250 vs 450 laptimes

RandomUserName
Profile picture for user RandomUserName
Posts
1044
Joined
9/5/2021
Location
San Antonio, TX US
Fantasy
2773rd
RandomUserName
So Jett ran a faster lap than the 450s by almost a full second.

"Yeah but the track is chewed up for the 450s" and I agree...but having the PREMIER class run a slower lap than the "feeder" class is just more evidence that bikes/sizes/cc's/tracks are jacked.

The premier class should be hitting lines/speeds that the 250s can't do.

5
17
|
gt80rider
Profile picture for user gt80rider
Posts
6275
Joined
4/19/2008
Location
Boulder, CO US
gt80rider 4/16/2022 4:47pm
4/16/2022 4:47pm
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win titles, better get that done before Jett moves up...
11
1
Leeham
Profile picture for user Leeham
Posts
1088
Joined
10/29/2018
Location
Rochester, WA US
Fantasy
3088th
Leeham 4/16/2022 4:48pm
4/16/2022 4:48pm
How would you fix it?
yz133rider
Profile picture for user yz133rider
Posts
4471
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA US
yz133rider 4/16/2022 5:09pm
4/16/2022 5:09pm
Leeham wrote:
How would you fix it?

Premier class 250s
125 class the entry level

It used to be the premier class bikes had more power to really jump obstacles the smaller bikes couldn’t. Now you never see that the 250fs are so dang good.

125s will bring that back.
7
8
brimx153
Profile picture for user brimx153
Posts
3338
Joined
5/3/2012
Location
IE
brimx153 4/16/2022 5:27pm
4/16/2022 5:27pm
Track looked slicker for the 450s .plus whoops got beat
3
3

The Shop

See All »
Titan1
Profile picture for user Titan1
Posts
8622
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT US
Titan1 4/16/2022 5:44pm
4/16/2022 5:44pm
Leeham wrote:
How would you fix it?
yz133rider wrote:
Premier class 250s 125 class the entry level It used to be the premier class bikes had more power to really jump obstacles the smaller bikes...

Premier class 250s
125 class the entry level

It used to be the premier class bikes had more power to really jump obstacles the smaller bikes couldn’t. Now you never see that the 250fs are so dang good.

125s will bring that back.
Except not all manufacturers make a 125...so it'll never fly. Not saying it shouldn't be that way, but its a pipe dream unless Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki were all still making 125's...No way AMA or Feld risk alienating half the manufacturers with a class structure like that.

Yeah, yeah...Honda and Kawasaki and Suzuki should just make 125's...but that's an even bigger pipe dream...
5
2
RandomUserName
Profile picture for user RandomUserName
Posts
1044
Joined
9/5/2021
Location
San Antonio, TX US
Fantasy
2773rd
RandomUserName 4/16/2022 5:48pm
4/16/2022 5:48pm
brimx153 wrote:
Track looked slicker for the 450s .plus whoops got beat
so? a slick track shouldn't make the FEEDER class better than the PREMIER class.

The track should completely run diff for the 450s.
12
brimx153
Profile picture for user brimx153
Posts
3338
Joined
5/3/2012
Location
IE
brimx153 4/16/2022 6:18pm
4/16/2022 6:18pm
Being slick is going to slow times down way more than a bumpy track . There were a few turns they had to tip toe around. Slick track s can slow u down more than a full wet track. It's like ice
bvm111
Profile picture for user bvm111
Posts
9329
Joined
7/1/2008
Location
Las Vegas, NV US
bvm111 4/16/2022 6:25pm
4/16/2022 6:25pm
smaller bore motorcycles require the rider to keep momentum up through the turns to clear the obstacles…therefore faster lap times. No different when Jonny O smoked the 250s and 500s during the MXdN 86 in both motos.
2
6
Leeham
Profile picture for user Leeham
Posts
1088
Joined
10/29/2018
Location
Rochester, WA US
Fantasy
3088th
Leeham 4/16/2022 9:37pm
4/16/2022 9:37pm
RandomUserName wrote:
so? a slick track shouldn't make the FEEDER class better than the PREMIER class.

