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My customer referenced has access to full factory engines... at a very steep price
Little side story
Moto3 - formerly 125 moto gp.
Aprilia (derbi) set a benchmark of excellence for years. In the very tail end of the class, the rsa125 was 56hp
The best ktm was 48
And the best honda ever got to was 46
Instead of trying compete and improve (ktm staffed up with a new engine director and had something in the works that never saw light of day) honda campaigned to change the rules to 250f.. and suceeded
Amazingly... they also got the initial rules to be a honda spec class! Imagine that - the gp went from no one running a honda tobbfor huge money you were required to buy a honda!
In early testing the engine was hoovering around 45-46 hp and breaking frequently...and the rule makers caved to pressures to allow other manufacturers. Immediately the ktm came in over 50 hp and more reliable and mahindra followed suit tickling 53-54 also reliable
Honda had to get a special revison to the rules so honda equiped teams would be allowed to replace timing chains (as originally it was meant to go a season or x amount of races) because they were breaking... and thet also got the rpm limit set lower via rule mandate
And all the change... the first couple seasons the 250 4t set slower times on the same tracks as the aprilia 125
I havent followed it for last 2-3 years now... not sure where its at now
We have limited CC/Engine types due to politics.
Why is there an actual fear over equal displacement racing? There is, its a literal fear of what might happen. I propose they know what would happen, it's already happened in the past. Albeit the gap between 4 and 2 stroke has never been closer than it is now, I would also reckon its because of the lack of 2 stroke R&D. See Honda's ARC 2 stroke motor of 1997. See the watercraft/snomobile industry pushing tech, getting California GREEN sticker etc., the tech is far from dead.
They still make more power per CC.
Has anyone seen the 96hp CR500 around?
Let the electric bikes run in the open class no restrictions until they get further developed and we can classify them.
The Shop
electric really is the future....
And man it bums me out!
Rennie Scaysbrook | October 18, 2017
E-mobility, hybrid technology and the not-so-soon end of combustion engines
Stefan Pierer
Pierer’s position is one that will see KTM at the forefront of electric motorcycle technology in the coming years.
KTM CEO Stefan Pierer today laid out some of KTM’s future plans that will see a massive shift towards electrically-powered machines and machine sharing amongst consumers. He made the comments at the media launch for the 2018 KTM Freeride E-XC electric enduro machine in Salzburg, Austria, and his thoughts clearly show KTM is moving to a future that combines the classic internal combustion engine with hybrid and electric technology.
Pierer said he doesn’t believe the internal combustion engine is doomed, saying, “You have to take into consideration where the raw materials are coming from (to make the batteries for electric vehicles). Secondly, nobody has the knowledge how to handle it (batteries) after accidents. In my opinion, as a bridge technology for the next decade, it will be the hybrid. It’s a mild hybrid and combustion engine. I think the combustion engine will not disappear in the next 20, 30 years.
“The power (electric) two-wheeler is the solution for urban mobility in the future,” Pierer said. “So, in that, we have a clear focus and a clear strategy. Part of our very successful existing sport motorcycling program in off-road or on-road, we are developing two-wheelers on an electric base between 250, 400 watts up to 15 kilowatts. That’s the range. We think in 10 years’ time in Europe at least 50 percent of the total fleet is electric. That’s a clear strategy, a long-term strategy, but to afford it, you need a very successful, classic combustion (engine) program to earn the money you can invest in the future.”
2018 KTM Freeride E-XC First Look
KTM’s Freeride E-XC is the first of many new models to feature an electric powertrain.
Bicycles and motorcycles, together as one
That future appears to be a one where the bicycle and the motorcycle will once again meet at a crossroads, much like they did at the start of the 20th century, as KTM has recently collaborated with German e-mobility/electric bicycle manufacturer PEXCO.
“The motorcycle is stepping down and the bicycle is going up, and they (will) meet each other. Then it’s like setting up a family. It was our long-term strategy to step in the electric e-bikes segment, but we didn’t have the plan to do it that quickly,” said Pierer. “Our vision and future development program is a small motorcycle in the future, with a pedal. That’s the long-term vision. In the next couple of years for sure, we will do a lot in that segment.”
Hubert Trunkenpolz, KTM’s Chief Sales Officer, also outlined KTM’s plans to integrate a fractional ownership, where you essentially rent a machine for an indefinite period with other users, thus sharing the cost.
“Electric-driven cars are expensive, so are motorcycles,” Trunkenpolz said. “We tried to find a smart solution to make the motorcycle or the Freeride E-XC easily accessible. We defined the price of 7,500 Euro retail. That is pretty much on the same level as the 250 Freeride F.
“We are on the same level in terms of the price. What we then did, is the battery and the charger comes extra (for the customer). We developed a lease system where customers can lease the battery and the charger with less than 50 Euros a month. They basically run about four years.
“This is around what fuel costs in a standard combustion engine. So, there is no disadvantage for a buyer who is buying a Freeride E-XC. There is another advantage for the consumer certainly because battery technology is rapidly changing and improving, so that battery the we introduced today has 50 percent more capacity than the last one. Therefore, the consumers can be always on top of the latest technology in changing batteries.”
The death of the 50
KTM
This wonderful little machine’s days are numbered.
One area of the market that will see substantial change and has launched the racing career of many an off-road champion is the 50cc motocross category, with KTM’s 50 SX machine right at the forefront of race wins. This will change however, with Pierer stating that the SX will make way for an all electric kids dirtbike.
“Within the next one or two years, we are already planning to bring the next product which will be a minibike for kids. We will replace the current 50cc range by so-called e-mini or ESX. So, two models in one that will replace that combustion two-stroke engine that we have in place at the moment.
