AMA Nationals sub par? Lets take a look.

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9/4/2017 11:10 AM

The Sky is falling. The sky is falling. First and foremost to the Americans out there, saying the Euros are fast. No shit, huh? I could of swore a German won the 14 and 16 Outdoor titles while standing through the corners and riding a gear higher going faster than everyone while using less energy but he must be from Florida cause he speaks good English right?

People seem to think our depth is at a all time low. Tomac finally lost his first GP moto and finshed 3rd... how horrible.
Was out rode in moto 2 by 84 and 222, but during the nationals we saw him not be able to catch Anderson, Bagget and Bogle. We saw him get on Marvins back wheel only to be pulled away from and we watched Bagget catch him from behind a few times and these we all races where he was at a good level. Watch Unadilla and plenty of guys got him. The point of this is not to rag on Tomac but its to show the depth is actually not that bad and obviously Roczen never raced him and I'm positive Roczens injury was the final nail in the coffin for Dungey and he retired early before the nationals. Now that nationals are done you cant say Dungey anymore as he was always gonna be done after the nationals.

The GP's are arguably at an all time high but the depth is over stated I watch every GP and have since 2010 so Im not just pulling stuff out of thin air but Cairoli, Herlings and Gasjer have done most of the winning and outside of Desalle they are the only guys with more than two moto wins and Desalles was in a sense gifted to him when Febvre hit Herlings while lapping him. So it would have been Febvre with two moto wins and thats the point im making those are the big four and if one of those guys dosen't win there is usually a reason. That is certainly not a knock on the GP's its just the way it is. Usually most of the winning is done by a few guys that's the way it has always been. That being said Paulin is always a threat for an odd moto win here and there like DeSalle.

Most of these arguments about AMA vs GPs always leave out one factor. AMA vs GPs is almost treated like the Des Nations in the fact that Roczen and Musquin usually are mentioned for the European side AKA GPs where in fact they race the AMA series and have for a long time which always makes these debates odd. They are top riders from Europe but they race in the states.

Some Stats just for the hell of it, I dont know what they prove but I have always liked stats.
Tomac has won 5 out 6 MXGP motos and 2 out of 3 overalls and finished second in the other. In the Nationals a series he knows in and out he has won 9 of the 34 nationals entered and 19 out of 68 motos. So for all the Tomac bashing it appears he wins GPs easier it seems. Now to be unbiased here the German last year won 9 of 12 nationals and 20 of 24 motos and we all know he should have won Glen Helen but his bike cost him one moto win and a O/A. His 2016 season alone has statistically been better than Tomacs career. Also Herlings in head to head has the advantage over Tomac but Tomac has an advantage over AC and Gasjer and Febvre have never beat him.

The AMA is not as strong as it was in 14 when the series had RV,RD,Stew,Canard and Tomac plus Roczen and Reed but the 450 class still has the Americans of Tomac,Anderson,Bagget,Webb,Grant,Seely,Bogle,Pieck,Barcia(who knows what his deal is)Osburne is moving up and thats just 10 Americans and I missed some and Of course Roczen, Musquin and Wilson as a few great imports. I read Everts interview where he said it seems America doesn't have much coming up and I thought that was pretty funny considering at the GP Americans did pretty good and none of the ones racing were are so called "the" guys. Plus AMA has Both Martins,Savagty,AC,Plessinger, Forkner, Cooper and there is always a fleet of fast guys coming up every year. Bakerfield kids are killing it at Lorettas. Americans are winning in EMX250 and for the first time in awhile we have an American who can win the MX2 title next year. Looking at Des Nations teams if the Netherlands or Italy lose one guy they would most likely struggle to make top 5. As strong as France is with top End Talent, They have 5 guys and maybe Tixer depending on the day but after that there is a huge drop off after that. If Belgium loses DeSalle there team is in rough shape. If GB would have lost Max it would have hurt although the Great Scott is Great but after that they have a big drop off as well. America can have literally 6-7 guys bow out or be hurt and still have a chance of winning, not favorites but certainly a chance. What a sub par Motocross country.

If this is the USA/AMA at its "worst' I wonder what it will look like at its best?



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9/4/2017 11:14 AM

Let it go...

