ARB/EPA has targets set on off road bikes again

Mossy
Posts
438
Joined
7/6/2018
Location
Newport News, VA US
4/17/2019 5:02pm
Alex.434 wrote:
Raise your hand if you actually read the documents related to this report. . .. ... ..... Well don't let that get in the way of...
Raise your hand if you actually read the documents related to this report.
.
..
...
.....

Well don't let that get in the way of a good pitchfork party!






https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/rulemaking/2019/redstickeramendments


JM485 wrote:
I just did a fare bit of reading and here's what worries me. 1. Starting with 2022 model years red sticker designation will go away. This...
I just did a fare bit of reading and here's what worries me.

1. Starting with 2022 model years red sticker designation will go away. This means that you're not going to be riding your new motocross bike at state parks anymore, only ttr's, crf's, etc. or, in other words, unless manufacturers want sales to drop off a cliff there's going to be some emissions equipment on that new 450 you have your eye on in 2022.

2. They're essentially trying to regulate emissions on vehicles that in the grand scheme of things do NOTHING. Compare the emissions from all the cars idling on our congested and inefficient highway system every day and I'm sure a clear picture will be painted.

3. Can you imagine how much time, money, and resources went into this project? I mean holy hell this is just insane, I can't even believe these assholes can sit there with a straight face and explain to CA voters they need more money when this is the kind of high profile and extremely pressing issue they decide to investigate. They were thorough, I'll give them that, especially considering how deep they went into correction factors, but come on man there's got to be more pressing issues than this don't ya think?

4. The bike sale data paints a very disturbing picture. Early 2000s had incredible high sales volume, while we up currently aren't seeing much of an increase over the Great Recession.

5. Part of this study was done at UCD when I was a student there and I had absolutely no idea about it, which is somewhat surprising to me.

This all has always really confused me. How much do off-road vehicles/recreational vehicles really contribute to the total pollution in California? Compared to factories and thousands and thousands of vehicles, it HAS to be completely insignificant.

Is there any real data on this that these officials have looked at? Consider a bar chart or graph. I imagine a very tiny minuscule bar labeled (Recreational Vehicles) and then massive larger bars labeled (Personal Vehicles) and (Manufacturing) or (Commercial.)

This kind of stuff really annoys me.
1
nickm
Posts
702
Joined
9/15/2011
Location
CA
4/17/2019 6:37pm
nickm wrote:
I know its not the popular thinking around here, but all this goes away with electric bikes. I'm hoping that electric CRF is for real.
731chopper wrote:
There’s a group of people that don’t want you using the land in a way they don’t like. Noise and air pollution is what’s easy to...
There’s a group of people that don’t want you using the land in a way they don’t like. Noise and air pollution is what’s easy to target now. Oh you have an electric bike? Then let’s take a look at man-made soil erosion and dust creation.
Agree, though soil erosion is a different and possibly easier battle than emissions and noise. Not much difference between an e-dirt bike and a mountain bike when you boil it all down.
1
Texas Built
Posts
870
Joined
5/30/2018
Location
Houston, TX US
4/17/2019 10:50pm
Isn't there a fault line in California that can break it off and sink it into the ocean?
2

The Shop

MotoMo165
Posts
1415
Joined
4/3/2014
Location
TX US
4/18/2019 4:34pm
Texas will be the capital with Dallas and Houston leading the charge In a decade :p
But really Dallas/Houston area is really picking up on all things mx. It’s great.
Matt Fisher
Posts
3947
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Visalia, CA US
Fantasy
1084th
4/18/2019 4:55pm
Mossy wrote:
This all has always really confused me. How much do off-road vehicles/recreational vehicles really contribute to the total pollution in California? Compared to factories and thousands...
This all has always really confused me. How much do off-road vehicles/recreational vehicles really contribute to the total pollution in California? Compared to factories and thousands and thousands of vehicles, it HAS to be completely insignificant.

Is there any real data on this that these officials have looked at? Consider a bar chart or graph. I imagine a very tiny minuscule bar labeled (Recreational Vehicles) and then massive larger bars labeled (Personal Vehicles) and (Manufacturing) or (Commercial.)