The track should completely run diff for the 450s.
Maybe he was straight up the fastest guy on the track today?

I believe at Ironman last year Jeremy Martin set the fastest lap of the entire day.

OH and lets not forget when Villopoto beat everyone on a 250F at MXoN.

Plenty of times the 250s have been faster than the 450s. Im sure it happened back when it was 125/250 2 strokes.
2
1
davis224
Profile picture for user davis224
Posts
6256
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Cornland, IL US
Fantasy
138th
davis224 4/17/2022 4:29am
4/17/2022 4:29am
With the slick conditions, a 250f may have been the perfect weapon, easier to handle. Jett may have gone slower on a 450.
3
1
RaceFace58
Profile picture for user RaceFace58
Posts
832
Joined
2/6/2022
Location
Meriden, CT US
RaceFace58 4/17/2022 4:58am
4/17/2022 4:58am
gt80rider wrote:
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win...
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win titles, better get that done before Jett moves up...
Who won the 250 race? Not saying Jett won’t be a threat for wins when he moves up but the talk pre-season was if he’d sweep every race in 250sx this year. I’m a bit shocked by all the mistakes he’s made.
2
4
RaceFace58
Profile picture for user RaceFace58
Posts
832
Joined
2/6/2022
Location
Meriden, CT US
RaceFace58 4/17/2022 5:16am
4/17/2022 5:16am
RandomUserName wrote:
So Jett ran a faster lap than the 450s by almost a full second. "Yeah but the track is chewed up for the 450s" and I...
So Jett ran a faster lap than the 450s by almost a full second.

"Yeah but the track is chewed up for the 450s" and I agree...but having the PREMIER class run a slower lap than the "feeder" class is just more evidence that bikes/sizes/cc's/tracks are jacked.

The premier class should be hitting lines/speeds that the 250s can't do.

False premise since you are taking one rider and putting all the cause of the lap time on the displacement of his bike. If you take average lap times you’ll see Jett was about 5th fastest against 450 times. The OP embellished the time of the fast lap by saying “almost a full second” when it factually was 4/10 of a second. If you look at qualifying times you’ll again see Jett was about 5th fastest but he was 2.5 seconds SLOWER than the fastest 450 guy.
3
2
Tumic
Profile picture for user Tumic
Posts
1291
Joined
11/27/2012
Location
Sundsvall SE
Tumic 4/17/2022 5:40am
4/17/2022 5:40am
RaceFace58 wrote:
False premise since you are taking one rider and putting all the cause of the lap time on the displacement of his bike. If you take...
False premise since you are taking one rider and putting all the cause of the lap time on the displacement of his bike. If you take average lap times you’ll see Jett was about 5th fastest against 450 times. The OP embellished the time of the fast lap by saying “almost a full second” when it factually was 4/10 of a second. If you look at qualifying times you’ll again see Jett was about 5th fastest but he was 2.5 seconds SLOWER than the fastest 450 guy.
Remember that the track were quite wet during qualy? So the track probably went way faster during the 450 session than the 250’s.

The 450’s now days have become some what of the 500’s in the late 90’s when the 250’s became the faster bike to ride and the 500’s were just to much to handle.

If we often se 250’s with better lap times, that should mean that the 450’s have to much power, right?
2
1
yz133rider
Profile picture for user yz133rider
Posts
4471
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA US
yz133rider 4/17/2022 5:45am
4/17/2022 5:45am
Leeham wrote:
How would you fix it?
yz133rider wrote:
Premier class 250s 125 class the entry level It used to be the premier class bikes had more power to really jump obstacles the smaller bikes...

Premier class 250s
125 class the entry level

It used to be the premier class bikes had more power to really jump obstacles the smaller bikes couldn’t. Now you never see that the 250fs are so dang good.

125s will bring that back.
Titan1 wrote:
Except not all manufacturers make a 125...so it'll never fly. Not saying it shouldn't be that way, but its a pipe dream unless Honda, Kawasaki, and...
Except not all manufacturers make a 125...so it'll never fly. Not saying it shouldn't be that way, but its a pipe dream unless Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki were all still making 125's...No way AMA or Feld risk alienating half the manufacturers with a class structure like that.

