450’s too fast, fact or fiction?

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4/5/2018 9:36 AM

I say fiction. I laugh when people say only elite pro riders, or 1% can use the full potential of a 450. Nonsense. Torque gives you acceleration, the 450 has loads of it and I use it! Sandy, deep conditions and jumps out of corners I’m stretching the cable on several sections and my dry weight is only 185. The “experts” like Matthes are spreading this myth that 450’s are too powerful. Stop it.
Having said all that for indoors is a 450 necessary? Of course not, and the racing would be just as good on a 350...still huck quads. w00t And I say just as good, NOT better on a smaller cc machine. Is 250F racing better than 450F? IMO it’s not about the machine size at all.

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4/5/2018 9:38 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/5/2018 9:51 AM

Video please.

They are fine to own, the average guy can buy a 450 and ride it all year and hardly do anything to it. That said, they do suck for racing and yes, racing is worse with them in the premier class.

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4/5/2018 9:38 AM

The 450 sucks for SX racing. It's basically lug the bike around the track and try not to get killed.

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4/5/2018 9:41 AM

I dig my 450... I assume that Eli digs his more than me!

I hadn't ridden my 06 KX250 in a couple years and took it out this weekend and to tell you the truth I had more "Oh SHIT" moments on it than on the 450... but I am no Eli that's for sure!

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Don’t piss off the old people - the older they get the less “life in prison” is a deterrent for them!

2020.5 KTM 450 SXF FE
2006 KX250

4/5/2018 9:43 AM

Id argue that modern factory 250fs are as fast or faster than factory 250 2 strokes.
They make 50+hp.
Much wider power spread
Much more traction and better power delivery

All that leads to more traction more hooked up, smoother and more speed. They can do big obstacles right out of turns, the power stretches far and can do huge combos etc.

The 2 strokes were much peakier, much more wheel spin, much more difficult to string huge combos together let alone clean laps


So yes 450s are clearly too much.
The 250fs are obviously massively faster than 125s every were. Like a different planet. So that puts them right with the 250 2 strokes of 12+ years ago if not ahead of them due to the power spread and delivery

Now 450s are even more power, more tq, more power spread, more hooked up and faster

The speeds and obstacles now are another level than before, and when something goes wrong the results are like Cole Seelys broken pelvis and his insides literally torn in half from his torso to hips.

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4/5/2018 9:49 AM

Photo

You know, they've tried 500s in Supy too...
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"A link is only as long as your longest strong chain"

4/5/2018 9:49 AM

yz133rider wrote:

Id argue that modern factory 250fs are as fast or faster than factory 250 2 strokes.
They make 50+hp.
Much wider power spread
Much more traction and better power delivery

All that leads to more traction more hooked up, smoother and more speed. They can do big obstacles right out of turns, the power stretches far and can do huge combos etc.

The 2 strokes were much peakier, much more wheel spin, much more difficult to string huge combos together let alone clean laps


So yes 450s are clearly too much.
The 250fs are obviously massively faster than 125s every were. Like a different planet. So that puts them right with the 250 2 strokes of 12+ years ago if not ahead of them due to the power spread and delivery

Now 450s are even more power, more tq, more power spread, more hooked up and faster

The speeds and obstacles now are another level than before, and when something goes wrong the results are like Cole Seelys broken pelvis and his insides literally torn in half from his torso to hips.

Ironically, Cole's injury resulted from him not giving it the full beans for fear of going long on the jump combo (he says this on a dmxs interview).

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4/5/2018 9:52 AM

Watching a lot of old SX races lately. Still a dangerous sport, but lighter bikes seemed to have more potential for saving and when they do slam you, every ounce and less inertia force counts.

Outdoors, run what ya brung.

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In my 60’s and still loving dirt scoots up here in the frozen north.

2021 Husky 501s

4/5/2018 9:52 AM

In short, fact.

I've been wanting to see a 250 and 350 class for a while, but that'll never happen.

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4/5/2018 9:54 AM

Back on a 450 after many years not having one. Rode a 250F in 2015, it was Ok, however I need to light my hair on fire to get the most out of it. Then for 2016 I rode a 350 and in 2017 made it a 380....better, not so much lighter fluid needed!

