AMA Nationals sub par? Lets take a look.

brimx153
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brimx153 9/4/2017 4:16pm
9/4/2017 4:16pm
top 5 in the US is strong equal to mxgp . after that its weak .then from 15 on it terrible compare to what it use to be . imo Stanton could still top 20 an ama national .
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 9/4/2017 4:20pm
9/4/2017 4:20pm
jamma10 wrote:
Good post Park Boys. The overreaction to Ironman was ridiculous, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that a lot of Americans only really...
Good post Park Boys. The overreaction to Ironman was ridiculous, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that a lot of Americans only really care about who wins while writing virtually everything else off as irrelevant. That's why years of back to back MXdN victories painted a somewhat distorted picture in the minds of many fans who decided to shut up shop and ignore the GPs entirely.

Maybe that winners mindset is a trait to be admired, I don't know. But it sure throws the cat amongst the pigeons when the unexpected happens.

(those gifs are brilliant btw Laughing )
kkawboy14 wrote:
Over reaction? The guy went from last 2 first like everybody else was on bigwheels!
jamma10 wrote:
But you have to consider the reasons for it - A few of the better riders were absent, Tomac was riding ultra-conservatively and a few of...
But you have to consider the reasons for it - A few of the better riders were absent, Tomac was riding ultra-conservatively and a few of the others didn't seem overly interested for one reason or another, so it was a perfect senario for someone ultra-motivated like Herlings to come along and do what he did. If more people realised just how good Herlings was to begin it may not have come as such a surprise.

The trouble is that over the years American fans have been conditioned to believe that the Outdoor Nationals is the toughest series with the deepest field (Im not disputing that that hasnt been the case at times). But despite what Weege tells you before the start of every Outdoor National only 20 or so riders are genuinely fast. Some of the others aren't much quicker than the Thai or Mexican riders who make up the gate at the fly-away GPs. So take away five or six of the quicker guys and you can see why it was relatively easy pickings for Herlings. But there's no way he could have done the same thing at Hangtown.
I agree but man the visual of that unfolding in front of our eyes was scary
scooterwhipmoore 9/4/2017 4:24pm
9/4/2017 4:24pm
brimx153 wrote:
top 5 in the US is strong equal to mxgp . after that its weak .then from 15 on it terrible compare to what it use...
top 5 in the US is strong equal to mxgp . after that its weak .then from 15 on it terrible compare to what it use to be . imo Stanton could still top 20 an ama national .
St Ann More
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St Ann More 9/4/2017 4:32pm
9/4/2017 4:32pm Edited Date/Time 9/4/2017 5:08pm
Eli winning two out of his last three home GP's PB? Like Cairoli in Italy, Herlings in Holland, Febvre in France.

Most of the winning in the MXGP class is done by a few guys? That's normal. Same in the Nationals:

2017
Overall winners: GP's 5 - 3 AMA *5
Moto winners: GP's 7 - 6 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 15 - 11 AMA

2016

Overall winners: GP's 5 - 2 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 6 - 2 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 15 - 10 AMA

2015

Overall winners: GP's 7 - 4 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 8 - 4 AMA
Top three in a moto: 14 - 11 AMA

2014

Overall winners: GP's 5 - 5 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 6 - 6 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 8 - 6 AMA

But MXGP has more winners and threats for the podium year on year and I think that's maybe where 'the depth' point comes into play for many, rightly or wrongly, it is what it is, and it'll never truly be settled I doubt!

Until then it's Tomac 5-1 in USGP's, Team USA on a five year losing streak, Herlings undefeated in the AMA Nationals, Tomac 6th on average in Europe, Eli has the head-to-head advantage over Cairoli, Herlings has the advantage over Eli, RJ ruined Seewer and Jonass, Pourcel smoked RV/RD far more times than he did Cairoli, coupled with caveat after caveat to counter and justify why, all in the name of bench racing! The hype wouldn't be there without it andthe sky isn't falling out of AMA Motocross, just the high expectations previously set aren't arguably always being met!

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jeffro503
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jeffro503 9/4/2017 4:35pm
9/4/2017 4:35pm
Prejump wrote:
I think the US are great at bigging there riders up. Making them more then they are, a few fast moto's & they are world class...
I think the US are great at bigging there riders up. Making them more then they are, a few fast moto's & they are world class.

The US has the same style tracks prepped in the same way. They dont travel to different countries & face the challenges that go with it.

I bet many US fans didnt think much of Covington, yet he showed you he's being developing world class speed away from states. Only your fastest acclimatized local boy from AMA beat him.

I know you all say RV didnt care when he tried MXGP, of course he did racers have huge ego's. He just couldnt cut it internationally.

The MXGP is just going to get stronger, more nations are producing fast riders that are willing to travel.