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9/4/2017 11:17 AM

I like tequila in summertime

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9/4/2017 11:19 AM

hillbilly wrote:

I like tequila in summertime

Fuck me, hillbilly`s back!!!!

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9/4/2017 11:34 AM

Hey Hibly ! ! ! Sup ole'man ?!?

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9/4/2017 11:37 AM

Very well said, thanks

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9/4/2017 11:48 AM

Effin Eh!

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9/4/2017 12:03 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/4/2017 12:15 PM

you forgot about the fastest laps wink and i agree , its not that bad at all , with a bit of luck USA could have won a few MXON races last 5 years .. there are so much variables why a rider performs well or doesnt its almost impossible to compare without a complete series. Thats why i stick with my opinion , top AMA and Top MXGP can all win on a day on a track , levels are pretty even in 450 but i do think MXGP at the moment has more depth .TOP 13 in current MXGP have all had at least a podium .. not in MX2 , with Herlings,Ferrandis and Anstie moving up we have to wait for next gen riders like Prado ,TKO ,Lawrence etc ..

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the funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it

9/4/2017 12:16 PM

Why oh why, year after year, month after month, post after post must we go through this? What do you all get out of it? Is it just your entertainment? An MX message board and, "I'm gonna go mess with some 'Mericans" or "I'm gonna go mess with some Euros."

Why can't you all just admit that the top riders in Europe and the US are always gonna give each other a good race and the winner will be determined by the track conditions, the heat, the cold, the mud, the start, the crashes, individual health, etc.

I beg you all! STOP THE MADNESS!

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9/4/2017 12:21 PM

Harry Backmon wrote:

Why oh why, year after year, month after month, post after post must we go through this? What do you all get out of it? Is it just your entertainment? An MX message board and, "I'm gonna go mess with some 'Mericans" or "I'm gonna go mess with some Euros."

Why can't you all just admit that the top riders in Europe and the US are always gonna give each other a good race and the winner will be determined by the track conditions, the heat, the cold, the mud, the start, the crashes, individual health, etc.

I beg you all! STOP THE MADNESS!

totally agree , bit will never happen wink

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the funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it

9/4/2017 12:23 PM

Park Boys wrote:

The Sky is falling. The sky is falling. First and foremost to the Americans out there, saying the Euros are fast. No shit, huh? I could of swore a German won the 14 and 16 Outdoor titles while standing through the corners and riding a gear higher going faster than everyone while using less energy but he must be from Florida cause he speaks good English right?

People seem to think our depth is at a all time low. Tomac finally lost his first GP moto and finshed 3rd... how horrible.
Was out rode in moto 2 by 84 and 222, but during the nationals we saw him not be able to catch Anderson, Bagget and Bogle. We saw him get on Marvins back wheel only to be pulled away from and we watched Bagget catch him from behind a few times and these we all races where he was at a good level. Watch Unadilla and plenty of guys got him. The point of this is not to rag on Tomac but its to show the depth is actually not that bad and obviously Roczen never raced him and I'm positive Roczens injury was the final nail in the coffin for Dungey and he retired early before the nationals. Now that nationals are done you cant say Dungey anymore as he was always gonna be done after the nationals.

The GP's are arguably at an all time high but the depth is over stated I watch every GP and have since 2010 so Im not just pulling stuff out of thin air but Cairoli, Herlings and Gasjer have done most of the winning and outside of Desalle they are the only guys with more than two moto wins and Desalles was in a sense gifted to him when Febvre hit Herlings while lapping him. So it would have been Febvre with two moto wins and thats the point im making those are the big four and if one of those guys dosen't win there is usually a reason. That is certainly not a knock on the GP's its just the way it is. Usually most of the winning is done by a few guys that's the way it has always been. That being said Paulin is always a threat for an odd moto win here and there like DeSalle.

Most of these arguments about AMA vs GPs always leave out one factor. AMA vs GPs is almost treated like the Des Nations in the fact that Roczen and Musquin usually are mentioned for the European side AKA GPs where in fact they race the AMA series and have for a long time which always makes these debates odd. They are top riders from Europe but they race in the states.

