250 vs 250

5/29/2018 6:02am
chump6784 wrote:
The factory 4 strokes in Australia are no where near the level of the US. The gap between privateer and factory is much smaller in Australia...
The factory 4 strokes in Australia are no where near the level of the US. The gap between privateer and factory is much smaller in Australia than the US.
Still, I think most would choose the 4 stroke but it would be nice for riders to have the option
I wouldnt be so sure about that....
My customer referenced has access to full factory engines... at a very steep price

5/29/2018 6:15am
VET176 wrote:
I've enjoyed reading the last 3 pages. But let's not fuck around anymore. Honda don't want this to happen. So it won't happen.
Very true....more so than people realize

Little side story
Moto3 - formerly 125 moto gp.
Aprilia (derbi) set a benchmark of excellence for years. In the very tail end of the class, the rsa125 was 56hp
The best ktm was 48
And the best honda ever got to was 46

Instead of trying compete and improve (ktm staffed up with a new engine director and had something in the works that never saw light of day) honda campaigned to change the rules to 250f.. and suceeded

Amazingly... they also got the initial rules to be a honda spec class! Imagine that - the gp went from no one running a honda tobbfor huge money you were required to buy a honda!

In early testing the engine was hoovering around 45-46 hp and breaking frequently...and the rule makers caved to pressures to allow other manufacturers. Immediately the ktm came in over 50 hp and more reliable and mahindra followed suit tickling 53-54 also reliable

Honda had to get a special revison to the rules so honda equiped teams would be allowed to replace timing chains (as originally it was meant to go a season or x amount of races) because they were breaking... and thet also got the rpm limit set lower via rule mandate

And all the change... the first couple seasons the 250 4t set slower times on the same tracks as the aprilia 125

I havent followed it for last 2-3 years now... not sure where its at now
kott0n
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5/29/2018 10:17am
Other racing bodies limit CC/Engine types primarily because of safety.

We have limited CC/Engine types due to politics.

Why is there an actual fear over equal displacement racing? There is, its a literal fear of what might happen. I propose they know what would happen, it's already happened in the past. Albeit the gap between 4 and 2 stroke has never been closer than it is now, I would also reckon its because of the lack of 2 stroke R&D. See Honda's ARC 2 stroke motor of 1997. See the watercraft/snomobile industry pushing tech, getting California GREEN sticker etc., the tech is far from dead.

They still make more power per CC.

Has anyone seen the 96hp CR500 around?
b_kowalsk
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5/29/2018 10:40am
The dumbest thing was getting rid of the 125cc class, now our feeder class has 50hp bikes with broad power delivery. It was good to allow the four strokes an advantage in order to be developed but it is time to open the rules back up to allow two stroke development again. 125cc-250cc-open classes.
Let the electric bikes run in the open class no restrictions until they get further developed and we can classify them.

The Shop

TJMX947
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5/29/2018 11:17am
Its safe to say any post Derek Harris starts or participates in is gold. Another thing, how funny would it be if DC had covert username that he used to post/troll on these threads?
5/29/2018 11:55am
b_kowalsk wrote:
The dumbest thing was getting rid of the 125cc class, now our feeder class has 50hp bikes with broad power delivery. It was good to allow...
The dumbest thing was getting rid of the 125cc class, now our feeder class has 50hp bikes with broad power delivery. It was good to allow the four strokes an advantage in order to be developed but it is time to open the rules back up to allow two stroke development again. 125cc-250cc-open classes.
Let the electric bikes run in the open class no restrictions until they get further developed and we can classify them.
X2
5/29/2018 11:56am
on that point ^^^

electric really is the future....

And man it bums me out!
40
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5/29/2018 3:24pm Edited Date/Time 5/29/2018 3:43pm
Stefan Pierer Outlines KTM’s Massive Electric Future
Rennie Scaysbrook | October 18, 2017
E-mobility, hybrid technology and the not-so-soon end of combustion engines
Stefan Pierer
Pierer’s position is one that will see KTM at the forefront of electric motorcycle technology in the coming years.
KTM CEO Stefan Pierer today laid out some of KTM’s future plans that will see a massive shift towards electrically-powered machines and machine sharing amongst consumers. He made the comments at the media launch for the 2018 KTM Freeride E-XC electric enduro machine in Salzburg, Austria, and his thoughts clearly show KTM is moving to a future that combines the classic internal combustion engine with hybrid and electric technology.

Pierer said he doesn’t believe the internal combustion engine is doomed, saying, “You have to take into consideration where the raw materials are coming from (to make the batteries for electric vehicles). Secondly, nobody has the knowledge how to handle it (batteries) after accidents. In my opinion, as a bridge technology for the next decade, it will be the hybrid. It’s a mild hybrid and combustion engine. I think the combustion engine will not disappear in the next 20, 30 years.