IMO Tomac wining a national series mostly full of privateers is sandbagging. He should man up & bring US a real world title.
See...this is why we debate stuff on here. I think what PB wrote was pretty impressive. This one above.....so full of fucking stupid.
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St Ann More 9/4/2017 4:36pm
9/4/2017 4:36pm Edited Date/Time 9/4/2017 4:37pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
Over reaction? The guy went from last 2 first like everybody else was on bigwheels!
jamma10 wrote:
But you have to consider the reasons for it - A few of the better riders were absent, Tomac was riding ultra-conservatively and a few of...
But you have to consider the reasons for it - A few of the better riders were absent, Tomac was riding ultra-conservatively and a few of the others didn't seem overly interested for one reason or another, so it was a perfect senario for someone ultra-motivated like Herlings to come along and do what he did. If more people realised just how good Herlings was to begin it may not have come as such a surprise.

The trouble is that over the years American fans have been conditioned to believe that the Outdoor Nationals is the toughest series with the deepest field (Im not disputing that that hasnt been the case at times). But despite what Weege tells you before the start of every Outdoor National only 20 or so riders are genuinely fast. Some of the others aren't much quicker than the Thai or Mexican riders who make up the gate at the fly-away GPs. So take away five or six of the quicker guys and you can see why it was relatively easy pickings for Herlings. But there's no way he could have done the same thing at Hangtown.
kkawboy14 wrote:
I agree but man the visual of that unfolding in front of our eyes was scary
I don't know how much you follow the GP's, but check out the 2nd moto at Trentino.

Along with Herlings charge at Ironman, arguably the best moto we've seen outdoors all year.
Park Boys
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Park Boys 9/4/2017 4:47pm
9/4/2017 4:47pm
philG wrote:
Everts is right... there is no-one coming through like Stew or RV or even Dungey ,,, Hill won SX , Mookie won SX , both have...
Everts is right... there is no-one coming through like Stew or RV or even Dungey ,,, Hill won SX , Mookie won SX , both have been around a long time now, Osborne won outdoors and he is older than Dungey.

There are lots of guys who are all ' ok' .. Sexton, Smith, Plessinger, Harrison, etc, Cianciarulo has been about for ages and still not fired on all cylinders, and Forkner has been a bit meh as well. Both the Martin boys are old as the hills too, but there is no phenom in the wings,

All talented guys, no doubt , but who is the guy now that was the AC of his year , or the RV of his year... we all knew these guys were coming and were going to stamp their authority on the job, i dont see that guy right now.


We have Prado and Lawrence , and maybe Mewse if he can get a handle on it, and possibly Pootjes(who has had a tough time this year) , who are going to have to take it to Jonass next year, of those i rate Prado highly, considering he is still in school.

As for the big class.... Tomac was struggling in qualifying , 13th place or close to , in AMA thats Henry Miller teritory, you just cant compare the 2 right now, simply because so many guys are SX only, waiting for an offer that is never going to come, or in Canada.. and 250 guys just dont move up.

Imagine the outdoors with Mookie(for 5 laps) Millsaps, Weimer , Pourcel , Alessi, even Goerke , plus both Martins, Osborne, Canard , and Dungey , with Roczen .. and on on form Webb.. and Reed. Thats a field to match the GP boys all the way down to 15th easy , which is how it used to be, the fact that it isnt means guys can pretty much phone in a top 10 , whereas before it was a push to do it.


I Feel that Tomac has been cut a break this year , Roczen going out and Dungey quitting has made his year a lot easier, i could see him never winning one if they were both riding, not that he isnt fast enough, just that he is has off days that those 2 would have punished him for,
You could say he did them a favour when he grenaded himself , after RV hung it up, maybe he was too eager to be 'next'..

What we saw from Cairoli and Herlings yesterday was a guy who wants to win by winning, and by signing a 2 year deal , he is going to stand up and make Herlings win it next year.


While i love the fact Marv and Roczen give us the chance to cheer in the AMA , i really wished they were all here, that would be insane.
Everts said we don't have kids coming through which I thought was odd giving that there always kids coming up here. Is he talking about the 250s? Sure Osborne is old but he is years younger than Cairoli and he seems to be going fine, A Mart is old but J Mart is not to old and if the team situations were better he would have been on 450s last year. You say Sexton is okay but it's his rookie year Forkner isint even 20 yet. Pleasinger could have a big future and you just saw Hampshire get his first professional win in his pro career. Savtgy is damn fast. AC is still only 21 and he has won inside and out this year he on his way and now Cooper looks prettt good and there is more coming.

You said Prado and Lawerence and they are great and Padro has been linked to coming to the AMA for years and Wheeler just said Lawerence is coming over to Geico in 2019 so it looks like Supercross is still doing its job of attracting top talent.

Tomac struggled on Saturday and then went 1-3 on Sunday so who cares if he got 13th, when it mattered a far better Tomac showed up.

You can compare the two series easily but Injuries every year play the biggest factor in both series. Usually the AMA guys get hurt more and it showed this year. By the end of the nationals a lot of the talent was hurt but it's not like they don't exist. The 2015 MXGP season was the pretty bad for injuries for example.