Some Stats just for the hell of it, I dont know what they prove but I have always liked stats.
Tomac has won 5 out 6 MXGP motos and 2 out of 3 overalls and finished second in the other. In the Nationals a series he knows in and out he has won 9 of the 34 nationals entered and 19 out of 68 motos. So for all the Tomac bashing it appears he wins GPs easier it seems. Now to be unbiased here the German last year won 9 of 12 nationals and 20 of 24 motos and we all know he should have won Glen Helen but his bike cost him one moto win and a O/A. His 2016 season alone has statistically been better than Tomacs career. Also Herlings in head to head has the advantage over Tomac but Tomac has an advantage over AC and Gasjer and Febvre have never beat him.

The AMA is not as strong as it was in 14 when the series had RV,RD,Stew,Canard and Tomac plus Roczen and Reed but the 450 class still has the Americans of Tomac,Anderson,Bagget,Webb,Grant,Seely,Bogle,Pieck,Barcia(who knows what his deal is)Osburne is moving up and thats just 10 Americans and I missed some and Of course Roczen, Musquin and Wilson as a few great imports. I read Everts interview where he said it seems America doesn't have much coming up and I thought that was pretty funny considering at the GP Americans did pretty good and none of the ones racing were are so called "the" guys. Plus AMA has Both Martins,Savagty,AC,Plessinger, Forkner, Cooper and there is always a fleet of fast guys coming up every year. Bakerfield kids are killing it at Lorettas. Americans are winning in EMX250 and for the first time in awhile we have an American who can win the MX2 title next year. Looking at Des Nations teams if the Netherlands or Italy lose one guy they would most likely struggle to make top 5. As strong as France is with top End Talent, They have 5 guys and maybe Tixer depending on the day but after that there is a huge drop off after that. If Belgium loses DeSalle there team is in rough shape. If GB would have lost Max it would have hurt although the Great Scott is Great but after that they have a big drop off as well. America can have literally 6-7 guys bow out or be hurt and still have a chance of winning, not favorites but certainly a chance. What a sub par Motocross country.

If this is the USA/AMA at its "worst' I wonder what it will look like at its best?



Took a little break ( yeah I'm freakin' working on Labor day! )....and I think that was a really good write up. Puts a lot into perspective. A lot of truth in what you just wrote PB. Thanks for taking the time to type it all up.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

9/4/2017 12:26 PM

Harry Backmon wrote:

Why oh why, year after year, month after month, post after post must we go through this? What do you all get out of it? Is it just your entertainment? An MX message board and, "I'm gonna go mess with some 'Mericans" or "I'm gonna go mess with some Euros."

Why can't you all just admit that the top riders in Europe and the US are always gonna give each other a good race and the winner will be determined by the track conditions, the heat, the cold, the mud, the start, the crashes, individual health, etc.

I beg you all! STOP THE MADNESS!

Sorry harry broPhoto

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9/4/2017 12:36 PM

Why can't some people just enjoy the racing and accept that both series have talented riders? How long does this constant dick measuring contest need to keeping on for?

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9/4/2017 12:38 PM

Besides the fact....I love it when people try and debate actual stats. And PB is really good at layin' RM's down!

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

9/4/2017 12:41 PM

sixtwentyeight wrote:

Why can't some people just enjoy the racing and accept that both series have talented riders? How long does this constant dick measuring contest need to keeping on for?

It will never stop. Just like every sport on planet earth.....there will always be discussions about it. The exact same thing happens when we just talk about certain riders in a series. Not everyone agrees with everyone else.

That's what message boards like this are here for. To talk about it.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

9/4/2017 12:46 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/4/2017 1:03 PM

Country with over 300 million people has lots more talent than countries a fraction of the size. Shock horror

In all seriousness, you make some good points. There was a lot of over reaction about the state of US moto over the last couple of weeks, when really, I don't think too much has changed, there is just more elite level European talents than there has been, maybe ever. It's great for the sport to have so much parity

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9/4/2017 12:51 PM

I'm with John Rambo!

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9/4/2017 1:07 PM

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9/4/2017 1:07 PM

Everts is right... there is no-one coming through like Stew or RV or even Dungey ,,, Hill won SX , Mookie won SX , both have been around a long time now, Osborne won outdoors and he is older than Dungey.

There are lots of guys who are all ' ok' .. Sexton, Smith, Plessinger, Harrison, etc, Cianciarulo has been about for ages and still not fired on all cylinders, and Forkner has been a bit meh as well. Both the Martin boys are old as the hills too, but there is no phenom in the wings,

All talented guys, no doubt , but who is the guy now that was the AC of his year , or the RV of his year... we all knew these guys were coming and were going to stamp their authority on the job, i dont see that guy right now.