For 2018 - Ha a 450, nice! Need get used to the acceleration that causes watery eyes and loss of focus - but a lot more fun to ride, but then I'm 66 years young and the eye issue comes with an aging motocross bodyw00t

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Germany 1975 250 CZ Centerport, laydown shocks, mikuni with reed valve, Marzocchi forks with me as the motopilot

4/5/2018 9:58 AM

Tim507 wrote:

Back on a 450 after many years not having one. Rode a 250F in 2015, it was Ok, however I need to light my hair on fire to get the most out of it. Then for 2016 I rode a 350 and in 2017 made it a 380....better, not so much lighter fluid needed!

For 2018 - Ha a 450, nice! Need get used to the acceleration that causes watery eyes and loss of focus - but a lot more fun to ride, but then I'm 66 years young and the eye issue comes with an aging motocross bodyw00t

Neat, I’m an old 58. When this winter shit goes, I’ll be about.......42.

Keep on keeping on.

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In my 60’s and still loving dirt scoots up here in the frozen north.

2021 Husky 501s

4/5/2018 9:58 AM

Too fast for Supercross? No.
Dangerously fast to be ridden on the tracks they are building these days? Yes.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

4/5/2018 10:04 AM

All this talk about the 450's being to slow around the track, you do know that at every event this year the 450 class has turned in lap times around 2 seconds FASTER than the 250's have, right?

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4/5/2018 10:09 AM

Tim507 wrote:

Back on a 450 after many years not having one. Rode a 250F in 2015, it was Ok, however I need to light my hair on fire to get the most out of it. Then for 2016 I rode a 350 and in 2017 made it a 380....better, not so much lighter fluid needed!

For 2018 - Ha a 450, nice! Need get used to the acceleration that causes watery eyes and loss of focus - but a lot more fun to ride, but then I'm 66 years young and the eye issue comes with an aging motocross bodyw00t

Ha, that’s funny. I bought a used 250F to try it (went from 250T’s to 450’s) and on certain tracks (harder base, tighter) it’s a weapon, but yeah have to approach it like an angry troubled youth, Juevey stripes and all. angry

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4/5/2018 10:13 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/5/2018 10:14 AM

Almost every other motorsport has smaller engines and NHRA has went to 1,000 foot tracks from 1/4 mile at some tracks. Thats about 300 Feet shorter. That is a looooonnnnnggggggggggg way.

F1 would be doing 300 MPH straights with older V 12s today and NHRA would be doing 400 MPH at some tracks if not shortened.
And records keep getting broken.

Put a 12 foot wall jump in the middle of the rhythm section.

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4/5/2018 10:19 AM

450’s aren’t too fast. I am a Vet rider who was off bikes for ten plus years and even I hold a 450 wide open on certain parts of the track.

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4/5/2018 10:39 AM

Paul333 wrote:

450’s aren’t too fast. I am a Vet rider who was off bikes for ten plus years and even I hold a 450 wide open on certain parts of the track.

Like way wide open? You've convinced me if so.

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4/5/2018 10:44 AM

Where's the street bike guy when u need him

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4/5/2018 10:44 AM

Paul333 wrote:

450’s aren’t too fast. I am a Vet rider who was off bikes for ten plus years and even I hold a 450 wide open on certain parts of the track.

Exactly. I don’t believe guys know sometimes they’re using it all because of short shifting which is generally the correct way to ride a 450. But yeah certain sections, deep conditions...or blow a corner and have to gag it and seat bounce, heck yeah WFO. I rarely feel the cable pull stop, but sometimes I do and it’s nice to have it! WC hr meter has max rpms...typically see 8,800 as max, but sometimes seeing 9,400 + those are times I had to give it the beans! laughing

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4/5/2018 10:46 AM

Asimo wrote:

Almost every other motorsport has smaller engines and NHRA has went to 1,000 foot tracks from 1/4 mile at some tracks. Thats about 300 Feet shorter. That is a looooonnnnnggggggggggg way.

F1 would be doing 300 MPH straights with older V 12s today and NHRA would be doing 400 MPH at some tracks if not shortened.
And records keep getting broken.

Put a 12 foot wall jump in the middle of the rhythm section.