Tomac was helped out for the title with injuries or from retirement but every rider who has won a championship in either the AMA or GPs currently racing has been helped out by someone getting Hurt,Moving form GPs to AMA or from retiring so why should Tomac be singled out?
Park Boys
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Park Boys 9/4/2017 5:04pm
9/4/2017 5:04pm Edited Date/Time 9/4/2017 5:11pm
St Ann More wrote:
Eli winning two out of his last three home GP's PB? Like Cairoli in Italy, Herlings in Holland, Febvre in France. Most of the winning in...
Eli winning two out of his last three home GP's PB? Like Cairoli in Italy, Herlings in Holland, Febvre in France.

Most of the winning in the MXGP class is done by a few guys? That's normal. Same in the Nationals:

2017
Overall winners: GP's 5 - 3 AMA *5
Moto winners: GP's 7 - 6 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 15 - 11 AMA

2016

Overall winners: GP's 5 - 2 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 6 - 2 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 15 - 10 AMA

2015

Overall winners: GP's 7 - 4 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 8 - 4 AMA
Top three in a moto: 14 - 11 AMA

2014

Overall winners: GP's 5 - 5 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 6 - 6 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 8 - 6 AMA

But MXGP has more winners and threats for the podium year on year and I think that's maybe where 'the depth' point comes into play for many, rightly or wrongly, it is what it is, and it'll never truly be settled I doubt!

Until then it's Tomac 5-1 in USGP's, Team USA on a five year losing streak, Herlings undefeated in the AMA Nationals, Tomac 6th on average in Europe, Eli has the head-to-head advantage over Cairoli, Herlings has the advantage over Eli, RJ ruined Seewer and Jonass, Pourcel smoked RV/RD far more times than he did Cairoli, coupled with caveat after caveat to counter and justify why, all in the name of bench racing! The hype wouldn't be there without it andthe sky isn't falling out of AMA Motocross, just the high expectations previously set aren't arguably always being met!
Your stats are wrong there have been five different winners this year in the Nationals Tomac,Musquin,Bagget,Bogle and of course Herlings. Last year in the Nationals three guys won not two, remember Roczens fork leak giving RD the win but had he not gotten hurt he would have won.

Also I can only think of a single race where Pourcel beat RV and he crashed in the race but he did beat Dungey in a one year strecth more than he beat AC although they tied on overall wins that year and RD got the title. So he beat AC for a title but never RV or RD and he got some help to beat AC though as AC won three times as many motos that year but had a strange year with dumb mistakes.
pilotdude
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pilotdude 9/4/2017 5:43pm
9/4/2017 5:43pm
Prejump wrote:
I think the US are great at bigging there riders up. Making them more then they are, a few fast moto's & they are world class...
I think the US are great at bigging there riders up. Making them more then they are, a few fast moto's & they are world class.

The US has the same style tracks prepped in the same way. They dont travel to different countries & face the challenges that go with it.

I bet many US fans didnt think much of Covington, yet he showed you he's being developing world class speed away from states. Only your fastest acclimatized local boy from AMA beat him.

I know you all say RV didnt care when he tried MXGP, of course he did racers have huge ego's. He just couldnt cut it internationally.

The MXGP is just going to get stronger, more nations are producing fast riders that are willing to travel.

IMO Tomac wining a national series mostly full of privateers is sandbagging. He should man up & bring US a real world title.
Rarely do you see so much ignorance and arrogance in the same post, but you definitely pulled it off with this one.
SCR
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SCR 9/4/2017 5:55pm
9/4/2017 5:55pm
St Ann More wrote:
Eli winning two out of his last three home GP's PB? Like Cairoli in Italy, Herlings in Holland, Febvre in France. Most of the winning in...
Eli winning two out of his last three home GP's PB? Like Cairoli in Italy, Herlings in Holland, Febvre in France.

Most of the winning in the MXGP class is done by a few guys? That's normal. Same in the Nationals:

2017
Overall winners: GP's 5 - 3 AMA *5
Moto winners: GP's 7 - 6 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 15 - 11 AMA

2016

Overall winners: GP's 5 - 2 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 6 - 2 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 15 - 10 AMA

2015

Overall winners: GP's 7 - 4 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 8 - 4 AMA
Top three in a moto: 14 - 11 AMA

2014

Overall winners: GP's 5 - 5 AMA
Moto winners: GP's 6 - 6 AMA
Top three in a moto: GP's 8 - 6 AMA

But MXGP has more winners and threats for the podium year on year and I think that's maybe where 'the depth' point comes into play for many, rightly or wrongly, it is what it is, and it'll never truly be settled I doubt!

Until then it's Tomac 5-1 in USGP's, Team USA on a five year losing streak, Herlings undefeated in the AMA Nationals, Tomac 6th on average in Europe, Eli has the head-to-head advantage over Cairoli, Herlings has the advantage over Eli, RJ ruined Seewer and Jonass, Pourcel smoked RV/RD far more times than he did Cairoli, coupled with caveat after caveat to counter and justify why, all in the name of bench racing! The hype wouldn't be there without it andthe sky isn't falling out of AMA Motocross, just the high expectations previously set aren't arguably always being met!
I don't know what your going on about here. The US has a better GP record in recent years than the entire cooperative of the worlds best riders from every country in the world.

