450’s too fast, fact or fiction?

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4/5/2018 2:04 PM

From a pure racing perspective, I hate 450s. There's no way anyone will ever convince me that the racing is better today than it was when 2 stroke 250s were the premier bike... Back when guys had to actually use the clutch, have precise throttle control and body positioning to put technical sections together. And what happened if they screwed up? Well, the bikes typically didn't pile drive them into the ground and put them out for a whole year or worse.

Also, having recently started racing again (slow vet guy), it's kind of funny with the comments I get about my YZ250. Things like "That's a sick bike! I'd totally get one, but I don't have the energy for it." Or "they're too hard to ride".

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James

4/5/2018 2:07 PM

Half the people say 450's are so hard to ride only a handful of guys in the world can ride them to their potential...the other half say 450's are so easy to ride that any "Johnny C class" can look like a pro.

If they are hard to ride...wouldn't that bring speeds down?

If they are easy to ride...wouldn't that level the playing field and create better and safer racing?

So which is it? Hard to ride, or easy to ride?

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4/5/2018 2:18 PM

RCMXracing wrote:

I say fiction. I laugh when people say only elite pro riders, or 1% can use the full potential of a 450. Nonsense. Torque ...more

Magoo would fart in yer general direction if he read this. Not on a sx, but a mx track magoo would want more from a modern 450 and would use it all.

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4/5/2018 2:18 PM

Titan1 wrote:

Half the people say 450's are so hard to ride only a handful of guys in the world can ride them to their potential...the other ...more

Way easier to ride. At the same time, it's a lot easier to put yourself in a bad place on them. IMO, they just make it too easy for squids to huck shit 10 feet out of a corner they have no business doing.

As far riding them to their full potential, yeah only expert/pro level guys really do. Not talking about clearing 100 foot uphill triple step ups. I'm talking about guys that are pinned down every straight, laying them over in berms, coming out of corners absolutely hammering the throttle, scrubbing the jump out of the corner etc. Actual fast guys. Still, how often are they really pinned on a 450?

Professional practice guy blipping around the track and still clearing all the jumps and coming back saying "I have the track dialed in" isn't using all 57+ hp of his bike on even 20% of the track.

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James

4/5/2018 2:45 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/5/2018 2:46 PM

I think the riders are too fast. On some tracks where the top 15 are separated by tenths of a second someone with tomacs skill and ability are going to use that available power to go for the quad that should be a triple. I think the 450s would be ok with different tracks. The new litpro data this year shows these guys spend 50% or more of the race in the air, doing combos with very very slight to 0 margin for error. Couple that with 60 hp bikes and money on the line these guys will huck every combination they can to gain that extra tenth

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4/5/2018 2:51 PM

Pirate421 wrote:

I think the riders are too fast. On some tracks where the top 15 are separated by tenths of a second someone with tomacs skill ...more

50% or more in the air and then time on the ground is in between jumps many times too. Only time on the ground that isnt between jumps is the entrance to the corner thru to the exit. Shouldn't there be some time on the ground or is this a new sport of flying your dirtbikes?

More sand sections like tampa and more corners less jump jump jump jump turn jump jump jump

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4/5/2018 3:12 PM

For mortals: it takes a lot less talent to go fast on a 450 vs a 250 2-stroke, thus many riders can run out of talent long before their bike runs out of capability. Bad things can happen then.

Recently bought a new 450. Easier to get around my local tracks than my 250 2-stroke. Gear selection, corner speed, etc. doesn't matter as much.

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4/5/2018 3:29 PM

erik_94COBRA wrote:

For mortals: it takes a lot less talent to go fast on a 450 vs a 250 2-stroke, thus many riders can run out of talent long ...more

Motocross used to be all about talent, technique, and race-craft. The bike mattered less. Racing was affordable.

Now it is more about risk-taking, horsepower that is both raw and controllable (via mapping and electronics), and set-up. The bike matters more. Racing is less affordable.

Which one is better? Are less showing up at the races?










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"Thank God my father wasn't rich."
-Hurricane

"You wouldn't take clay to Southwick, so why take sand to Red Bud?"
-DV

"I ride a two-stroke because I am Weigandt-level cheap"
-Me

4/5/2018 3:39 PM

Paul333 wrote:

450’s aren’t too fast. I am a Vet rider who was off bikes for ten plus years and even I hold a 450 wide open on certain parts ...more

TXDirt wrote:

Like way wide open? You've convinced me if so.