We have Prado and Lawrence , and maybe Mewse if he can get a handle on it, and possibly Pootjes(who has had a tough time this year) , who are going to have to take it to Jonass next year, of those i rate Prado highly, considering he is still in school.

As for the big class.... Tomac was struggling in qualifying , 13th place or close to , in AMA thats Henry Miller teritory, you just cant compare the 2 right now, simply because so many guys are SX only, waiting for an offer that is never going to come, or in Canada.. and 250 guys just dont move up.

Imagine the outdoors with Mookie(for 5 laps) Millsaps, Weimer , Pourcel , Alessi, even Goerke , plus both Martins, Osborne, Canard , and Dungey , with Roczen .. and on on form Webb.. and Reed. Thats a field to match the GP boys all the way down to 15th easy , which is how it used to be, the fact that it isnt means guys can pretty much phone in a top 10 , whereas before it was a push to do it.


I Feel that Tomac has been cut a break this year , Roczen going out and Dungey quitting has made his year a lot easier, i could see him never winning one if they were both riding, not that he isnt fast enough, just that he is has off days that those 2 would have punished him for,
You could say he did them a favour when he grenaded himself , after RV hung it up, maybe he was too eager to be 'next'..

What we saw from Cairoli and Herlings yesterday was a guy who wants to win by winning, and by signing a 2 year deal , he is going to stand up and make Herlings win it next year.


While i love the fact Marv and Roczen give us the chance to cheer in the AMA , i really wished they were all here, that would be insane.

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9/4/2017 1:11 PM

Park Boys wrote:

The Sky is falling. The sky is falling. First and foremost to the Americans out there, saying the Euros are fast. No shit, huh? I could of swore a German won the 14 and 16 Outdoor titles while standing through the corners and riding a gear higher going faster than everyone while using less energy but he must be from Florida cause he speaks good English right?

People seem to think our depth is at a all time low. Tomac finally lost his first GP moto and finshed 3rd... how horrible.
Was out rode in moto 2 by 84 and 222, but during the nationals we saw him not be able to catch Anderson, Bagget and Bogle. We saw him get on Marvins back wheel only to be pulled away from and we watched Bagget catch him from behind a few times and these we all races where he was at a good level. Watch Unadilla and plenty of guys got him. The point of this is not to rag on Tomac but its to show the depth is actually not that bad and obviously Roczen never raced him and I'm positive Roczens injury was the final nail in the coffin for Dungey and he retired early before the nationals. Now that nationals are done you cant say Dungey anymore as he was always gonna be done after the nationals.

The GP's are arguably at an all time high but the depth is over stated I watch every GP and have since 2010 so Im not just pulling stuff out of thin air but Cairoli, Herlings and Gasjer have done most of the winning and outside of Desalle they are the only guys with more than two moto wins and Desalles was in a sense gifted to him when Febvre hit Herlings while lapping him. So it would have been Febvre with two moto wins and thats the point im making those are the big four and if one of those guys dosen't win there is usually a reason. That is certainly not a knock on the GP's its just the way it is. Usually most of the winning is done by a few guys that's the way it has always been. That being said Paulin is always a threat for an odd moto win here and there like DeSalle.

Most of these arguments about AMA vs GPs always leave out one factor. AMA vs GPs is almost treated like the Des Nations in the fact that Roczen and Musquin usually are mentioned for the European side AKA GPs where in fact they race the AMA series and have for a long time which always makes these debates odd. They are top riders from Europe but they race in the states.

Some Stats just for the hell of it, I dont know what they prove but I have always liked stats.
Tomac has won 5 out 6 MXGP motos and 2 out of 3 overalls and finished second in the other. In the Nationals a series he knows in and out he has won 9 of the 34 nationals entered and 19 out of 68 motos. So for all the Tomac bashing it appears he wins GPs easier it seems. Now to be unbiased here the German last year won 9 of 12 nationals and 20 of 24 motos and we all know he should have won Glen Helen but his bike cost him one moto win and a O/A. His 2016 season alone has statistically been better than Tomacs career. Also Herlings in head to head has the advantage over Tomac but Tomac has an advantage over AC and Gasjer and Febvre have never beat him.

