A few things about Cooper's wild ride and officiating...

So if you don't intend to go off track, then you can pass... got it

Don't remember reading about "intent" in the rule book... But good to know they are consistently ignoring it

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

I'm pretty sure everyone thinks it was unintentional. Question is, shouldn't he have let Eli back past because he unintentionally gained a position or advantage, then continued to race on? Didn't someone else do that back in Vegas one year? Or is that just a gentleman's code and these day's it's whatever gets the job done and as long as there's no violence it's all ok?

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

You've made your position perfectly clear in defending them and Feld at every step (in Limegate)... It's ok. It's your job.... Well kinda...

Thanks for the insult though. Keep toeing the company line

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

but for the off-track trajectory, he would not have been able to make the pass he did.

therefore, his excursion, no matter how brief, was a proximate cause in his gain of a position.



-on the "panel" thing, was that instituted before or after Gallagher unilaterally ejected Bowers in a fit of rage?

ayearinmx wrote:

You've made your position perfectly clear in defending them and Feld at every step (in Limegate)... It's ok. It's your job.... Well kinda...

Thanks for the insult though. Keep toeing the company line

Favor returned. We're even. Carry on.

Honestly, just sounds like more of an unprofessional circus now based on what you just reported. A bunch of officials "Race Direction Panel" who don't understand their own rulebook??? Got to be kidding? Where in their rule book does it refer to intent?? They are making a joke of themselves by basically saying, "well, because it was a mistake, we'll overlook the fact that rules were broken per our own rulebook"

"They didn't think there was any intent by Cooper"....yeah, I think most everyone agrees. But this doesn't mean he didn't gain an advantage with his little off track excursion (accident or not).

Do I think Cooper deserves a penalty because he purposely cut the track boundaries? Absolutely not
Does the rulebook state he should be penalized? Absolutely

The rules are the rules and if you don't enforce you will be seen as playing favorites. Think they would let Anderson slide in this situation?

Gotta wonder now what's really going on behind the scenes with these officials. They could have come up with a much better explanation that's in alignment with the rulebook, but the pull the intent card. LMFAO.

Thanks for the insight, love your work.

From my point of vue, clearly people love to bash around any "controversial move" but my friends were thrilled by that pass and it was their first race to see, so I hope with all the great racing we have this year they'll hook up with this sport, even if 1 out of them. It's all that matters, really, and even if the track wasn't up to the expectations some have (90° turns ahah), you also have to see the positive in order for us to watch our sport grow.

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

So if I'm racing F1 at Monaco for example, all I have to do is slightly lock up the brakes before the Nouvelle Chicane, overtake, and say ,"whoops, didn't mean to!" Highly doubt that would fly

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

You prob have the ability to see who down votes posts but if you don't the first one was me..

Michael Scott wrote:

So if I'm racing F1 at Monaco for example, all I have to do is slightly lock up the brakes before the Nouvelle Chicane, overtake, and say ,"whoops, didn't mean to!" Highly doubt that would fly

Get back to me as soon as F1 starts having rhythm sections, whoops, and triples.

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

lol, ah come on, I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to believe it wasn’t fair that Webb gained a spot by cutting the track, accidental or not. And this is coming from a Webb fan.

In the rule book, does it state anything about whether it matters if it’s purposeful when a rider cuts the track and gains a position? Genuinely curious, as I don’t know.

GuyB wrote:

Quick question...where does the pass actually happen here? Match up the frames...

I'd say it happens in the second frame when Eli sees Webb out of the corner of his eye bouncing through a tough block out of control and maybe about to punt them both off the track.. But I'm just a Vitard what would I know

jemcee wrote:

You prob have the ability to see who down votes posts but if you don't the first one was me..

GuyB wrote:

Quick question...where does the pass actually happen here? Match up the frames...

it happens directly after he beelines to the exact point where tomac is planning to turn down.

again, but for his enhanced trajectory, he would not have made it to that point before Tomac did.

I think one of the best option would have be been dock Cooper 5 seconds from his finishing time for cutting the course and gaining an advantage (even though it was an accident). That way you get the formality of a penalty out of they way without effected the actual result.

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

Why are people Vitards if they simply disagree with this decision? Webb unintentionally left the track, accidentally gained an advantage and probably shouldn't have made the pass right there. Maybe dock him one position and move on.

For the record, I am a KTM Fanboy, but what's right is right.

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

ayearinmx wrote:

You've made your position perfectly clear in defending them and Feld at every step (in Limegate)... It's ok. It's your job.... Well kinda...

Thanks for the insult though. Keep toeing the company line

GuyB wrote:

Favor returned. We're even. Carry on.

Dude.... Again with this???