This kind of stuff really annoys me.
Logic has nothing to do with it. CA is run by the left, and by definition the left wants to control everything through the government. Obviously there are millions in CA that think it's the way to go.

Gun control, no reusable plastic bags, controls on your BBQ (yes, CARB has talked about controlling that too), there's no end to it. OHV's are just another target.
2
4/18/2019 5:08pm
Mossy wrote:
This all has always really confused me. How much do off-road vehicles/recreational vehicles really contribute to the total pollution in California? Compared to factories and thousands...
This all has always really confused me. How much do off-road vehicles/recreational vehicles really contribute to the total pollution in California? Compared to factories and thousands and thousands of vehicles, it HAS to be completely insignificant.

Is there any real data on this that these officials have looked at? Consider a bar chart or graph. I imagine a very tiny minuscule bar labeled (Recreational Vehicles) and then massive larger bars labeled (Personal Vehicles) and (Manufacturing) or (Commercial.)

This kind of stuff really annoys me.
Got to go for the low hanging fruit first, then it’s a step by step situation.
Add to the fact that motorcyclists are so divided into small groups (over here at least), do you think the general public cares about the difference between enduro, supercross or motocross. As a sport/industry we are an easy target with no lobbying power.
1
akillerwombat
Posts
1973
Joined
10/16/2013
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
4/18/2019 5:10pm
Got to go for the low hanging fruit first, then it’s a step by step situation. Add to the fact that motorcyclists are so divided into...
Got to go for the low hanging fruit first, then it’s a step by step situation.
Add to the fact that motorcyclists are so divided into small groups (over here at least), do you think the general public cares about the difference between enduro, supercross or motocross. As a sport/industry we are an easy target with no lobbying power.
The only reason people go after the low hanging fruit is because the things that clearly need to be changed are the things that people dig their heels into the hardest.

If you want to protect the things at the bottom you have to be willing to compromise at the top.
1
4/18/2019 5:17pm
The only reason people go after the low hanging fruit is because the things that clearly need to be changed are the things that people dig...
The only reason people go after the low hanging fruit is because the things that clearly need to be changed are the things that people dig their heels into the hardest.

If you want to protect the things at the bottom you have to be willing to compromise at the top.
Couldn’t agree more, it isn’t the 80s and 90s anymore, things are changing, and I would rather at least have somewhere to ride any bike than a 450 sitting in the garage I can’t use...sorry to steer the conversation off, we have similar ‘issues’ over here with almost 70 million on this pissy little island.
akillerwombat
Posts
1973
Joined
10/16/2013
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
4/18/2019 6:00pm
Couldn’t agree more, it isn’t the 80s and 90s anymore, things are changing, and I would rather at least have somewhere to ride any bike than...
Couldn’t agree more, it isn’t the 80s and 90s anymore, things are changing, and I would rather at least have somewhere to ride any bike than a 450 sitting in the garage I can’t use...sorry to steer the conversation off, we have similar ‘issues’ over here with almost 70 million on this pissy little island.
Same.

Everyone is out here screaming "me me ME ME ME!" without realizing that it's fucking ALL of us over.

You want to protect bikes and places to ride? Then stop blaming the government for cracking down on shit like this and start getting angry at EVERYONE for protecting the companies that put us in this spot. We endlessly bend over backwards to protect companies in this country that royally fuck up the environment and everything else for us because they give us "cheap gas" or "cheap power" and "cheap shitty everything else" and now it's fucking us over.

I mean honestly, you think the when the hammer comes down on Exxon or some energy company they're just going to roll over and take the hit? Fuck no. They're going to, as they've always done, shill out billions of dollars to insure their methods don't have to change (or change the bare minimum) so that their profits don't move a cent and the CEO can keep making $20 mil a year.

And when they don't change, what happens? The issue gets kicked down the next guy, and the next, and the next until it lands on us, the same people protecting these companies, which shockingly is the demographic that don't have the billions required to control legislation. And where are those companies destroying our riding land now? Are they running out of their gold encrusted penthouse suits to help us protect our riding lands like we protect their companies? Fuck no. They're out there cutting more and more regulation, opening more land for mining, and fucking shit up for all of us.

Funny how as we constantly lose more places to ride the companies that rely on the environment to exist (and are already making billions) are given more land to expand at our expense.