The AMA is not as strong as it was in 14 when the series had RV,RD,Stew,Canard and Tomac plus Roczen and Reed but the 450 class still has the Americans of Tomac,Anderson,Bagget,Webb,Grant,Seely,Bogle,Pieck,Barcia(who knows what his deal is)Osburne is moving up and thats just 10 Americans and I missed some and Of course Roczen, Musquin and Wilson as a few great imports. I read Everts interview where he said it seems America doesn't have much coming up and I thought that was pretty funny considering at the GP Americans did pretty good and none of the ones racing were are so called "the" guys. Plus AMA has Both Martins,Savagty,AC,Plessinger, Forkner, Cooper and there is always a fleet of fast guys coming up every year. Bakerfield kids are killing it at Lorettas. Americans are winning in EMX250 and for the first time in awhile we have an American who can win the MX2 title next year. Looking at Des Nations teams if the Netherlands or Italy lose one guy they would most likely struggle to make top 5. As strong as France is with top End Talent, They have 5 guys and maybe Tixer depending on the day but after that there is a huge drop off after that. If Belgium loses DeSalle there team is in rough shape. If GB would have lost Max it would have hurt although the Great Scott is Great but after that they have a big drop off as well. America can have literally 6-7 guys bow out or be hurt and still have a chance of winning, not favorites but certainly a chance. What a sub par Motocross country.

If this is the USA/AMA at its "worst' I wonder what it will look like at its best?



Great write up!

To all of those asking for us to stop debating who is better, THIS IS WHAT WE DO!!!! Am I faster than this guy? Is he faster than him? Is my bike better? Is his bike better? If you want to end the questions/debate, get off of public forums and start your own! Instead of races, have kumbaya fests while you sit around, eating marshmallows. Some of us might join you. But we will probably debate who is a better singer and who is the best at making marshmallows.

We are competitive. Why we like motocross and watch races.

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In an infinite universe, anything is possible!

9/4/2017 1:30 PM

KMC440 wrote:

Hey Hibly ! ! ! Sup ole'man ?!?

Just gettin back from a trip to hell

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9/4/2017 1:41 PM

hillbilly wrote:

Just gettin back from a trip to hell

Welcome back, HB. Like Mark Twain said, "Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company".

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9/4/2017 1:46 PM

philG wrote:

Everts is right... there is no-one coming through like Stew or RV or even Dungey ,,, Hill won SX , Mookie won SX , both have been around a long time now, Osborne won outdoors and he is older than Dungey.

There are lots of guys who are all ' ok' .. Sexton, Smith, Plessinger, Harrison, etc, Cianciarulo has been about for ages and still not fired on all cylinders, and Forkner has been a bit meh as well. Both the Martin boys are old as the hills too, but there is no phenom in the wings,

All talented guys, no doubt , but who is the guy now that was the AC of his year , or the RV of his year... we all knew these guys were coming and were going to stamp their authority on the job, i dont see that guy right now.


We have Prado and Lawrence , and maybe Mewse if he can get a handle on it, and possibly Pootjes(who has had a tough time this year) , who are going to have to take it to Jonass next year, of those i rate Prado highly, considering he is still in school.

As for the big class.... Tomac was struggling in qualifying , 13th place or close to , in AMA thats Henry Miller teritory, you just cant compare the 2 right now, simply because so many guys are SX only, waiting for an offer that is never going to come, or in Canada.. and 250 guys just dont move up.

Imagine the outdoors with Mookie(for 5 laps) Millsaps, Weimer , Pourcel , Alessi, even Goerke , plus both Martins, Osborne, Canard , and Dungey , with Roczen .. and on on form Webb.. and Reed. Thats a field to match the GP boys all the way down to 15th easy , which is how it used to be, the fact that it isnt means guys can pretty much phone in a top 10 , whereas before it was a push to do it.


I Feel that Tomac has been cut a break this year , Roczen going out and Dungey quitting has made his year a lot easier, i could see him never winning one if they were both riding, not that he isnt fast enough, just that he is has off days that those 2 would have punished him for,
You could say he did them a favour when he grenaded himself , after RV hung it up, maybe he was too eager to be 'next'..

