuned.

At amateur level it's defiantly the rider.
DV ,JT$ have both said the same thing . look at how much time he is ahead of 5 place guys outdoors, in a normal race . all stock 450 have enough power for the race . CP377 has races a very stock style engine . the top 10 in the outdoors are nt as close as you think . in SX its a different story alright .
Cancerman
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Cancerman 1/30/2016 2:34pm
1/30/2016 2:34pm
I think that getting the bike set up well and making the rider comfortable so he's confident is more important. You can have all the power in the world but if you can't ride it and use it, you don't stand a chance.
Starcrossed
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Starcrossed 1/30/2016 2:35pm
1/30/2016 2:35pm
Osaka627 wrote:
I believe that dad is correct. Either the ride will find the talent or the talent will find the ride. Period. If that kid goes and...
I believe that dad is correct. Either the ride will find the talent or the talent will find the ride. Period.

If that kid goes and dominates Lorettas in the 250B stock class or Superminis year after year he will get the support
I think this is typically the prevailing dynamic. If this kid is active on the local racing scene, and consistently wins or competes at the highest level, the support will find it's way to him. It doesn't hurt to be as visible as possible when not on the track by helping with the younger kids and setting a positive example.
brimx153
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brimx153 1/30/2016 2:35pm
1/30/2016 2:35pm
brimx153 wrote:
put dungey on a full stock bike,with revalve suspension . he d top 5 an outdoor easy
Rowlands wrote:
I am all for rider over bike everytime But at this level I think the bike does make a differance. The top 10 guys in the...
I am all for rider over bike everytime

But at this level I think the bike does make a differance. The top 10 guys in the nationals are extremely close so the bike defiantly makes a difference.

No way would Dunge get top 5 on a stocker mildly tuned.

At amateur level it's defiantly the rider.
brimx153 wrote:
DV ,JT$ have both said the same thing . look at how much time he is ahead of 5 place guys outdoors, in a normal race...
DV ,JT$ have both said the same thing . look at how much time he is ahead of 5 place guys outdoors, in a normal race . all stock 450 have enough power for the race . CP377 has races a very stock style engine . the top 10 in the outdoors are nt as close as you think . in SX its a different story alright .
eg at hangtown last year . Noren was 10th in the 450 s he got lapped , 9th was filthy phill. he was 2 min 13 seconds behind , i think theres no way in hell a factory bike is worth 2 mins 13 sec ,to someone like tomac . where bike come in to play is tomac beating dungey .but i honestly think dungey or tomac or Kroc would still get at least near a 5 th on a stocker
Sandberm
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Sandberm 1/30/2016 2:36pm
1/30/2016 2:36pm
-Factory suspension has to be just a little bit better right?
-Factory brakes have to be just a little bit better right?

Put those two together and it has to be easier to go fast for 30+2 CONSISTENTLY. I think a guy on a good modified bike can get a podium every once in a while but I think it would be too much work to do it consistently.

scott_nz
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scott_nz 1/30/2016 2:47pm
1/30/2016 2:47pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2016 2:47pm
its more rider than bike, if he has a decent bike that wont break he can go pretty far,

it was not that long ago a kid qualified for loretta's on a 1985 Cr250
MXMattii
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MXMattii 1/30/2016 2:52pm
1/30/2016 2:52pm
Please don't forget Clément Desalle who got third at one heat in Washougal on a stock Honda. The only thing he brought was his Showa Factory kit tuned by the the company of Willy Verstrepen, he's now working for Showa.

ButteryWaffles 1/30/2016 3:28pm
1/30/2016 3:28pm
Didnt Ben Lamay make it into the night show on his buddies 450 that was missing graphics? Pretty sure it was a factory built machine. What about Mike Sottile setting the fastest lap in 2011 at Southwick.
nascarnate326 1/30/2016 4:14pm
1/30/2016 4:14pm
In an amateur race, yes I think that a stock-ish bike can be put on the podium with an amazing rider.

In the 450 class....going to take damn near a miracle or Dungey to put a stock bike up top.
Gabriel J
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Gabriel J 1/30/2016 5:40pm
1/30/2016 5:40pm
ButteryWaffles wrote:
Didnt Ben Lamay make it into the night show on his buddies 450 that was missing graphics? Pretty sure it was a factory built machine. What...
Didnt Ben Lamay make it into the night show on his buddies 450 that was missing graphics? Pretty sure it was a factory built machine. What about Mike Sottile setting the fastest lap in 2011 at Southwick.
Sotille's fastest lap was more due to local knowledge and track conditions early in practice, it hadn't really turned to shit at that point. Southwick has always been a place where locals stood a decent chance when the mx series rolled into town.
Pembroke36
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Pembroke36 1/30/2016 5:47pm
1/30/2016 5:47pm
I wonder how much more power a factory 450 makes over what a privateer would build. Probably closer than you think. I think in todays day and age it is more of the ecu tuning for the start. Seems like a privateer never lucks out with a holeshot anymore. Watch a gopro of a 450 sx and they are barely ever on the throttle.

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