Yeah, yeah...Honda and Kawasaki and Suzuki should just make 125's...but that's an even bigger pipe dream...
Toyota doesn’t build a rear wheel drive v8 camry with 900hp either but they still spend millions to race nascar.

The manufacturers can figure it out. The racing will still happen.
3
2
agn5008
Profile picture for user agn5008
Posts
1198
Joined
3/8/2021
Location
Saint Marys, PA US
Fantasy
256th
agn5008 4/17/2022 5:48am
4/17/2022 5:48am
gt80rider wrote:
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win...
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win titles, better get that done before Jett moves up...
I’ve heard this said so many times before and it rarely materializes. I’m not saying he won’t win titles because he probably will but so will other guys.
RaceFace58
Profile picture for user RaceFace58
Posts
832
Joined
2/6/2022
Location
Meriden, CT US
RaceFace58 4/17/2022 5:57am
4/17/2022 5:57am
RaceFace58 wrote:
False premise since you are taking one rider and putting all the cause of the lap time on the displacement of his bike. If you take...
False premise since you are taking one rider and putting all the cause of the lap time on the displacement of his bike. If you take average lap times you’ll see Jett was about 5th fastest against 450 times. The OP embellished the time of the fast lap by saying “almost a full second” when it factually was 4/10 of a second. If you look at qualifying times you’ll again see Jett was about 5th fastest but he was 2.5 seconds SLOWER than the fastest 450 guy.
Tumic wrote:
Remember that the track were quite wet during qualy? So the track probably went way faster during the 450 session than the 250’s. The 450’s now...
Remember that the track were quite wet during qualy? So the track probably went way faster during the 450 session than the 250’s.

The 450’s now days have become some what of the 500’s in the late 90’s when the 250’s became the faster bike to ride and the 500’s were just to much to handle.

If we often se 250’s with better lap times, that should mean that the 450’s have to much power, right?
You believe what you want. There have always been top upcoming racers who make whatever bike they’re on very fast. It doesn’t condemn the bigger bikes because of that. When it was J Stew on a 125 outdoors putting up times that would have had him in 3rd or 4th against the 250s no one was saying that clearly the 125 is a better weapon for racing. I pointed out that Jett’s average lap time was only good for 5th in the 450 class and you’ll still tell me we don’t need a 450 class. I do like that the track condition works in your favor in qualifying but then in the races it’s not a consideration. Funny how it always works like that.
2
Phil109
Profile picture for user Phil109
Posts
496
Joined
7/7/2019
Location
Montgomery, TX US
Phil109 4/17/2022 6:01am
4/17/2022 6:01am
Stewart used to run faster lap times on his 125 than the 250’s. If someone is that good it’s just the way it is. Unless you want to throw them all on pit bikes. Lol
1
RaceFace58
Profile picture for user RaceFace58
Posts
832
Joined
2/6/2022
Location
Meriden, CT US
RaceFace58 4/17/2022 6:02am
4/17/2022 6:02am
gt80rider wrote:
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win...
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win titles, better get that done before Jett moves up...
agn5008 wrote:
I’ve heard this said so many times before and it rarely materializes. I’m not saying he won’t win titles because he probably will but so will...
I’ve heard this said so many times before and it rarely materializes. I’m not saying he won’t win titles because he probably will but so will other guys.
Isn’t it odd that people talk like that about someone who finished 3rd in the very race that they are gushing over about how another class needs to fear him? He needs to stop making mistakes before it becomes a win or crash habit.
1
4