What we saw from Cairoli and Herlings yesterday was a guy who wants to win by winning, and by signing a 2 year deal , he is going to stand up and make Herlings win it next year.


While i love the fact Marv and Roczen give us the chance to cheer in the AMA , i really wished they were all here, that would be insane.

Photo
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9/4/2017 1:56 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/4/2017 1:59 PM

I think the US are great at bigging there riders up. Making them more then they are, a few fast moto's & they are world class.

The US has the same style tracks prepped in the same way. They dont travel to different countries & face the challenges that go with it.

I bet many US fans didnt think much of Covington, yet he showed you he's being developing world class speed away from states. Only your fastest acclimatized local boy from AMA beat him.

I know you all say RV didnt care when he tried MXGP, of course he did racers have huge ego's. He just couldnt cut it internationally.

The MXGP is just going to get stronger, more nations are producing fast riders that are willing to travel.

IMO Tomac wining a national series mostly full of privateers is sandbagging. He should man up & bring US a real world title.

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9/4/2017 2:01 PM

Prejump wrote:

I think the US are great at bigging there riders up. Making them more then they are, a few fast moto's & they are world class.

The US has the same style tracks prepped in the same way. They dont travel to different countries & face the challenges that go with it.

I bet many US fans didnt think much of Covington, yet he showed you he's being developing world class speed away from states. Only your fastest acclimatized local boy from AMA beat him.

I know you all say RV didnt care when he tried MXGP, of course he did racers have huge ego's. He just couldnt cut it internationally.

The MXGP is just going to get stronger, more nations are producing fast riders that are willing to travel.

IMO Tomac wining a national series mostly full of privateers is sandbagging. He should man up & bring US a real world title.

Photo
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9/4/2017 2:04 PM

and a miss.... w00t

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9/4/2017 2:12 PM

Good post Park Boys. The overreaction to Ironman was ridiculous, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that a lot of Americans only really care about who wins while writing virtually everything else off as irrelevant. That's why years of back to back MXdN victories painted a somewhat distorted picture in the minds of many fans who decided to shut up shop and ignore the GPs entirely.

Maybe that winners mindset is a trait to be admired, I don't know. But it sure throws the cat amongst the pigeons when the unexpected happens.

(those gifs are brilliant btw laughing )

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Jeff Emigs Keys to the Race:
1. Get a good start
2. Don't crash

9/4/2017 2:30 PM

Park Boys wrote:

The Sky is falling. The sky is falling. First and foremost to the Americans out there, saying the Euros are fast. No shit, huh? I could of swore a German won the 14 and 16 Outdoor titles while standing through the corners and riding a gear higher going faster than everyone while using less energy but he must be from Florida cause he speaks good English right?

People seem to think our depth is at a all time low. Tomac finally lost his first GP moto and finshed 3rd... how horrible.
Was out rode in moto 2 by 84 and 222, but during the nationals we saw him not be able to catch Anderson, Bagget and Bogle. We saw him get on Marvins back wheel only to be pulled away from and we watched Bagget catch him from behind a few times and these we all races where he was at a good level. Watch Unadilla and plenty of guys got him. The point of this is not to rag on Tomac but its to show the depth is actually not that bad and obviously Roczen never raced him and I'm positive Roczens injury was the final nail in the coffin for Dungey and he retired early before the nationals. Now that nationals are done you cant say Dungey anymore as he was always gonna be done after the nationals.

The GP's are arguably at an all time high but the depth is over stated I watch every GP and have since 2010 so Im not just pulling stuff out of thin air but Cairoli, Herlings and Gasjer have done most of the winning and outside of Desalle they are the only guys with more than two moto wins and Desalles was in a sense gifted to him when Febvre hit Herlings while lapping him. So it would have been Febvre with two moto wins and thats the point im making those are the big four and if one of those guys dosen't win there is usually a reason. That is certainly not a knock on the GP's its just the way it is. Usually most of the winning is done by a few guys that's the way it has always been. That being said Paulin is always a threat for an odd moto win here and there like DeSalle.

Most of these arguments about AMA vs GPs always leave out one factor. AMA vs GPs is almost treated like the Des Nations in the fact that Roczen and Musquin usually are mentioned for the European side AKA GPs where in fact they race the AMA series and have for a long time which always makes these debates odd. They are top riders from Europe but they race in the states.

