Posts
12
Joined
1/11/2010
Location
GB
Edited Date/Time
1/27/2012 10:59am
I am a member of www.twostrokemotocross.com and I love 2 strokes, we think its unfair that 4 strokes are allowed an engine size 'handicap' that pretty much amounts to a cheater rule in order to be able to compete against 2 strokes.
The bottom line is that the powers that be in the AMA are scared of putting 2 strokes and 4 strokes of equal engine size up against eachother because even though 4 strokes are supposed to be 'technologically superior' they cannot take 2 strokes on a level playing field.
Here in the UK our new Red Bull Pro National Series has 2 and 4 strokes up against eachother on an equal footing. We are seeing a massive increase in pros riding 2 strokes and winning here. In fact Suzuki still sell the RM 125 and 250 here in England, but they dont import to the US because the rules are displacement rules are bent in favour of 4 strokes...
I hope soon that the pro series in the US will adopt the same rules as amateur racing and let fair & equal displacement rules...
The bottom line is that the powers that be in the AMA are scared of putting 2 strokes and 4 strokes of equal engine size up against eachother because even though 4 strokes are supposed to be 'technologically superior' they cannot take 2 strokes on a level playing field.
Here in the UK our new Red Bull Pro National Series has 2 and 4 strokes up against eachother on an equal footing. We are seeing a massive increase in pros riding 2 strokes and winning here. In fact Suzuki still sell the RM 125 and 250 here in England, but they dont import to the US because the rules are displacement rules are bent in favour of 4 strokes...
I hope soon that the pro series in the US will adopt the same rules as amateur racing and let fair & equal displacement rules...
LOL they are the only thing that lasts and sell in this economy.
ha!
The Shop
Keep your head down mate, the barrage is coming!!
That is why 4 strokes can only be competitive given a HUGE handicap. Its like saying there is a new golf club that has come out that has the 'latest technology' but wait, in order for it to be competitive against normal clubs you need 2 x as many shots as a handicap. How can that be right? If its so superior it should be able to win without a bigger engine!
And they now have the crazy situation in America where all amateur racing has equal displacement, but in pro racing they still have the bent rules? why do the pro's need different rules? It's because the manufacturers are scared that if they went head to head the 2 stroke would win and they would lose profits from selling less 4 strokes.. and its the public buying this bs.. it is bordering on a protectionism racket.
oh yeah, and Australia
you guys crack me up!
I quite like this "handicap" concept and now see the 4 stroke riders in a different light, its very fitting given some of the extremely intelligent comments they come up with
But I do look forward to the full removal of this handicap, the sooner the better.
The powers that be who decided that 4 stokes were the way forward in MX have made a right mess of things!
You make some good points....Is it really the AMA? I wonder...I've never quite understood this concept from the manufacturer's standpoint....would they not sell more total bikes if they offered more viable options to buyers--2 AND 4 strokes?
A buddy of mine (a confirmed "conspiracy theorist wacko"--i.e. the Cubans got Kennedy), thinks it's because the bike makers see more long-term profit in selling parts (how many more engine parts do 4 strokes have?) than selling bikes....piece one together by parts and see how much it costs, he says...Jackass
I think it's down to both parts and new bikes, they can charge more for 4 strokes at dealership level - and the second hand bike market hardly seems to have many 4 strokes that are over a few years old - where as you get 2 strokes still working in great condition often even from 10 years ago.. In the old days you would sell your 1 or 2 year old 2 stroke as a down payment on your new machine but from what I've heard the 4 strokes are like a ticking time bomb and people are wary of buying them 2nd hand so people get stuck with them or have to sell them for way less than they would hope to. this means a lot of would be racers are being priced out of the sport
Plus yes the parts are way more expensive too, and there are more of them - for example an after market pipe for a 4 stroke is way more expensive than the equivelant of a 2 stroke. That would at least be acceptable if even after all the cash they are fleecing they still didnt have to rely on a handicap to win! If you see this video by Mitch Payton at Pro Circuit where he talks about the increased costs that are even difficult for him to work with it makes an interesting interview from someone who certainly knows his stuff -
http://www.vitalmx.com/...h-Payton,989/GuyB,64
I've been running a poll for the last several years (see link in my signature). The percentages haven't changed a lot over the years but I have noticed that the percentage of people who took the poll who only own a 2-stroke has dropped slightly while the percentage of people who prefer to ride/race a 2-stroke has risen. I can only speculate as to why but it would seem to me the reason would be because as time moves along their options have become more limited. That is, you don't see them at your local dealer any more.
When over 70% of dirt bike riders (at least the dirt bike riders that post on these types of forums and have taken my poll) prefer the 2-stroke and that preference seems to be increasing why would the dealers not want to sell us what we want? I think the reason might be because the 2-stroke is an overall better bike in that they are more reliable, don't require as much maintenance, are cheaper to repair when they do require maintenance, are an overall lower cost machine because of their simplicity. All of that translates into the dealer cannot make as much money off of each bike sold with the 2-stroke both in the initial sale and in the lifetime of the bike. On the surface it seems like it's a no brainer for the manufacturer to sell the bike they can make more money from. The only problem with that is fewer people can afford them which means they sell fewer bikes, not to mention fewer people want to ride them in the first place.
P.S. Sorry for the STFU earlier. As you can probably tell it was a sarcastic way to let you know that the MX gods (rule makers) don't want to hear that type of talk.
Pit Row
For chain saw's only
I've always wanted to say that here..
I'm still a 2 smoke guy!!
See ya May 2nd!!
They are two totally different engines and displacement is not the answer to a level playing field.
About
The Two Stroke Motocross web site (TSM) is your source for two stroke news, tech and tips.
Our mission is to ensure that two stroke riders/racers have a place to go to read and comment about their engine of choice. A place where ideas and solutions can be exchanged in a respectful and intelligent manner.
We are racers, family members and lovers of motocross and get angry that the lightest, most powerful engine ever designed for motocross is in danger of extinction. This is due to the shortsighted view of the motocross sanctioning bodies and some of the manufacturers.
No other motor sports have rules with displacement inequality as we have in motocross. This has been the one and only reason that the two stroke has been toppled from it’s status as the king of motocross.
Our goal is to provide support for those of you that believe in the two stroke.
Unbelievable.
4-stroke technology has advanced a long way since those days and even if they might not be able to put out the same HP as a similar sized 2-stroke some people might prefer the way the HP is applied and would still opt to ride the 4-stroke. Since over 70% of people polled actually prefer to ride a 2-stroke regardless of power I would expect to see more 2-strokes at the race track than 4-strokes if things were actually equal (which they never can be). In fact I would expect to see more than 70% 2-strokes because there would be some who actually prefer to ride the 4-stroke but can only afford to ride the 2-stroke.
By coming up with a displacement (either smaller for four strokes or bigger for two strokes)
as a starting point. Let's say it's a 200cc two against a 250f.
there would be some who actually prefer to ride the 4-stroke but can only afford to ride the 2-stroke.
I really don't know where all this crap about how much it cost to maintain a four stroke comes from. I have been involved in both at a pro level and I will take the four stroke with out a doubt. I think the reality is that a two stroke will take the abuse of poor and improper maintenance better than the four stroke will.
The answer to that is to learn how to properly maintain a bike.
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