Pit Row

See All »
Chris_Buehler 4/17/2022 6:17am
4/17/2022 6:17am
gt80rider wrote:
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win...
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win titles, better get that done before Jett moves up...
RaceFace58 wrote:
Who won the 250 race? Not saying Jett won’t be a threat for wins when he moves up but the talk pre-season was if he’d sweep...
Who won the 250 race? Not saying Jett won’t be a threat for wins when he moves up but the talk pre-season was if he’d sweep every race in 250sx this year. I’m a bit shocked by all the mistakes he’s made.
You're shocked by an 18yr old making mistakes? It's not like he's yard sailing every other race either. They're him laying it down in a corner or getting caught up in something off the start
Chris_Buehler 4/17/2022 6:20am
4/17/2022 6:20am
Phil109 wrote:
Stewart used to run faster lap times on his 125 than the 250’s. If someone is that good it’s just the way it is. Unless you...
Stewart used to run faster lap times on his 125 than the 250’s. If someone is that good it’s just the way it is. Unless you want to throw them all on pit bikes. Lol
Just a recent example is Ferrandis. He had better times than most of the 450 field. He's not exactly setting the world on fire on a 450 indoors
2
2
Wiff3
Profile picture for user Wiff3
Posts
278
Joined
8/27/2009
Location
Bellefonte, PA US
Wiff3 4/17/2022 6:27am
4/17/2022 6:27am
If Jett tries to ride a 450 like he rides a 250, he's going to look like Sexton. Blazing fast, crashing his brains out too often.

450 is a diffent bike all together.
8
1
RaceFace58
Profile picture for user RaceFace58
Posts
832
Joined
2/6/2022
Location
Meriden, CT US
RaceFace58 4/17/2022 6:44am
4/17/2022 6:44am
gt80rider wrote:
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win...
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win titles, better get that done before Jett moves up...
RaceFace58 wrote:
Who won the 250 race? Not saying Jett won’t be a threat for wins when he moves up but the talk pre-season was if he’d sweep...
Who won the 250 race? Not saying Jett won’t be a threat for wins when he moves up but the talk pre-season was if he’d sweep every race in 250sx this year. I’m a bit shocked by all the mistakes he’s made.
Chris_Buehler wrote:
You're shocked by an 18yr old making mistakes? It's not like he's yard sailing every other race either. They're him laying it down in a corner...
You're shocked by an 18yr old making mistakes? It's not like he's yard sailing every other race either. They're him laying it down in a corner or getting caught up in something off the start
Yeah I’m a bit shocked. He’s an outdoor title holder. He’s the fastest 250 East guy by a lot. It was a legitimate question if he’d sweep the 250east races. What’s 18 got to do with it? His “mistake” years were supposed to be over at this point. He should be the favorite to REPEAT outdoors this year but I should expect lots of mistakes because he’s 18?
1
2
stone881
Profile picture for user stone881
Posts
866
Joined
12/26/2014
Location
Fruita, CO US
stone881 4/17/2022 8:21am
4/17/2022 8:21am
Premier class could be an open class, run whatever they want. That would be cool imo and allow manufacturers to produce whatever they see as optimal for racing and sales.
2
Leeham
Profile picture for user Leeham
Posts
1088
Joined
10/29/2018
Location
Rochester, WA US
Fantasy
3088th
Leeham 4/17/2022 10:38am
4/17/2022 10:38am
I don't know why me or anyone should reply to this guy. He comes up with the most stupid topics. Has routinely bad takes and is contrary to everyone. Dude needs help
2
1
tomlopez
Profile picture for user tomlopez
Posts
688
Joined
5/2/2021
Location
Saint Petersburg, FL US
tomlopez 4/17/2022 11:56am
4/17/2022 11:56am
I think people think since the bike has less HP, someone riding it should always go slower than someone of equal talent riding a 450. But on some tracks, especially tracks that just got rained on, managing the power of a huge 450 is more of a detriment than it is an advantage.
2
kaidodragon 4/17/2022 12:04pm
4/17/2022 12:04pm
Here is the list of the 10 fastests laps and when they were done for both classes

250

1.20.850 = Jett Lawrence (lap 10)
1.21.641 = Christian Craig (lap 3)
1.22.163 = Hunter Lawrence (lap 6)
1.22.573 = Michael Mosiman (lap 5)
1.23.000 = Austin Forkner (lap 4)
1.23.148 = Nate Trasher (lap 5)
1.23.700 = RJ Hampshire (lap 9)
1.23 838 = Jo Shimoda (lap 1)
1.24.031 = Pierce Brown (lap 4)
1.24.769 = Mitchell Oldenburg (lap 4)