Some Stats just for the hell of it, I dont know what they prove but I have always liked stats.
Tomac has won 5 out 6 MXGP motos and 2 out of 3 overalls and finished second in the other. In the Nationals a series he knows in and out he has won 9 of the 34 nationals entered and 19 out of 68 motos. So for all the Tomac bashing it appears he wins GPs easier it seems. Now to be unbiased here the German last year won 9 of 12 nationals and 20 of 24 motos and we all know he should have won Glen Helen but his bike cost him one moto win and a O/A. His 2016 season alone has statistically been better than Tomacs career. Also Herlings in head to head has the advantage over Tomac but Tomac has an advantage over AC and Gasjer and Febvre have never beat him.

The AMA is not as strong as it was in 14 when the series had RV,RD,Stew,Canard and Tomac plus Roczen and Reed but the 450 class still has the Americans of Tomac,Anderson,Bagget,Webb,Grant,Seely,Bogle,Pieck,Barcia(who knows what his deal is)Osburne is moving up and thats just 10 Americans and I missed some and Of course Roczen, Musquin and Wilson as a few great imports. I read Everts interview where he said it seems America doesn't have much coming up and I thought that was pretty funny considering at the GP Americans did pretty good and none of the ones racing were are so called "the" guys. Plus AMA has Both Martins,Savagty,AC,Plessinger, Forkner, Cooper and there is always a fleet of fast guys coming up every year. Bakerfield kids are killing it at Lorettas. Americans are winning in EMX250 and for the first time in awhile we have an American who can win the MX2 title next year. Looking at Des Nations teams if the Netherlands or Italy lose one guy they would most likely struggle to make top 5. As strong as France is with top End Talent, They have 5 guys and maybe Tixer depending on the day but after that there is a huge drop off after that. If Belgium loses DeSalle there team is in rough shape. If GB would have lost Max it would have hurt although the Great Scott is Great but after that they have a big drop off as well. America can have literally 6-7 guys bow out or be hurt and still have a chance of winning, not favorites but certainly a chance. What a sub par Motocross country.

If this is the USA/AMA at its "worst' I wonder what it will look like at its best?



I thought he finished second?

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9/4/2017 2:31 PM

jamma10 wrote:

Good post Park Boys. The overreaction to Ironman was ridiculous, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that a lot of Americans only really care about who wins while writing virtually everything else off as irrelevant. That's why years of back to back MXdN victories painted a somewhat distorted picture in the minds of many fans who decided to shut up shop and ignore the GPs entirely.

Maybe that winners mindset is a trait to be admired, I don't know. But it sure throws the cat amongst the pigeons when the unexpected happens.

(those gifs are brilliant btw laughing )

Over reaction? The guy went from last 2 first like everybody else was on bigwheels!

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9/4/2017 3:54 PM

jamma10 wrote:

Good post Park Boys. The overreaction to Ironman was ridiculous, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that a lot of Americans only really care about who wins while writing virtually everything else off as irrelevant. That's why years of back to back MXdN victories painted a somewhat distorted picture in the minds of many fans who decided to shut up shop and ignore the GPs entirely.

Maybe that winners mindset is a trait to be admired, I don't know. But it sure throws the cat amongst the pigeons when the unexpected happens.

(those gifs are brilliant btw laughing )

kkawboy14 wrote:

Over reaction? The guy went from last 2 first like everybody else was on bigwheels!

But you have to consider the reasons for it - A few of the better riders were absent, Tomac was riding ultra-conservatively and a few of the others didn't seem overly interested for one reason or another, so it was a perfect senario for someone ultra-motivated like Herlings to come along and do what he did. If more people realised just how good Herlings was to begin it may not have come as such a surprise.

The trouble is that over the years American fans have been conditioned to believe that the Outdoor Nationals is the toughest series with the deepest field (Im not disputing that that hasnt been the case at times). But despite what Weege tells you before the start of every Outdoor National only 20 or so riders are genuinely fast. Some of the others aren't much quicker than the Thai or Mexican riders who make up the gate at the fly-away GPs. So take away five or six of the quicker guys and you can see why it was relatively easy pickings for Herlings. But there's no way he could have done the same thing at Hangtown.

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Jeff Emigs Keys to the Race:
1. Get a good start
2. Don't crash