“The power (electric) two-wheeler is the solution for urban mobility in the future,” Pierer said. “So, in that, we have a clear focus and a clear strategy. Part of our very successful existing sport motorcycling program in off-road or on-road, we are developing two-wheelers on an electric base between 250, 400 watts up to 15 kilowatts. That’s the range. We think in 10 years’ time in Europe at least 50 percent of the total fleet is electric. That’s a clear strategy, a long-term strategy, but to afford it, you need a very successful, classic combustion (engine) program to earn the money you can invest in the future.”

2018 KTM Freeride E-XC First Look
KTM’s Freeride E-XC is the first of many new models to feature an electric powertrain.
Bicycles and motorcycles, together as one
That future appears to be a one where the bicycle and the motorcycle will once again meet at a crossroads, much like they did at the start of the 20th century, as KTM has recently collaborated with German e-mobility/electric bicycle manufacturer PEXCO.

“The motorcycle is stepping down and the bicycle is going up, and they (will) meet each other. Then it’s like setting up a family. It was our long-term strategy to step in the electric e-bikes segment, but we didn’t have the plan to do it that quickly,” said Pierer. “Our vision and future development program is a small motorcycle in the future, with a pedal. That’s the long-term vision. In the next couple of years for sure, we will do a lot in that segment.”

Hubert Trunkenpolz, KTM’s Chief Sales Officer, also outlined KTM’s plans to integrate a fractional ownership, where you essentially rent a machine for an indefinite period with other users, thus sharing the cost.

“Electric-driven cars are expensive, so are motorcycles,” Trunkenpolz said. “We tried to find a smart solution to make the motorcycle or the Freeride E-XC easily accessible. We defined the price of 7,500 Euro retail. That is pretty much on the same level as the 250 Freeride F.

“We are on the same level in terms of the price. What we then did, is the battery and the charger comes extra (for the customer). We developed a lease system where customers can lease the battery and the charger with less than 50 Euros a month. They basically run about four years.

“This is around what fuel costs in a standard combustion engine. So, there is no disadvantage for a buyer who is buying a Freeride E-XC. There is another advantage for the consumer certainly because battery technology is rapidly changing and improving, so that battery the we introduced today has 50 percent more capacity than the last one. Therefore, the consumers can be always on top of the latest technology in changing batteries.”

The death of the 50
KTM
This wonderful little machine’s days are numbered.
One area of the market that will see substantial change and has launched the racing career of many an off-road champion is the 50cc motocross category, with KTM’s 50 SX machine right at the forefront of race wins. This will change however, with Pierer stating that the SX will make way for an all electric kids dirtbike.

“Within the next one or two years, we are already planning to bring the next product which will be a minibike for kids. We will replace the current 50cc range by so-called e-mini or ESX. So, two models in one that will replace that combustion two-stroke engine that we have in place at the moment.

“The very next one is then a crossover between bicycling and motorcycling. We call it the X-bike. Then on top of that, and this is already started and we will come to the market already next season, is electric bicycles under the brand name Husqvarna.”

It looks like there are interesting times indeed ahead for KTM and Husqvarna.

40
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5/29/2018 3:31pm Edited Date/Time 5/29/2018 3:40pm
The future is in electrics.
Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes
KTM (and others) are investing in electrics, just follow the financial commitment.
mattyhamz2
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5/29/2018 3:41pm
999 wrote:
I really don't get the obsession with two strokes, this is coming from someone who rides a CR125 and an RM250 and has never owned a...
I really don't get the obsession with two strokes, this is coming from someone who rides a CR125 and an RM250 and has never owned a four stroke. They're not cheaper to maintain. A top end lasts half as long and costs the exact same. atleast $50 worth of premix a month, spark plugs every handful of rides...They're fun and light weight, but way harder to ride at the limit and no where near as fast at the pro level. What's so great about them? I think it's just the vets on a nostalgia trip hoping for the good ole days.
seth505 wrote:
I’m trying to digest your post but none of it smells right. Top end rebuilds the same price? No You use $600 in premix a year...
I’m trying to digest your post but none of it smells right.
Top end rebuilds the same price? No
You use $600 in premix a year?
You go through spark plugs every half dozen rides?