Wide open in 4rth or 5th?

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2013 CRF450R Factory Connection revalve, All stock.

4/5/2018 3:49 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/5/2018 3:58 PM

I love riding a 450. Easy to go fast and be lazy. If and when I buy a new bike it will be a 450. With that said, I have to say ...

Supercross racing is dangerous. There will always be injuries. However, those injuries and the severity of them will increase when you add speed, height & distance to the equation. Hence the modern 450. That is not an opinion but an observable scientifically proven law of physics.

These guys are racers. They will race a 1000cc dirt bike if that was they were told to ride. The riders not being able to handle the power is not a point to debate. The track design is not a factor. The track becomes more dangerous when you increase the three variables noted above. If you race a 125 on the same track as a 450 the injury stats will be much higher during the race with the 450. Period.

If we want to do "what's best for the sport" in terms of the number of available riders through out a long season, sponsorship recognition, competitive & entertaining racing, career longevity, the one solution that will have the greatest impact in terms of safety will be to SLOW THE BIKES DOWN.

We don't do this by experimenting with cc limits. We come up with a target speed scenario and go from there. What is too fast, what is too slow etc. Do the friggin homework and the build the bikes around the target.

IMO 125 any stroke and 250 any stroke. They kinda had it nailed before the thump revolution.

" CHECK PLEASE !".



Not to mention the price to own and maintain a thump. Welcome back amateurs!

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4/5/2018 3:49 PM

Paul333 wrote:

450’s aren’t too fast. I am a Vet rider who was off bikes for ten plus years and even I hold a 450 wide open on certain parts ...more

TXDirt wrote:

Like way wide open? You've convinced me if so.

kaptkaos wrote:

Wide open in 4rth or 5th?

1st?

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"A link is only as long as your longest strong chain"

4/5/2018 3:58 PM

its All fun and games on the 450 till it hooks up and puts your ass out for the count. Gotta respect 50 Plus hp I don’t care who you are.

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4/5/2018 4:03 PM

Potential for too fast, yes. Just because you can twist the throttle to the stop doesn't mean you have utilized the bike to the fullest potential. We have seen over the years that the 250 four stroke is quite capable of turning the same lap times as the 450's. The current 250 seems to be a suitable replacement to the 250 two strokes of a decade ago, between usable tractable power and ride-ability makes these two seem comparable. As the 450 seems to have exceeded the speeds and inertia as compared to the amount of force the human body can take, that's where I think the issue lies. The weekend warrior will never use the full potential of a 450. Why did they ever stop making the 500 two stroke?

1985xr80, 1988 rm125, 1995kdx200, 2001cr125, 2002yz250f, 2004yz250f, 2011ktm350sxf, 2015yz250f, 2018pw50.

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4/5/2018 4:10 PM

Titan1 wrote:

Half the people say 450's are so hard to ride only a handful of guys in the world can ride them to their potential...the other ...more

You're fucking up the narrative! laughing laughing laughing

" I'm running a 450 wide open almost every where around the track.....in the C class."

Hmmm?.....something aint adding up here. Didn't know we had a bunch of Barcia's and Tomac's in here. Must be because they aint got that fancy schmancy A-kit slapped on there.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Ezza is Da man!

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

4/5/2018 4:12 PM

RCMXracing wrote:

I say fiction. I laugh when people say only elite pro riders, or 1% can use the full potential of a 450. Nonsense. Torque ...more

BobbyM wrote:

Magoo would fart in yer general direction if he read this. Not on a sx, but a mx track magoo would want more from a modern 450 ...more

Bobby.....the 500cc 2 strokes weren't even fast enough for that guy on certain days. One of the most epic beast's this sport has ever seen. God damn he was fun to watch!

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Ezza is Da man!

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

4/5/2018 4:16 PM

RCMXracing wrote:

I say fiction. I laugh when people say only elite pro riders, or 1% can use the full potential of a 450. Nonsense. Torque ...more

BobbyM wrote:

Magoo would fart in yer general direction if he read this. Not on a sx, but a mx track magoo would want more from a modern 450 ...more

BOOM!

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Nobody ever told me, I found out for myself. You've got to believe in foolish miracles. It's not how you play the game, it's if you win or lose. You can choose. Don't confuse. Win or lose. It's up to you!