In the 3.5-liter era, it was mostly V10s. Of the front-runners, only Honda and Ferrari ran V12s, and I think everyone agrees it was an engineering mistake.

But I see your point. An F1 car today built to 1989's engine rules would be a spacecraft.

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F1. MotoGP. MXGP. Screw the rest.

4/5/2018 10:47 AM

rongi#401 wrote:

Where's the street bike guy when u need him

Hahaha. I forgot about that guy

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2017 RMZ450
2005 YZ250-sold :,(
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @hammerfamily_4 & @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, Fasthouse, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

4/5/2018 10:55 AM

rongi#401 wrote:

Where's the street bike guy when u need him

mattyhamz2 wrote:

Hahaha. I forgot about that guy

I remember that thread. I'm sure he would have some input.

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4/5/2018 11:25 AM

I weigh 250lbs so my view is skewed. I think 450s are perfectly managable. Ive ridden much more wild bikes on the road. KTMs superduke 1290 for example. 450s arent too fast. People who weigh 130lbs with no throttle control give them a bad rep

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4/5/2018 11:31 AM

You can regrip on a 450 and find at least 10 more HP. I am rarely to the stop on a 450, but it's nice to have when you need it. I remember a data collection Suzuki did and even Carmichael was WFO a small percentage of the time.

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

4/5/2018 12:54 PM

Bikes are only going to go as fast as you turn the throttle. SX bikes have more R&D/$$$/Testing in them than the outdoor bike for the same pro team. I'm sure Joe Smuckatelly on a stock bike would have more fun on an outdoors track than indoors even if he had to roll everything. I agree putting walls in and taking the option out for some dumbass 90 footer off a 5 foot jump face would be a better option, but hey, some mofo would try it anyway.

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2018 YZ450

4/5/2018 1:11 PM

Some guys have their mid life crisis by buying a 450.
Some guys manlyness threatened when someone says their bike is to powerful for most to handle.
All on display here, and seen in real life, funny stuff.

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4/5/2018 1:16 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/5/2018 1:19 PM

450s and 250Fs allow slow riders to go fast and fast riders to go extremely fast.

This has resulted in higher speeds and more severe injuries.

I'd rather everyone rode less powerful machines, speeds came down, less got hurt, and less got horribly hurt.

It would be cool to make 250 the premier class with a 150 support class. Two or four-strokes are allowed.

A 150 four-stroke in a YZ125 chassis could be a hoot. Also privateers racing 250cc two-strokes against factory 250Fs would be cool to watch.

It will never happen but would be interesting. That said, I enjoy my YZ250 and at 35 it takes me around as fast as I want to go. I'll never buy a 450 again. I had a 2006 CRF450 and a 2011 YZ450 with a C4MX engine and Enzo suspension. Great bikes, but I won't get another. My next bike may be a 125. Less is more.

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"Thank God my father wasn't rich."
-Hurricane

"You wouldn't take clay to Southwick, so why take sand to Red Bud?"
-DV

"I ride a two-stroke because I am Weigandt-level cheap"
-Me

4/5/2018 1:18 PM

So, we're blaming the bikes?

Classic

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

4/5/2018 1:41 PM

TeamGreen wrote:

So, we're blaming the bikes?

Classic

You're free to have whatever opinion you like (and thanks for sharing those opinions), but I think we can all agree that significant changes have been made to the sport since the takeover of four-strokes in 2004.

Can we agree that some of these changes have been bad for the sport, promoters, and amateur participants?

Can we agree that more powerful machines result in higher speeds? And higher speeds can be linked to increasingly severe injuries?

With the generation turnover that is coming very soon, is the sport sustainable at the amateur level with 450 and 250 four-strokes? Could the sport be safer and less expensive if we switched back to 125/250 two-strokes that were run during the motocross boom of 1997-2003?







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"Thank God my father wasn't rich."
-Hurricane

"You wouldn't take clay to Southwick, so why take sand to Red Bud?"
-DV

"I ride a two-stroke because I am Weigandt-level cheap"
-Me

4/5/2018 1:49 PM

On a local level, I do believe a 450 'numbs' the skillset.

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Current rides-
1988 RM250
2019 KX450