Here are some statistics for you. There have been 4 GPs in the US in the last 3 years. 2 of the tracks nobody ever raced before. Between the 250 and 450s the US has won 5 of 8 possible overalls / 10 of 16 possible motos / 15 of 24 possible podiums.

Its even more impressive when you consider Tomac is the only top 10 450 guy we had last two years and in 2015 we had Cooper racing a 450 for the first time and Josh Grant. In the 250s we typically have one or two top five guys and that's it. Exept for this year of course when our 10th ranked 250 guy went 1-1.

Herlings put a smack down on everyone the last two weeks and it was awesome to watch. Herlings speed doesn't make the rest of the GP guys faster though. And it doesn't change the fact that the few US guys we entered in GPs over the last few years earned more overall wins, more moto wins, and more podiums than the entire make up of the best GP riders from around the globe.
Hut
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Hut 9/4/2017 6:01pm
9/4/2017 6:01pm
SCR wrote:
I don't know what your going on about here. The US has a better GP record in recent years than the entire cooperative of the worlds...
I don't know what your going on about here. The US has a better GP record in recent years than the entire cooperative of the worlds best riders from every country in the world.

Here are some statistics for you. There have been 4 GPs in the US in the last 3 years. 2 of the tracks nobody ever raced before. Between the 250 and 450s the US has won 5 of 8 possible overalls / 10 of 16 possible motos / 15 of 24 possible podiums.

Its even more impressive when you consider Tomac is the only top 10 450 guy we had last two years and in 2015 we had Cooper racing a 450 for the first time and Josh Grant. In the 250s we typically have one or two top five guys and that's it. Exept for this year of course when our 10th ranked 250 guy went 1-1.

Herlings put a smack down on everyone the last two weeks and it was awesome to watch. Herlings speed doesn't make the rest of the GP guys faster though. And it doesn't change the fact that the few US guys we entered in GPs over the last few years earned more overall wins, more moto wins, and more podiums than the entire make up of the best GP riders from around the globe.
Rambo! is that you?
SCR
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SCR 9/4/2017 6:35pm
9/4/2017 6:35pm
SCR wrote:
I don't know what your going on about here. The US has a better GP record in recent years than the entire cooperative of the worlds...
I don't know what your going on about here. The US has a better GP record in recent years than the entire cooperative of the worlds best riders from every country in the world.

Here are some statistics for you. There have been 4 GPs in the US in the last 3 years. 2 of the tracks nobody ever raced before. Between the 250 and 450s the US has won 5 of 8 possible overalls / 10 of 16 possible motos / 15 of 24 possible podiums.

Its even more impressive when you consider Tomac is the only top 10 450 guy we had last two years and in 2015 we had Cooper racing a 450 for the first time and Josh Grant. In the 250s we typically have one or two top five guys and that's it. Exept for this year of course when our 10th ranked 250 guy went 1-1.

Herlings put a smack down on everyone the last two weeks and it was awesome to watch. Herlings speed doesn't make the rest of the GP guys faster though. And it doesn't change the fact that the few US guys we entered in GPs over the last few years earned more overall wins, more moto wins, and more podiums than the entire make up of the best GP riders from around the globe.
Hut wrote:
Rambo! is that you?


That's Right. Nothing Is Over.
Flip109
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Flip109 9/4/2017 7:37pm
9/4/2017 7:37pm
SCR wrote:
I don't know what your going on about here. The US has a better GP record in recent years than the entire cooperative of the worlds...
I don't know what your going on about here. The US has a better GP record in recent years than the entire cooperative of the worlds best riders from every country in the world.

Here are some statistics for you. There have been 4 GPs in the US in the last 3 years. 2 of the tracks nobody ever raced before. Between the 250 and 450s the US has won 5 of 8 possible overalls / 10 of 16 possible motos / 15 of 24 possible podiums.

Its even more impressive when you consider Tomac is the only top 10 450 guy we had last two years and in 2015 we had Cooper racing a 450 for the first time and Josh Grant. In the 250s we typically have one or two top five guys and that's it. Exept for this year of course when our 10th ranked 250 guy went 1-1.

Herlings put a smack down on everyone the last two weeks and it was awesome to watch. Herlings speed doesn't make the rest of the GP guys faster though. And it doesn't change the fact that the few US guys we entered in GPs over the last few years earned more overall wins, more moto wins, and more podiums than the entire make up of the best GP riders from around the globe.
Hut wrote:
Rambo! is that you?
SCR wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/04/212933/s1200_Rambo.jpg[/img] That's Right. Nothing Is Over.