4/5/2018 4:16 PM

Titan1 wrote:

Half the people say 450's are so hard to ride only a handful of guys in the world can ride them to their potential...the other ...more

jeffro503 wrote:

You're fucking up the narrative! laughing laughing laughing

" I'm running a 450 wide open almost every where around the track.....in the C class."

...more

No its not effing up the narrative. You're missing a key part of it. The bikes ARE easier to ride, but they also have more hp tq and more traction. Therefore increased speeds and ability to send it over bigger obstacles at faster speeds.....Yes they are easier to ride BUT when a mistake happens the results now are disasterous as the speeds and obstacles are so far elevated from previously.

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4/5/2018 4:32 PM

Titan1 wrote:

Half the people say 450's are so hard to ride only a handful of guys in the world can ride them to their potential...the other ...more

jeffro503 wrote:

You're fucking up the narrative! laughing laughing laughing

" I'm running a 450 wide open almost every where around the track.....in the C class."

...more

yz133rider wrote:

No its not effing up the narrative. You're missing a key part of it. The bikes ARE easier to ride, but they also have more hp ...more

I agree with everything you just said. My point ( and to add to yours is )......there aint anyone on this board pinning a 450 around an MX track. Anyone can pin the sucker down a long strait.....big whoopie. Seriously , anyone can do that....but that isn't what makes a dude fast around the track. That's only 1 out of a 100 different things to do , to make it around the track " fast. "

I see more beginner's and Juniors pinning the throttle then I do the pro's around here. Their " Point and shoot " method can be funny to watch.

"Skill ".....is not just knowing how to pin your bike wide open down the next strait. And people who say " I'm wringing the snot out of my 450 every where on a track , and it can't go any faster ".......are completely clueless in so many ways , I don't even know what to say here.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Ezza is Da man!

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

4/5/2018 4:41 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/5/2018 4:44 PM

jeffro503 wrote:

You're fucking up the narrative! laughing laughing laughing

" I'm running a 450 wide open almost every where around the track.....in the C class."

...more

yz133rider wrote:

No its not effing up the narrative. You're missing a key part of it. The bikes ARE easier to ride, but they also have more hp ...more

jeffro503 wrote:

I agree with everything you just said. My point ( and to add to yours is )......there aint anyone on this board pinning a 450 ...more

I hear you for sure. Mistakes are just so massively magnified now with the current combination of speeds, bikes, and track designs for the pros.

Amateurs are facing similar issues also. 4 strokes are so hooked up and so easy to line up to a jump and grab half throttle in whatever gear your in and send it over the biggest of obstacles regardless if you have the skill, timing, bike control etc to hit it. Before on a 2 stroke you needed momentum, throttle control, corner speed, and grabbing a gear or two out of the corner to clear said obstacle...that weeded out people who could send it naturally as many just didnt have anywhere close to the speed out of the corner to commit.


Anyway these essays from me are never met with any type of constructive dialogue and i need to take up golf so maybe ill stop here lol

*In short a bike can be easier to ride and smoother and still be more dangerous. IE 60hp 450s with infinitely more traction and power spread than a 46hp 250 2 stroke*

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4/5/2018 4:45 PM

Pretty sure that RC, RV or JS on a 125 or hell a new 85cc two smoker for that matter could smoke all the people in this thread! It has always been the rider as far as lap times as far as me being on a new 450 was a personal preference. I'm a hp junkie on the track and off. That doesn;t mean the 450 is pinned all the time like a 125 would be but yes I have pinned it before on long straights when traction is there. Best to short shift the beast and let it eat.......I'm a 58 year old vet mx racer.

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4/5/2018 4:51 PM

yz133rider wrote:

I hear you for sure. Mistakes are just so massively magnified now with the current combination of speeds, bikes, and track ...more

For sure man , I totally get what you're saying there too , and agree.

For me personally....I got off the 450's for a certain couple reasons , which fall inline with what you are saying.

Play riding , or riding easy on a 450 was fine for me.....racing them wasn't. So much power behind those bikes , that when you're 15 - 20 mins into a hard moto , tired and making small mistakes......just that little bit of whiskey throttle , and you end up from having fun , to a hospital ride. All that power , hooking up the way they do , gives little room for error.

