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Thing is, i've chipped in in these conversations before and said things like too fast etc, but then you see the posts above and it's all experience and bravado based... some peope have big balls, some say they do, some are realistic. Reality is, we gotta realise, too fast, too much etc, it's irrelevant.
What isn't, is the racing. It's undeniable the 250 class produces better racing and has, almost exclusively, which can only mean that MX, as it should be, is better served when the bikes on average are ridden too their max by more riders. It's only the freaks who have pushed a 450. They are definitely a better race bike, ie to the flag, in that a mistake is recovered etc, but what they can do extends limits way past what should, especially in a stadium. Like KW said, bones aren't getting better like the bikes, so you add injuries and the likelihood of them being worse if you're going faster and it's bloody obvious what should happen.
But the mfgs are probably still taking it in the ass from the GFC and the 4 stroke revolution, so I'm sure they're not exactly pumped about maybe a 150 four stroke and 250s, probable maintenance costs, a dwindling customer base, noise etc.
Make it two strokes from amateur till the entry class and then 250 four strokes for the pros... It would address so many issue, and create a few more, but the biggest issue to me is participation and then selling the sport... and loud ass four strokes everywhere and the entry class being better racing are red flags for me for sure.
If the 350 sells better, maybe the 450s are too fast on average for consumers and they are voicing this by purchasing 350s?
Which would Honda sell more of? A current CRF450 or a CRF250 bored and stroked to 350 and 50-55 quality easy to ride horsepower and 10 less lbs. of weight?
I have no data to support my argument, but these points are worth considering.
Leave me out! I like the sound and lack of cost of a two-stroke. But a CRF350 would be darned appealing for us old guys who like Jap bikes, aluminum frames, and Showa/KYB suspension.
That would be the smart thing to do. That's why it will never happen! Let's send 15 year old kids out on 50HP 250Fs instead of 32HP 125s. And let's keep 10 ambulances on standby so we can keep the motos going as the red flags come out.
125 and 250 two-strokes were fun, affordable, and made for great racing, amateur and pro. I pine for the good old days!
The only constant is change, but sometimes change isn't good.
"The status-quo sucks!"
-George Carlin
The Shop
Let's see what percentage of time they are at 75%-99.9% throttle.
Let's see what percentage of time they are at 50%-74.99% throttle.
Let's see what percentage of time they are at 25%-49.99% throttle.
With that data in hand, we may potentially be able to argue they are too fast given that riders do not use the throttle to potential. Maybe, maybe not.
It would be interesting to see some data.
That said, it is quite a thrill to hit WFO in the powerband of a 250 2-stroke and hold it there for a few seconds and still make the corner. It makes Joe Blow Vet Rider (me) feel pretty good! How many average guys can do this on a 450 on the regular without a rag-doll and yard sale?
Restricting power in whatever manner would bring the pack together, and heavier rider's would pay an immediate penalty. As a result I vote for Open classes showcasing the fastest bikes and riders in the World. Don't reinvent the wheel, let the future be decided on the tracks and not the rule books and cigar smoke filled back rooms.
If "handicapping" bikes is a goal for lower levels, a dyno at tech inspection is the only measuring tool available. With E-bikes now in the equation, and the bad logic of forcing pro's onto 250's only (Pro Circuit thanks you $) the formula of how to enforce power restrictions becomes problematic, since "programming" changes by Bluetooth are a reality a pre race test and "sealed engine" might not yield the same HP during the actual race. You might never catch all the cheating and end up chasing your tail.
Pro's-Open
Jr's- 40 hp limit
If someone is riding a 450 wide open all the time-in any gear-they are riding it wrong...those bikes make better power lower in the rpm range, so naturally a rider shouldn’t have the throttle pinned very much of the time.
If someone riding a two stroke lower in the rpm range, they are riding it wrong...those bikes make the best power at high rpms so A rider who is riding the bike correctly will have the throttle wide open far more often than on a four stroke.
So hitting a corner wfo on a 450 is the wrong way to ride the bike...if they are WFO...they need to shift up a gear and ride the bike in the meat of the power (in lower RPMs).
Back to the OP, I want to be clear, in no way does anyone use the full potential of a 450 All THE WAY around a track like Tomac at Southwick (and even his throttle isn’t locked to the stop). Some are parsing words on this thread. BUT, sections of the track, on SOME tracks, I damn sure do use it all. That’s why I don’t think they are too powerful. Just have to ride them with respect, and would hate to see them go away like 500 2T’s did. Propaganda spread by janky pod cast hosts isn’t helping. Love riding a 250F also, but in deep conditions with jumps out of corners they can let you down. If I was a Jedi master at cornering with a built 250F I would probably be fine. I don’t apologize for being a HP/Torque junkie.
Is a 450 too fast for Ryan Villopoto? No! Why? He knows what he is doing.
Was a CR500 too fast for David Bailey? No! Why? He knew what he was doing.
Is a 2018 CRF450 too fast for an inexperienced D rider? Very likely! Why? He doesn't know what he is doing.
Is a 2018 YZF450 too fast for a 130lb. high school junior who is new to riding? Extremely likely! Why? Same reason.
If you have the skill, technique, experience, conditioning, budget to buy/ride/race a 450, go for it. They are great bikes for the right person. They are also expensive at MSRP with fees and such. 10K+ is an expensive machine for a lot of people. Deals are out there, but on average I imagine they still sell relatively close to MSRP.
But, if the rider is lacking any pieces of the skill, technique, experience, conditioning, budget pie-chart, they are likely better off on another machine.
I can ride a 450 just fine, but my budget suits a 250 two-stroke. That's what I bought. No regrets. Will I get another 450 if I try to go to LL in +40? Possibly, if in shape and the budget allows. If I ride for fun, I'll be on a YZ250 likely for life as it suits my needs just fine and is inexpensive. It will be quite some time before e-bikes catch up to 2-strokes regarding affordability.
Having to buy used, I like the idea of a 450. It’s just that I prefer to feel like I’m pushing the bike harder like a 250f than what I can with a 450.
Had a ‘98 yz400f and I’d take that level of power ina lighter better chassis. But memories make this fond I suppose.
Pit Row
I have noticed local tracks have been mellowed out a LOT since 2 stroke days. Everything cut down. But it was smart, as current bikes are so much more powerful it's just too easy to twist the throttle and land in ICU if the obstacles are freaky.
I think the pros should have 150cc and 300cc class, 4 stroke or 2 are eligible, cc for cc.
Might save 2 strokes, and affordable amateur racing.
I've spent far less on maintenance with my 250 2 stroke than I ever did with my 450... And if the motor blows up I'm back in business for $700-900, easy.
That topic has been beaten to death though.
Personally when I go jogging, I like to use ankle weights just to make it harder and prove my manhood, so I know how some of you feel about your little engines
So you could feel the difference and felt like the mellow map you would have to really push it?
I quit racing in 2005 and last year bought a yz250 to get back into it but I just didn’t ride enough to not get arm pump within 3 turns.
You mentioned you do desert racing so perhaps you could hold it WOT in 5th gear for a long stretch on a flat surface.
The majority could hold it open off the line in a start or on the straights, but holding it open around the track I don't believe I've seen or heard of anyone do it.
Riding a 450 around a track is a different animal.
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