That's Right. Nothing Is Over.
Fuk ya!! Makes me wanna ride! Hahaha
PressPassP
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PressPassP 9/4/2017 8:12pm
9/4/2017 8:12pm Edited Date/Time 9/4/2017 8:19pm
Anyone doubting the AMA series is pretty paranoid,the 250 class always has top prospects coming ingredients through,LL is quite a production line look at Cooper recently,the guy has already hit a podium finish,Sexton,Hampshire ,Cinciarullo Plessinger,Savatgy too could quite easily be the next big thing

Sure MX1 may well be deeper but that's probably the age rule packing it out earlier in riders careers,Herlings,Gajser,Febvre,Coldenhof, Anstie all up fairly recently,that's why at a time at the weekend the race behind the JH and AC duel saw 2nd to 12th place all in the 2.08-2.09 second laptimes,it's a tight field

The AMA has lost Dungey,Stewart,RV and Reed/Canard to a different extent in short sucession
jemcee
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jemcee 9/4/2017 9:28pm
9/4/2017 9:28pm
Harry Backmon wrote:
Why oh why, year after year, month after month, post after post must we go through this? What do you all get out of it? Is...
Why oh why, year after year, month after month, post after post must we go through this? What do you all get out of it? Is it just your entertainment? An MX message board and, "I'm gonna go mess with some 'Mericans" or "I'm gonna go mess with some Euros."

Why can't you all just admit that the top riders in Europe and the US are always gonna give each other a good race and the winner will be determined by the track conditions, the heat, the cold, the mud, the start, the crashes, individual health, etc.

I beg you all! STOP THE MADNESS!
Man I'm so with you on this!! I can't understand why there needs to be a 'better' series do people watch a race and think "I'm so glad these particular riders that I'm watching right now are the best in the world I wouldn't enjoy it as much otherwise"?.. It's NEVER been easier to watch and appreciate both!!

I won't even mention the constant need for comparison reeks of insecurity (from both sides)... oh wait I just did didn't I?
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philG 9/5/2017 12:20am
9/5/2017 12:20am
PressPassP wrote:
Anyone doubting the AMA series is pretty paranoid,the 250 class always has top prospects coming ingredients through,LL is quite a production line look at Cooper recently,the...
Anyone doubting the AMA series is pretty paranoid,the 250 class always has top prospects coming ingredients through,LL is quite a production line look at Cooper recently,the guy has already hit a podium finish,Sexton,Hampshire ,Cinciarullo Plessinger,Savatgy too could quite easily be the next big thing

Sure MX1 may well be deeper but that's probably the age rule packing it out earlier in riders careers,Herlings,Gajser,Febvre,Coldenhof, Anstie all up fairly recently,that's why at a time at the weekend the race behind the JH and AC duel saw 2nd to 12th place all in the 2.08-2.09 second laptimes,it's a tight field

The AMA has lost Dungey,Stewart,RV and Reed/Canard to a different extent in short sucession
But that's my point, none of those guys stand out in that field like they used to, they all got beat by a guy who had to come to GP's to get a ride, and the last 2 before that were JMart who royally sucks at trying to nail down an SX series.

There is no 250 guy who is a 'must hire' , just loads of 'on his day with a start ' guys.

AMA has lost its lustre, for the reasons you said, and I don't see the next group of riders to replace them , as obvious choices... Webb was the 'next big thing' and he hasn't delivered , for various reasons.

Would you have ever seen Bogle win 2 moto's and an overall in any other year .. not a chance.

You can only race the guys out there, I guess the fact that so many of the top guys went give others a chance to shine,



Turbojez
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Turbojez 9/5/2017 12:23am
9/5/2017 12:23am
AMA Nationals are doing just fine. I watch every single round just as I do with MXGP's. Is it wrong to love both series? lol
Jrewing
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Jrewing 9/5/2017 1:36am
9/5/2017 1:36am
Who would win these fights? Rambo or Dolph Lundgren then Norris v Van Damme.
In their prime btw

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KDXGarage
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KDXGarage 9/5/2017 3:03am
9/5/2017 3:03am
USA guys,let the non-USA guys have a moment in the sun. How often have they had the chance in the last 35 years? And it is "non-USA". It's almost never my country's racers against yours. It's the whole of MXGP.

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RG1 9/5/2017 3:08am
9/5/2017 3:08am
RG1 wrote:
Country with over 300 million people has lots more talent than countries a fraction of the size. Shock horror In all seriousness, you make some good...
Country with over 300 million people has lots more talent than countries a fraction of the size. Shock horror

In all seriousness, you make some good points. There was a lot of over reaction about the state of US moto over the last couple of weeks, when really, I don't think too much has changed, there is just more elite level European talents than there has been, maybe ever. It's great for the sport to have so much parity
Mit12 wrote:
RG1,
Are you saying that the US has more people than all of the rest of the world combined? Or was that sarcasm. Lol
No, of course not. OP was mentioning the fact that Netherlands, Belgium etc. would be screwed if they lost one rider, and the US has 6 or 7 guys who can step in. It's true, but you're talking about countries with a population of 10-15 million people compared to 320 million. It's not exactly rocket science to suggest that if you've got a lot more people, you're going to have more options when it comes to selecting people to represent your country
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jamma10 9/5/2017 3:38am
9/5/2017 3:38am Edited Date/Time 9/5/2017 3:40am
PressPassP wrote:
Anyone doubting the AMA series is pretty paranoid,the 250 class always has top prospects coming ingredients through,LL is quite a production line look at Cooper recently,the...
Anyone doubting the AMA series is pretty paranoid,the 250 class always has top prospects coming ingredients through,LL is quite a production line look at Cooper recently,the guy has already hit a podium finish,Sexton,Hampshire ,Cinciarullo Plessinger,Savatgy too could quite easily be the next big thing