450

1.21.279 = Chase Sexton (lap 2)
1.21.547 = Jason Anderson (lap 5)
1.22.128 = Justin Barcia (lap 4)
1.22.157 = Eli Tomac (lap 2)
1.22.408 = Cooper Webb (lap 1)
1.22.661 = Malcolm Stewart (lap 4)
1.22.982 = Marvin Musquin (lap 6)
1.23.630 = Justin Brayton (lap 4)
1.24.332 = Kyle Chisholm (lap 4)
1.25.033 = Brandon Hartranft (lap 3)
3
nousername
Profile picture for user nousername
Posts
86
Joined
6/11/2021
Location
Box Springs, GA US
nousername 4/17/2022 1:48pm
4/17/2022 1:48pm
gt80rider wrote:
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win...
Jett was on rails late in the 250 main when the track definitely wasn't easy... for all the dudes in the 450 class looking to win titles, better get that done before Jett moves up...
agn5008 wrote:
I’ve heard this said so many times before and it rarely materializes. I’m not saying he won’t win titles because he probably will but so will...
I’ve heard this said so many times before and it rarely materializes. I’m not saying he won’t win titles because he probably will but so will other guys.
We hear the hype every year and then it doesn't seem to happen often but the difference with jett is when he moves up in 24 most of the top guys are gonna be gone and the ones that aint will be gone the following year. Thats only gonna leave sexton there and all the other guys he's already beating that moves up with him. Its all about timing.
nousername
Profile picture for user nousername
Posts
86
Joined
6/11/2021
Location
Box Springs, GA US
nousername 4/17/2022 1:55pm
4/17/2022 1:55pm
Phil109 wrote:
Stewart used to run faster lap times on his 125 than the 250’s. If someone is that good it’s just the way it is. Unless you...
Stewart used to run faster lap times on his 125 than the 250’s. If someone is that good it’s just the way it is. Unless you want to throw them all on pit bikes. Lol
Chris_Buehler wrote:
Just a recent example is Ferrandis. He had better times than most of the 450 field. He's not exactly setting the world on fire on a...
Just a recent example is Ferrandis. He had better times than most of the 450 field. He's not exactly setting the world on fire on a 450 indoors
The difference is fernandes moved up with when there was a lot of top guys in there prime. Jett will be moving up when most are retiring. He's not gonna be dealing with tomac roczen anderson webb mousquin.
1
skypig
Profile picture for user skypig
Posts
683
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Caloundra AU
skypig 4/17/2022 3:20pm
4/17/2022 3:20pm
A fast guy can stop crashing.
A slow guy is, slow.

Jet is 18yo.
He could keep making mistakes, and be one of the top guys.
Or
He might turn out to be a “great”.

We won’t have to wait too long to find out.
2
1
Chris_Buehler 4/17/2022 3:26pm
4/17/2022 3:26pm
RaceFace58 wrote:
Who won the 250 race? Not saying Jett won’t be a threat for wins when he moves up but the talk pre-season was if he’d sweep...
Who won the 250 race? Not saying Jett won’t be a threat for wins when he moves up but the talk pre-season was if he’d sweep every race in 250sx this year. I’m a bit shocked by all the mistakes he’s made.
Chris_Buehler wrote:
You're shocked by an 18yr old making mistakes? It's not like he's yard sailing every other race either. They're him laying it down in a corner...
You're shocked by an 18yr old making mistakes? It's not like he's yard sailing every other race either. They're him laying it down in a corner or getting caught up in something off the start
RaceFace58 wrote:
Yeah I’m a bit shocked. He’s an outdoor title holder. He’s the fastest 250 East guy by a lot. It was a legitimate question if he’d...
Yeah I’m a bit shocked. He’s an outdoor title holder. He’s the fastest 250 East guy by a lot. It was a legitimate question if he’d sweep the 250east races. What’s 18 got to do with it? His “mistake” years were supposed to be over at this point. He should be the favorite to REPEAT outdoors this year but I should expect lots of mistakes because he’s 18?
You watch outdoors? These mistakes he makes in sx you don't see him make in mx at all. So he's supposed to completely mature and controlled with his riding at 18?

Post a reply to: 250 vs 450 laptimes