Seriously! I just completely rebuilt my 05 YZ250 for less than what it costs someone to have a shop rebuild a top end on their 4 stroke. We've also got an 05 KX250 that's had the same spark plug for quite a few years now. Only reason you're going through plugs on a 2 stroke is if you keep fouling them. The top end for my YZ was $130 including gaskets, rings, piston kit and top end bearing. Throw in oil and coolant and I'm at $155. Try doing that with a 4 stroke
blackdiamond
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5/29/2018 5:11pm
40 wrote:
The future is in electrics. Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes KTM (and others) are investing in electrics...
The future is in electrics.
Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes
KTM (and others) are investing in electrics, just follow the financial commitment.
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as watching paint dry)
Falcon
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5/29/2018 5:24pm
I seriously want to ride a factory 250F. There must be some serious, Earth-shattering voodoo magic going on in there.

Why do I say that? Because I've ridden and raced nearly everything for 30 years, including a 250F with a well-built motor, and based on what I know and have experienced, there is NO F'N WAY IN HELL A 250F IS EVEN F'N CLOSE TO A 250 2-STROKE.

I'll give you a 350F, sure. I'll even concede that for many riders, even most riders, a 250F will be "faster" because it is more usable (also, the skill set required to ride a 2-stroke is a dying art.) Hell, give me a few weekends to get used to one and I might be faster on a little thumper.

But for Pro riders with pro skill sets? You are still going to lose several HP and close to 10 Pound Feet of torque to the ring-dinger if you ride a 250F, and the benefits of power delivery aren't going to matter very much.

Put a top-10 capable guy on a full works 250 and see what happens. I guarantee you Osborne, the Martin Bros, et. al. will notice.
KDXGarage
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5/29/2018 6:03pm
40 wrote:
The future is in electrics. Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes KTM (and others) are investing in electrics...
The future is in electrics.
Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes
KTM (and others) are investing in electrics, just follow the financial commitment.
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as...
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as watching paint dry)
Watch Formula E car racing to get a taste of electric racing.
-MAVERICK-
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5/29/2018 6:22pm
40 wrote:
The future is in electrics. Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes KTM (and others) are investing in electrics...
The future is in electrics.
Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes
KTM (and others) are investing in electrics, just follow the financial commitment.
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as...
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as watching paint dry)
KDXGarage wrote:
Watch Formula E car racing to get a taste of electric racing.
The technology is cool, no doubt about that. Racing on the other hand is so boring. Haven't kept up with it. Do they still have 2 cars in order to complete a race? Driver switching cars at the halfway point? I find that pretty stupid. Can't be cheap to run/build 2 race cars.
5/29/2018 6:26pm
haydos25 wrote:
So if the riders aren't going to go any faster on a 2 stroke like you say, whats the point in making them legal? The riders...
So if the riders aren't going to go any faster on a 2 stroke like you say, whats the point in making them legal? The riders wont ride them anyways, they'll ride what makes them faster, its the nature of the game.

If the argument is to get privateers on 2 strokes for economical reasons then i understand that. But how do you do that and stop TLD and Star for example building up a massive dollar 2 stroke for their hot shoe riders and leaving the struggling privateer disadvantaged once again?

The privateer is always going to be f'd, they always have. The one bright spot for them at the moment is that the gap between a factory 450 and a stock 450 has never been smaller. If money is an issue, step up and ride the big class, chances are this year your results will be so much better anyways given the attrition, you may even end up on one of the factory bikes, Just ask A Ray.

Actually, that's easy. 2 strokes have to remain stock, it's the way it's been in other countries. Pipe and suspension is the only thing they can...
Actually, that's easy. 2 strokes have to remain stock, it's the way it's been in other countries. Pipe and suspension is the only thing they can change.
If the two stroke is so "outdated" and uses such "primitive" technology why would the OEM's be so intimidated by letting riders mod their bikes? If...
If the two stroke is so "outdated" and uses such "primitive" technology why would the OEM's be so intimidated by letting riders mod their bikes?

If you listen to some of the critics they will tell you two strokes are a joke so what is there to be afraid of?
It's political. You know that. Can't accept it though. Keep on preaching.
5/29/2018 6:34pm
Falcon wrote:
I seriously want to ride a factory 250F. There must be some serious, Earth-shattering voodoo magic going on in there. Why do I say that? Because...
I seriously want to ride a factory 250F. There must be some serious, Earth-shattering voodoo magic going on in there.

Why do I say that? Because I've ridden and raced nearly everything for 30 years, including a 250F with a well-built motor, and based on what I know and have experienced, there is NO F'N WAY IN HELL A 250F IS EVEN F'N CLOSE TO A 250 2-STROKE.

I'll give you a 350F, sure. I'll even concede that for many riders, even most riders, a 250F will be "faster" because it is more usable (also, the skill set required to ride a 2-stroke is a dying art.) Hell, give me a few weekends to get used to one and I might be faster on a little thumper.