Sure MX1 may well be deeper but that's probably the age rule packing it out earlier in riders careers,Herlings,Gajser,Febvre,Coldenhof, Anstie all up fairly recently,that's why at a time at the weekend the race behind the JH and AC duel saw 2nd to 12th place all in the 2.08-2.09 second laptimes,it's a tight field

The AMA has lost Dungey,Stewart,RV and Reed/Canard to a different extent in short sucession
philG wrote:
But that's my point, none of those guys stand out in that field like they used to, they all got beat by a guy who had...
But that's my point, none of those guys stand out in that field like they used to, they all got beat by a guy who had to come to GP's to get a ride, and the last 2 before that were JMart who royally sucks at trying to nail down an SX series.

There is no 250 guy who is a 'must hire' , just loads of 'on his day with a start ' guys.

AMA has lost its lustre, for the reasons you said, and I don't see the next group of riders to replace them , as obvious choices... Webb was the 'next big thing' and he hasn't delivered , for various reasons.

Would you have ever seen Bogle win 2 moto's and an overall in any other year .. not a chance.

You can only race the guys out there, I guess the fact that so many of the top guys went give others a chance to shine,



I'd argue that it only seems like the Outdoors has lost it's lustre because several guys like Roczen, Anderson, Tickle, Grant, Millsapps, Alessi are missing. Tomac has not been as dominant as past champions and while Barcia and Webb may not been firing this year you could say the same thing about Febvre, Nagl and Van Horebeek.

Maybe there isn't a 'must hire' 250 guy in America but I would still sign most of their top ten over the MX2 class riders. Seewer and Jonass are good, but they're not 'hot shots' destined for greatness. Prado, Olson and Mewse have shown potential, Covington is improving but erratic and Paturel - who a lot of people expected to be fighting for the title this season - has not kicked on as expected, so we're not exactly spoilt for talent ourselves at the moment. I don't know much about the next batch of EMX riders though.
philG
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philG 9/5/2017 3:40am
9/5/2017 3:40am
The other point that is overlooked id that Europe has to share 12 factory rides between all the countries.. Italy has 1 rider on a factory team in MXGP, GB has 1, Germans have 1 , Dutchies have 2, French have 3, Belgians have 3, Russia has 1 , and Lithuania has 1...

As has been said before, start comparing by States, and you have a better idea of the reality . I can drive across Holland in 45mins, its not big even for a State.

USA will be still be the only team with 3 factory guys on it even though a bunch of them were too busy / injured to come.

ehr400
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ehr400 9/5/2017 4:02am
9/5/2017 4:02am
Man, I am so glad there are so many Brits on here piggybacking other countries talents for their own feeling of accomplishment. SMH.
EnvyMedia 9/5/2017 4:10am
9/5/2017 4:10am
philG wrote:
Everts is right... there is no-one coming through like Stew or RV or even Dungey ,,, Hill won SX , Mookie won SX , both have...
Everts is right... there is no-one coming through like Stew or RV or even Dungey ,,, Hill won SX , Mookie won SX , both have been around a long time now, Osborne won outdoors and he is older than Dungey.

There are lots of guys who are all ' ok' .. Sexton, Smith, Plessinger, Harrison, etc, Cianciarulo has been about for ages and still not fired on all cylinders, and Forkner has been a bit meh as well. Both the Martin boys are old as the hills too, but there is no phenom in the wings,

All talented guys, no doubt , but who is the guy now that was the AC of his year , or the RV of his year... we all knew these guys were coming and were going to stamp their authority on the job, i dont see that guy right now.


We have Prado and Lawrence , and maybe Mewse if he can get a handle on it, and possibly Pootjes(who has had a tough time this year) , who are going to have to take it to Jonass next year, of those i rate Prado highly, considering he is still in school.

As for the big class.... Tomac was struggling in qualifying , 13th place or close to , in AMA thats Henry Miller teritory, you just cant compare the 2 right now, simply because so many guys are SX only, waiting for an offer that is never going to come, or in Canada.. and 250 guys just dont move up.

Imagine the outdoors with Mookie(for 5 laps) Millsaps, Weimer , Pourcel , Alessi, even Goerke , plus both Martins, Osborne, Canard , and Dungey , with Roczen .. and on on form Webb.. and Reed. Thats a field to match the GP boys all the way down to 15th easy , which is how it used to be, the fact that it isnt means guys can pretty much phone in a top 10 , whereas before it was a push to do it.


I Feel that Tomac has been cut a break this year , Roczen going out and Dungey quitting has made his year a lot easier, i could see him never winning one if they were both riding, not that he isnt fast enough, just that he is has off days that those 2 would have punished him for,
You could say he did them a favour when he grenaded himself , after RV hung it up, maybe he was too eager to be 'next'..