FYI – none of that was directed at you.
1
5
Sierra Ranger
Posts
841
Joined
12/30/2018
Location
Sacramento, CA US
4/19/2019 9:05am
I looked at public comments, and it's really hard to figure out what's going on here, but it does sound like the state is communicating with industry. Here is one comment from a group of moto interests including Motion Pro, AMA D36, Scot Harden and some other industry concerns. It says they support sunsetting the red sticker program.
https://www.arb.ca.gov/lists/com-attach/2-ohrv2019-WihTMFI3Ul5XIgJ2.pdf

"Over the years, motorcycle competition stakeholders have stated –to both the EPA and CARB -that practice riding on both public and private lands is a critical component of competition motorcycle riding just as practice driving is important to long-distance trophy truck racers and similar non-motorcycle or non-motorized competitors.Unfortunately, it appears our efforts to communicate the importance of riders having access to meaningful practice for competition events on private, local, state, and federal lands is not being captured by EPA and CARB.

"Stakeholders support sunsetting the red sticker program in 2025. However, the proposed CARB regulation to reduce the number of air emission non-compliant competition motorcycles being used for general recreation and increase the number of air emission compliant “Green Sticker” motorcycles, must not forget that the sale, operation, and resale of competition motorcycles will rightfully continue. In addition, many off highway motorcycle models are evolving to on-highway cleanliness levels."

Also, their issue seems to be with regulations that are already in place:

Stakeholders are concerned the Report grossly underestimates fiscal impacts to dealerships, customers, and affected agencies since the Proposed Action Alternative (PA) does not include replacing the Red Sticker Program with a Competition Sticker or Decal Program that retains the 17 digit VIN (vehicle identification number). The VIN allows customers to obtain financing, title, and registration so they can afford to purchase, operate, and resell said vehicle.
A new competition sticker or decal program will also continue fiscal support for OHV-related land management and law enforcement agencies.The short timeframe to implement the CARB proposal by DMV and State Parks demands that state legislation be passed in 2019 and take effect on January 1, 2020. Only then will the affected agencies have time to effectively plan and implement the CARB regulation. All laws and procedures must be in place before the 2022 model year competition motorcycles arrive at the marketplace in the summer of 2021.
Stakeholders believe the CARB [proposed alternative] will have the practical effect of delegitimizing competition motorcycle events and related practice riding on public lands and driving said activity underground back to where it was in the late 1960s. Stakeholders believe a “Competition Community” stakeholder alternative must be considered that minimizes the use of air emissions non-compliant competition motorcycles for general recreation and increases the number of emissions compliant “Green Sticker” motorcycles used for general recreation so the agency can meet its emission reduction goals."

All public comments: https://www.arb.ca.gov/lispub/comm/bccommlog.php?listname=ohrv2019
Natester551v
Posts
1002
Joined
1/11/2015
Location
St. George, UT US
4/19/2019 10:23am
Mossy wrote:
This all has always really confused me. How much do off-road vehicles/recreational vehicles really contribute to the total pollution in California? Compared to factories and thousands...
This all has always really confused me. How much do off-road vehicles/recreational vehicles really contribute to the total pollution in California? Compared to factories and thousands and thousands of vehicles, it HAS to be completely insignificant.

Is there any real data on this that these officials have looked at? Consider a bar chart or graph. I imagine a very tiny minuscule bar labeled (Recreational Vehicles) and then massive larger bars labeled (Personal Vehicles) and (Manufacturing) or (Commercial.)

This kind of stuff really annoys me.
Logic has nothing to do with it. CA is run by the left, and by definition the left wants to control everything through the government. Obviously...
Logic has nothing to do with it. CA is run by the left, and by definition the left wants to control everything through the government. Obviously there are millions in CA that think it's the way to go.