“The very next one is then a crossover between bicycling and motorcycling. We call it the X-bike. Then on top of that, and this is already started and we will come to the market already next season, is electric bicycles under the brand name Husqvarna.”
It looks like there are interesting times indeed ahead for KTM and Husqvarna.
Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes
KTM (and others) are investing in electrics, just follow the financial commitment.
Why do I say that? Because I've ridden and raced nearly everything for 30 years, including a 250F with a well-built motor, and based on what I know and have experienced, there is NO F'N WAY IN HELL A 250F IS EVEN F'N CLOSE TO A 250 2-STROKE.
I'll give you a 350F, sure. I'll even concede that for many riders, even most riders, a 250F will be "faster" because it is more usable (also, the skill set required to ride a 2-stroke is a dying art.) Hell, give me a few weekends to get used to one and I might be faster on a little thumper.
But for Pro riders with pro skill sets? You are still going to lose several HP and close to 10 Pound Feet of torque to the ring-dinger if you ride a 250F, and the benefits of power delivery aren't going to matter very much.
Put a top-10 capable guy on a full works 250 and see what happens. I guarantee you Osborne, the Martin Bros, et. al. will notice.
That ktm 250f package turns faster laps than a stock 350 - with customers owning both at national pro level.
In fact the 350 becomes the practice bike to be comparable to race 250 at a far cheaper cost...I wont detail all the reasons why this is in this thread... but the 350 has more hp by a little.
Torque number is meaningless when comparing 250 2t vs 4t
Power is the comparable item that matters - more notable is avg power over a power range.
250fs have a far wider usable power range than a 2t... making them easier to ride as well as faster in accleration in mx use. In a street bike/kart where gear shift points are easier to keep optimized... 2t has plenty of power width
Anyways. I love most of this discussion...if you guys caught the twmx interview with allredge... he lays out a great case for the 2t even in the 450 class
Pit Row
" Whats stopping amateur racers from buying YZ/KTM's/ old jap 2 strokes and racing to their hearts content? Definitely not MX Sports, or the 4 japanese OEM's."
Well in Australia, as I'm sure you know...it's MA...which obviously stands for motorcycling asphyxiated.
Go race.... 1. Join a club $25 to $150 depends..
2. Get a race licence $ 340
3 Enter a race entry fee $40 to $150 depends.. +
Medical levy $25
Flag levy. $10
Rider levy. $10
Gate levy. $5
Maybe get one 4 lap practice session and 3 X 12 min motos and along the way endure all the bullshit
and red tape to join a club, get a license enter a race ,apply for a race number, make sure that you have a clearly visible back number ! Or else !!
OR !!!
Go to a ride park, sign the form, pay the $50 and ride as much as you want, when you want during the course of the day...race your mates, chase that fast guy, have fun, don't get yelled at, don't go to any pointless riders briefings, don't get told you can't ride because you don't have your own personal flag marshal, ... Ahhhhh, what's the point..
I still race but I really should question my sanity..
I did have the urge to get out and do a round of Amcross last year, when you add in the cost of a 1 event licence, club licence, entry fee and all the usual race weekend expenses i just gave up and watched instead.
But i think that's a discussion for a different thread
They'd just give up motorsports completely and move to something equally noisy??? The 50,000 odd people that sit in the stands every saturday night plus however many 100's of thousands at home would become fans of something else instanty?
Most watch because of the spectacle, the excitement, the danger and the racing. If that is still around you actually think the lack of noise would deter everyone? Or would it maybe encourage others who were scared off by the big obnoxious noisy machines to have a look at it one night?
Derek Harris is right, the extra displacement for 4 strokes was supposed to allow them to develop whilst still being competitive from the start...times up and fair's fair!
The sport is being run like a cartel as you say...
If KTM and Husky were to build a 300 to 450 two stroke and put top riders on them, they should have every right to do so, even though they probably wouldn't .
We don't have parity due to entirely corrupt and unsportsmanlike attitudes from those entities able to wield power over our sport. Who's sport is this anyway? The rider"s the fan's or Honda's?
It's a 250 class and it's a 450 class, all the rest of it is just straight out corruption...no honesty ...no integrity
Policies of exclusion seldom benefit anyone other than a minority that want a majority excluded
I thought about the mx2 class....if I were to race that it would be on a 250 two stroke for dead certain.
I ride a 250 two stroke way better than my 450 four stroke, just because of my past history....all two stroke since day 1.
Conversely , most of the guys in the mx2 class are quite young and most would have been racing 4 strokes since they first got on a full sized bike, two strokes would be somewhat foreign to them.
There is also the matter of chioice from manufacturers, most of the mx 2 privateers at least have a shop deal ,so if they are on Honda , Kawasaki or Suziki they have no option if they want to stay with a helpful and supportive dealer...no biggie but something to be considered.
If I am to race all the Nationals next year, it will be in the MX1 class....to be brutally honest, it is because I would never have to qualify to make the field when they are lucky to even get 30 entries for that class at most rounds, the $300 entry fee may have something to do with that, if you don't qualify you paid $300 for a20 min practise session!
If I race the mx 1 class, it will probably be on a 300 kitted two stroke
One thing is guaranteed though. We will find out which one of us is right. Because like it or not, E bikes are coming, and they're going to be good.
The excuses are long gone now. Let them in.
Even if the 2 stroke had a slight peak hp advantage it wouldnt be enough to offset the wider power spread of the 4 stroke. It needs a massive power advantage, which it cant really get because the top 250fs are making huge numbers.
Yall need to be a little more scientific with the claims. Anyone can say "oh yea bro it makes way more power all over" when all they are noticing is that one bike is louder so it "feels" like they are going faster. I think Joe Dirt uses the same metric to measure the performance of his car
I know this is from MXA, but still...
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