What we saw from Cairoli and Herlings yesterday was a guy who wants to win by winning, and by signing a 2 year deal , he is going to stand up and make Herlings win it next year.


While i love the fact Marv and Roczen give us the chance to cheer in the AMA , i really wished they were all here, that would be insane.
But then, who's the coming through in the GP's? Herlings has been shitting all over the MX2 class since 2012 and it looks like we're in for the same in MXGP. Nobody saw Febvre and Gajser coming who were also just "ok" in MX2.

Really if you think about it, the stand out guys from Europe are either dominating the class right now (Cairoli, Herlings) or moved to AMA (Musquin, Roczen, Pourcel).
Thisusernameisavailable 9/5/2017 4:13am
9/5/2017 4:13am
I see two common trains of thought- AMA SERIES vs. the MXGP SERIES and the (less educated) USA RIDERS vs. Euro RIDERS.

There is an argument for SERIES vs. SERIES, but theres plenty of numbskulls here who still insist American RIDERS are stronger than Euro, which simply isn't the case.

If you're going RIDERS vs RIDERS, then you cannot claim Roczen, Marvin or Dean. So, try to picture this past outdoors series without MM or DW. How strong does it look then?

Or, lets fast forward to SX 2018, it looks as if ET3 is favourite. Let's just say Roczen & Marvin decide to upsticks and move back to Europe... Who brings the challenge to ET then? Doesn't look so strong does it..?

Furthermore- At Ironman, JH was comfortably able to come from last to first in that second moto. Whilst ET3 wasn't able to progress further than 12th last saturday. As well as in the first moto on Sunday, JH & AC were able to progress from 12-15th on the first lap to 2 & 3rd.

JT said himself- "I question whether ET would have been able to climb through to 2nd if he'd gotten the start that JH had..

ET3 is strong. He's up there with the best. The others, not so much.
RG1
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RG1 9/5/2017 5:16am
9/5/2017 5:16am Edited Date/Time 9/5/2017 5:16am
philG wrote:
Everts is right... there is no-one coming through like Stew or RV or even Dungey ,,, Hill won SX , Mookie won SX , both have...
Everts is right... there is no-one coming through like Stew or RV or even Dungey ,,, Hill won SX , Mookie won SX , both have been around a long time now, Osborne won outdoors and he is older than Dungey.

There are lots of guys who are all ' ok' .. Sexton, Smith, Plessinger, Harrison, etc, Cianciarulo has been about for ages and still not fired on all cylinders, and Forkner has been a bit meh as well. Both the Martin boys are old as the hills too, but there is no phenom in the wings,

All talented guys, no doubt , but who is the guy now that was the AC of his year , or the RV of his year... we all knew these guys were coming and were going to stamp their authority on the job, i dont see that guy right now.


We have Prado and Lawrence , and maybe Mewse if he can get a handle on it, and possibly Pootjes(who has had a tough time this year) , who are going to have to take it to Jonass next year, of those i rate Prado highly, considering he is still in school.

As for the big class.... Tomac was struggling in qualifying , 13th place or close to , in AMA thats Henry Miller teritory, you just cant compare the 2 right now, simply because so many guys are SX only, waiting for an offer that is never going to come, or in Canada.. and 250 guys just dont move up.

Imagine the outdoors with Mookie(for 5 laps) Millsaps, Weimer , Pourcel , Alessi, even Goerke , plus both Martins, Osborne, Canard , and Dungey , with Roczen .. and on on form Webb.. and Reed. Thats a field to match the GP boys all the way down to 15th easy , which is how it used to be, the fact that it isnt means guys can pretty much phone in a top 10 , whereas before it was a push to do it.


I Feel that Tomac has been cut a break this year , Roczen going out and Dungey quitting has made his year a lot easier, i could see him never winning one if they were both riding, not that he isnt fast enough, just that he is has off days that those 2 would have punished him for,
You could say he did them a favour when he grenaded himself , after RV hung it up, maybe he was too eager to be 'next'..

What we saw from Cairoli and Herlings yesterday was a guy who wants to win by winning, and by signing a 2 year deal , he is going to stand up and make Herlings win it next year.


While i love the fact Marv and Roczen give us the chance to cheer in the AMA , i really wished they were all here, that would be insane.
EnvyMedia wrote:
But then, who's the coming through in the GP's? Herlings has been shitting all over the MX2 class since 2012 and it looks like we're in...
But then, who's the coming through in the GP's? Herlings has been shitting all over the MX2 class since 2012 and it looks like we're in for the same in MXGP. Nobody saw Febvre and Gajser coming who were also just "ok" in MX2.