Gun control, no reusable plastic bags, controls on your BBQ (yes, CARB has talked about controlling that too), there's no end to it. OHV's are just another target.
you forgot about drinking straws....

you're spot-on about logic - common sense has nothing to do with it. Can't reason with people that worship at the green altar. Their goal is complete land closure, since humans are the enemy.
2
TriRacer27
Posts
5450
Joined
2/7/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
Fantasy
42nd
4/23/2019 7:38am
JBecker 72 wrote:
Wonder what they mean by ending red sticker permits and red sticker seasonal restrictions? Something tells me that they aren’t about to allow a bunch of...
Wonder what they mean by ending red sticker permits and red sticker seasonal restrictions? Something tells me that they aren’t about to allow a bunch of previously restricted bikes on public lands year round. If they are just discontinuing the program and only allowing 50 state emission compliant bikes on public land that would really suck for riders.
Tiki wrote:
It's dick waving. They want all, we want it all and there will be a compromise. Remember, what starts here in California, migrates east. How's those...
It's dick waving. They want all, we want it all and there will be a compromise.

Remember, what starts here in California, migrates east. How's those catalytic converters doing on your cars and tractors. And how's that illegal alien labor?

OK that was off sides. But?
TeamGreen wrote:
Example: 2019 CRF450L v 2019 CRF450R for this comparo... They -LITERALLY- want ALL THE EVAP shit and CATALYTIC BS that’s on a CRF-L...on your R. No...
Example: 2019 CRF450L v 2019 CRF450R for this comparo...
They -LITERALLY- want ALL THE EVAP shit and CATALYTIC BS that’s on a CRF-L...on your R.

No shit.

Late last year I got a bulletin on the upcoming revaluations. I was most annoyed by the ultimate outcome...
Eventually they want ALL “non-compliant” OHVs OUT of state riding areas.
Hollister...
Gorman...
Piano...
Those are just examples.

When you ask them for the data on the ACTUAL IMPACT of the OHV segment on California’s “air quality”...they start going into their “evaporative” speech...

So, get this, that’s all about the gas that’s EVAPORATING thru the VENT HOSE on your gas-tank &/or carb...most modern bikes that’re injected are already quite a bit “cleaner” in this situation. ...the stupidity in all of this is typical “Sacramento Saving Us From NOTHING”.

Dirt Bikes. Air Quality. Regulation.

Ridiculous
tunedlength
Posts
2721
Joined
12/9/2006
Location
Ontario, CA US
4/23/2019 10:46pm
Couldn’t agree more, it isn’t the 80s and 90s anymore, things are changing, and I would rather at least have somewhere to ride any bike than...
Couldn’t agree more, it isn’t the 80s and 90s anymore, things are changing, and I would rather at least have somewhere to ride any bike than a 450 sitting in the garage I can’t use...sorry to steer the conversation off, we have similar ‘issues’ over here with almost 70 million on this pissy little island.
Same. Everyone is out here screaming "me me ME ME ME!" without realizing that it's fucking ALL of us over. You want to protect bikes and...
Same.

Everyone is out here screaming "me me ME ME ME!" without realizing that it's fucking ALL of us over.

You want to protect bikes and places to ride? Then stop blaming the government for cracking down on shit like this and start getting angry at EVERYONE for protecting the companies that put us in this spot. We endlessly bend over backwards to protect companies in this country that royally fuck up the environment and everything else for us because they give us "cheap gas" or "cheap power" and "cheap shitty everything else" and now it's fucking us over.

I mean honestly, you think the when the hammer comes down on Exxon or some energy company they're just going to roll over and take the hit? Fuck no. They're going to, as they've always done, shill out billions of dollars to insure their methods don't have to change (or change the bare minimum) so that their profits don't move a cent and the CEO can keep making $20 mil a year.

And when they don't change, what happens? The issue gets kicked down the next guy, and the next, and the next until it lands on us, the same people protecting these companies, which shockingly is the demographic that don't have the billions required to control legislation. And where are those companies destroying our riding land now? Are they running out of their gold encrusted penthouse suits to help us protect our riding lands like we protect their companies? Fuck no. They're out there cutting more and more regulation, opening more land for mining, and fucking shit up for all of us.

Funny how as we constantly lose more places to ride the companies that rely on the environment to exist (and are already making billions) are given more land to expand at our expense.



FYI – none of that was directed at you.
Wombat,
I want to be sure I understand your point.
You believe if companies with large enviro impacts like Exxon were fairly held to task that we wouldn't be experiencing this type of (OHV vehicle) regulation?

Post a reply to: ARB/EPA has targets set on off road bikes again

The Latest