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

Michael Scott wrote:

So if I'm racing F1 at Monaco for example, all I have to do is slightly lock up the brakes before the Nouvelle Chicane, overtake, and say ,"whoops, didn't mean to!" Highly doubt that would fly

GuyB wrote:

Get back to me as soon as F1 starts having rhythm sections, whoops, and triples.

I’ll side with your point of view and appreciate your insight on many things but that isn’t a counter argument. The accuracy involved in hitting your marks in an F1 car at the mind boggling speeds they travel at or the precision involved at somewhere like monaco is far far greater than rhythm sections, whoops and triples.

In this instance I think his off track excursion was accidental but he should have had a time penalty applied. In F1 if you lock the brakes and miss a corner or a chicane you are penalized if you gain an advantage or avoid losing a position and Cooper gained an advantage. We would not have passed Tomac in that lap on that corner if he had corrected his course and taken the corner without leaving the track.

Michael Scott wrote:

So if you don't intend to go off track, then you can pass... got it

But if you can go off the track in that fashion, and still manage to make the pass, I’m pretty sure you deserve it. That was way more of a disadvantage than an advantage. And I would say I like Tomac more than Webb by the way.

I think Coop is gonna pass whether or not the off-track part. But, he did not 'cut' the track, as in make it shorter. He actually took a non-convenient, and much more sketchy way. I, and Tomac, should/would just give it to him.

GuyB wrote:

Yeah, those are the kind of responses I was expecting.

I used to hate the term Vitard. But if the shoe fits...

Responses citing the rulebook the sport is meant to be governed by?

Michael Scott wrote:

So if you don't intend to go off track, then you can pass... got it

powertrip456 wrote:

But if you can go off the track in that fashion, and still manage to make the pass, I’m pretty sure you deserve it. That was way more of a disadvantage than an advantage. And I would say I like Tomac more than Webb by the way.

He made a mess of the corner and was heading straight for Tomac. He made Tomac ‘check up’ as they say and then cut inside him. If he had followed the line into the corner I don’t think he would have passed him that lap on that corner.

I am quite sure he would have got him very soon after but it’s about setting a precedent that to navigate the course the fastest and beat people you have to navigate the actual course.

GuyB wrote:

Quick question...where does the pass actually happen here? Match up the frames...

Who would argue it was intentional? Obviously not.

The rules specify advantage gained. I couldn't care less, but Cooper doesn't make that exact pass without being in that position.

Who's to say Eli doesn't melt down if he's not passed? He certainly doesn't have to lift his foot and cross rut in that corner without Coop's presence that far inside

GuyB wrote:

Quick question...where does the pass actually happen here? Match up the frames...

GuyB, you are calling nearly 50% of your viewers Vitards based on the poll. I'm one of the Vitards I guess, and I'm cool with that.

But to answer your question, like others have said above, the pass was made in slide 4 when Tomac saw an Orange bike torpedoing at him from an off track angle. He let off and checked up, which wouldn't have happened if Webb was further behind him had he not cut the track, or "racecourse" per the rulebook.

But this is still not the most relevant question that anyone should be asking. The question to all the Non-Vitards (top half of poll) and AMA Officials is: Did Cooper gain an advantage without gaining a position?? Per the rulebook below:

"If a rider accelerates in an unsafe manner while off course or cuts a part of the racecourse, the rider may be determined to have gained an advantage without gaining a position"

He absolutely did, which allowed him to fluster Tomac and make the pass. He would not have been able to do this had he not gained an advantage by cutting the track (accident or not, intentional or not). This is the rulebook, and it's black and white.

All of us Vitards (bottom half of poll) understand you Non-Vitards opinion about Cooper's incident being non-intentional, and we agree. But it doesn't seem the Non-Vitards are capable of actually reading the rulebook and acknowledging the fact that the rules were broken, exactly as the rulebook states.

This topic does not stop entertaining. Another 10 pager.

GuyB wrote:

Quick question...where does the pass actually happen here? Match up the frames...

Where is Eli Tomac able to get back on the gas aggressively after turning up the berm to make more room when he saw Cooper Webb coming at him, and where was Webb able to do so after getting the bike turned?
I was happy to see Webb do well again, and that was an amazing save no doubt. I do think it is quite possible that he could have passed Tomac Saturday night, it just doesn’t seem right that he could interrupt Tomac’s momentum and ability to accelerate out of the corner while coming from a position outside of the marked boundary of the track and complete the pass at that point.
But hey, the people directly involved in and affected by it don’t seem to have a problem with it, so it’s all good.

GuyB is actually a cyborg assassin comissioned by Feld and the Motocross Industrial Complex in the year 2029 and sent back in time to quell any chances of a future uprising by the Vitards.