I went back to the 125 and 250 2 strokes because I not only feel safer riding them at race pace , but when I get tired , they don't get away from me so easy. That little less power , extra wheel spin and so forth....actually helps me , and the way I like to ride. No excuses , but it got to the point of me not trusting myself at race speed on a 450 any more. Had to swallow some pride to actually say that.....but I don't regret the switch back to 2 strokes at all.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Ezza is Da man!

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

4/5/2018 5:09 PM

SPODEBOY wrote:

I love riding a 450. Easy to go fast and be lazy. If and when I buy a new bike it will be a 450. With that said, I have to say ...more

I think you guys conveniently forget how many injuries there was in the 2 stroke days.....and by your accounts the tracks were easier....

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

4/5/2018 6:08 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/5/2018 6:09 PM

kiwifan wrote:

I think you guys conveniently forget how many injuries there was in the 2 stroke days.....and by your accounts the tracks were ...more

There weren't as many injuries. I really don't know how you can dispute that. Maybe 2 top 10 guys out each year on average in the premier class? And most of the time they weren't out for the entire year with a nearly missing limb or a torso torn in half...

I'd venture to say many, if not most of the late 90s and early 2000's tracks were in fact more technical.

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James

4/5/2018 6:52 PM

If they only made a 46 hp CRF150R, with suspension done for a 200 lb vet, I would be in heaven!!!

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2013 CRF450R Factory Connection revalve, All stock.

4/5/2018 7:13 PM

SPODEBOY wrote:

I love riding a 450. Easy to go fast and be lazy. If and when I buy a new bike it will be a 450. With that said, I have to say ...more

I agree with some things you say here, but disagree somewhat about the injuries. Possibly you have a valid point about the severity, but disagree about the frequency. Is anyone keeping stats on the #, type, severity, track, etc. for injuries over the last 40 years? @DC?
More guys out on 250’s this year than 450’s. I know not a fair data point as it’s just one year. From personal experience and observation at the amateur level much easier to get spit off a 2 stroke, and thus more injuries. But hey, no data, just my observation.
The big thing that has changed in SX recently, (where guys get more FUBR’d) is the timed races vs. the old lap count. More time on the track - it gets more jacked. SX is dangerous enough without a chewed up track. Definitely better for us fans, love the longer races, but tracks are getting ruined. Also tracks in SX have changed. Back in 2 stroke days they had peakier faces and that slowed things down, way down.

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4/5/2018 8:06 PM

BobbyM wrote:

Magoo would fart in yer general direction if he read this. Not on a sx, but a mx track magoo would want more from a modern 450 ...more

We have a winner!!! Magoo was WFO and I agree with BobbyM. I am 55 and retired, ride a Yamaha YZ-125, and I am wfo4ever.

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4/5/2018 8:27 PM

@ the above 2 posts,

No it seems not, no one has bothered to compile crash stats, that in itself is really poor and unprofessional..

And

Unless you can ride a 125 properly you dont know shit about riding mx, lazing the day around on a 450 couch at half throttle at a reasonable pace is stupid easy.

And to the "im pinned on a 450" guys, please continue, delusional stuff on the web is funny..

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4/5/2018 8:50 PM

Asimo wrote:

Almost every other motorsport has smaller engines and NHRA has went to 1,000 foot tracks from 1/4 mile at some tracks. Thats ...more

1000 foot at all tracks for the nitro cars. The current F1 cars make more power than the old V12's, but without the sound and personality...

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

4/5/2018 8:51 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/5/2018 8:52 PM

450’s r too fast for indoors. In five years indoors it might be who has the fastest sewing machine.

As someone said, you go to the races to see throttle cables ripped. Factory 450 on a SX track, seen very few of even the top guys ride like that. RV, KW in parts, RC and of course Mr. Stewart.

If I’m buying a four stroke for moi to play however, it will be at least a 450. Versatile and they can handle hours.

I think the key to SX safety is the same old story, $. Twenty-five percent more dirt would really help the grade of the jump faces and the very sudden stops. Plus maybe add some width for different line options so riders don’t land on each other. Both of those types of crashes are pretty sickening to watch.

I honestly don’t think anyone cares about the riders, there is always the next one.

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In my 60’s and still loving dirt scoots up here in the frozen north.

2021 Husky 501s

4/5/2018 8:54 PM

The combination of hp and weight are what I hated about a 450.

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