Really if you think about it, the stand out guys from Europe are either dominating the class right now (Cairoli, Herlings) or moved to AMA (Musquin, Roczen, Pourcel).
I don't think you need to necessarily look at MX2 though. Gajser isn't even 21 yet and is a double world champion, and then there's Jasikonis who is 19 and has a couple of Moto podiums and an overall podium to his name in the top class. Both of those guys are younger than the vast majority of riders at the front of the 250 class in the US. I would say there are definitely guys coming through in Europe. We maybe don't notice it because they already came through to a certain extent, but they're only going to get better.

jamma10
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jamma10 9/5/2017 5:34am
9/5/2017 5:34am
Wow, I didnt realise Jasikonis was only 19!
Prejump
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Prejump 9/5/2017 5:43am
9/5/2017 5:43am Edited Date/Time 9/5/2017 5:44am
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
I see two common trains of thought- AMA SERIES vs. the MXGP SERIES and the (less educated) USA RIDERS vs. Euro RIDERS. There is an argument...
I see two common trains of thought- AMA SERIES vs. the MXGP SERIES and the (less educated) USA RIDERS vs. Euro RIDERS.

There is an argument for SERIES vs. SERIES, but theres plenty of numbskulls here who still insist American RIDERS are stronger than Euro, which simply isn't the case.

If you're going RIDERS vs RIDERS, then you cannot claim Roczen, Marvin or Dean. So, try to picture this past outdoors series without MM or DW. How strong does it look then?

Or, lets fast forward to SX 2018, it looks as if ET3 is favourite. Let's just say Roczen & Marvin decide to upsticks and move back to Europe... Who brings the challenge to ET then? Doesn't look so strong does it..?

Furthermore- At Ironman, JH was comfortably able to come from last to first in that second moto. Whilst ET3 wasn't able to progress further than 12th last saturday. As well as in the first moto on Sunday, JH & AC were able to progress from 12-15th on the first lap to 2 & 3rd.

JT said himself- "I question whether ET would have been able to climb through to 2nd if he'd gotten the start that JH had..

ET3 is strong. He's up there with the best. The others, not so much.
Agree with that. Because riders like Bogle, Peick, Seely, are top 10 in US nats too many think they are world class & would do that anywhere.

Truth is ET is way faster then most US riders, Bagget & Anderson can be fast but not consistently. After that the rest would be outside top 15 MXGP.

ET who is a potential world champion spending his career racing against a couple top riders then a bunch of national class guys is a waste.

I would love to see what Bagget could do if he gave SX the finger, spent the winter smashing the deep sand tracks of Europe, then went for a world title. I think there is another level inside Bagget outdoors if he had a chance to prepare right.
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Park Boys 9/5/2017 6:31am
9/5/2017 6:31am
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
I see two common trains of thought- AMA SERIES vs. the MXGP SERIES and the (less educated) USA RIDERS vs. Euro RIDERS. There is an argument...
I see two common trains of thought- AMA SERIES vs. the MXGP SERIES and the (less educated) USA RIDERS vs. Euro RIDERS.

There is an argument for SERIES vs. SERIES, but theres plenty of numbskulls here who still insist American RIDERS are stronger than Euro, which simply isn't the case.

If you're going RIDERS vs RIDERS, then you cannot claim Roczen, Marvin or Dean. So, try to picture this past outdoors series without MM or DW. How strong does it look then?

Or, lets fast forward to SX 2018, it looks as if ET3 is favourite. Let's just say Roczen & Marvin decide to upsticks and move back to Europe... Who brings the challenge to ET then? Doesn't look so strong does it..?

Furthermore- At Ironman, JH was comfortably able to come from last to first in that second moto. Whilst ET3 wasn't able to progress further than 12th last saturday. As well as in the first moto on Sunday, JH & AC were able to progress from 12-15th on the first lap to 2 & 3rd.

JT said himself- "I question whether ET would have been able to climb through to 2nd if he'd gotten the start that JH had..

ET3 is strong. He's up there with the best. The others, not so much.
JMB 1989. Trying to say imagine the AMAs without Euros is illogical. The Frenchman started a trend. AMA might be an "American" series but its had consistent international top talent for nearly 30 years and it's not just Euros. South Africans, New Zealand and Austrialla to name a few. Who cares about just Eli. Herlings is the only one to beat him in a overall racing the GPs on 450s. I know the USGP is a hard comparison being in the USA but only one of the tracks did he have an advantge on and it showed. The 2009,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 and most likely 17 FIM world MXGP champs have never beat him for an overall. The reason I say this is to point out that more American riders beat him this year in a couple race span than world champions have. I'm I saying someone like Bagget is better than #Gofastereatpasta? No, not at all. But most of the people out there and I'm one of them though Eli would smoke these guys this year and he didn't and we are having a hard time giving these guys respect cause we all assume something is wrong with Eli. Anderson and Bagget are no joke. Tomac,Anderson and Bagget might not be as strong as RV,RD and Stew but when they are healthy you can't just assume they will get beat.

Why would you bring up SX? 8 of the 10 best in the world are American. If they went home, there talent would be wasted and out of a field of 22, 2 guys would be gone. The only undebatable thing on this forum is that America is better than the rest of the world combined at SX. Don't know why you brought that into it.
RichardLoots 9/5/2017 6:43am
9/5/2017 6:43am
dude , you need to find a hobby LaughingLaughing the way you always seem to get facts turn your way is awesome and takes some skill and i see why youre a big Cairoli fan , he is good at it too .. .

Post a reply to: AMA Nationals sub par? Lets take a look.