But for Pro riders with pro skill sets? You are still going to lose several HP and close to 10 Pound Feet of torque to the ring-dinger if you ride a 250F, and the benefits of power delivery aren't going to matter very much.

Put a top-10 capable guy on a full works 250 and see what happens. I guarantee you Osborne, the Martin Bros, et. al. will notice.
My best ktm 250f to date makes more hp than my best yz250 to date (in mx form)

That ktm 250f package turns faster laps than a stock 350 - with customers owning both at national pro level.
In fact the 350 becomes the practice bike to be comparable to race 250 at a far cheaper cost...I wont detail all the reasons why this is in this thread... but the 350 has more hp by a little.

Torque number is meaningless when comparing 250 2t vs 4t

Power is the comparable item that matters - more notable is avg power over a power range.

250fs have a far wider usable power range than a 2t... making them easier to ride as well as faster in accleration in mx use. In a street bike/kart where gear shift points are easier to keep optimized... 2t has plenty of power width

Anyways. I love most of this discussion...if you guys caught the twmx interview with allredge... he lays out a great case for the 2t even in the 450 class
mb
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5/29/2018 6:47pm
Electronic propulsion will be the death of all forms of Motorsport, including this one.
PJRAUS
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5/29/2018 6:54pm
FARANG wrote:
250 vs 250 would be cool. Privateers can be more competitive on a lower budget. 2 stroke fans get something to cheer. It encourages continued development...
250 vs 250 would be cool.

Privateers can be more competitive on a lower budget.
2 stroke fans get something to cheer.
It encourages continued development of 2 stroke bikes.
Provides an extra layer of things to analyze, talk about.
4 strokes would still win because the big teams with the best riders and huge budgets will still ride them.

I really don't see the downside, other than potential embarrassment if KTM/Husky put a top rider on one and he started winning or even podiuming consistently. I think that is the big fear that is stopping this happening. The big 4 don't want to risk more people going 2 stroke as they stopped developing theirs more than a decade ago so they'd be way behind the curve. Better to legislate them off the line with the double displacement rule and then everyone can say 2 strokes are old, uncool, nostalgic etc.
Absolutely friggin' nailed it!
PJRAUS
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5/29/2018 7:17pm
haydos25 wrote:
Can you not race a 2 stroke 125/150/250/300/500 or a TM etc. at the amateur level in the US? Whats stopping amateur racers from buying YZ/KTM's/...
Can you not race a 2 stroke 125/150/250/300/500 or a TM etc. at the amateur level in the US?

Whats stopping amateur racers from buying YZ/KTM's/ old jap 2 strokes and racing to their hearts content? Definitely not MX Sports, or the 4 japanese OEM's.

If people really love the sport and want to race a 2 stroke on a budget there are ways to do it. The downturn in participation in my opinion has just as much to do with changes in society as it does with the bikes themselves. Its an expensive sport, it always has been, but theres just so many more options out there for people to spend there free time/money on these days. Without even getting into the track closures/public liability issues which is a whole other topic.

" Whats stopping amateur racers from buying YZ/KTM's/ old jap 2 strokes and racing to their hearts content? Definitely not MX Sports, or the 4 japanese OEM's."

Well in Australia, as I'm sure you know...it's MA...which obviously stands for motorcycling asphyxiated.

Go race.... 1. Join a club $25 to $150 depends..
2. Get a race licence $ 340
3 Enter a race entry fee $40 to $150 depends.. +
Medical levy $25
Flag levy. $10
Rider levy. $10
Gate levy. $5
Maybe get one 4 lap practice session and 3 X 12 min motos and along the way endure all the bullshit
and red tape to join a club, get a license enter a race ,apply for a race number, make sure that you have a clearly visible back number ! Or else !!

OR !!!

Go to a ride park, sign the form, pay the $50 and ride as much as you want, when you want during the course of the day...race your mates, chase that fast guy, have fun, don't get yelled at, don't go to any pointless riders briefings, don't get told you can't ride because you don't have your own personal flag marshal, ... Ahhhhh, what's the point..

I still race but I really should question my sanity..
haydos25
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5/29/2018 7:23pm
PJRAUS wrote:
" Whats stopping amateur racers from buying YZ/KTM's/ old jap 2 strokes and racing to their hearts content? Definitely not MX Sports, or the 4 japanese...

" Whats stopping amateur racers from buying YZ/KTM's/ old jap 2 strokes and racing to their hearts content? Definitely not MX Sports, or the 4 japanese OEM's."

Well in Australia, as I'm sure you know...it's MA...which obviously stands for motorcycling asphyxiated.

Go race.... 1. Join a club $25 to $150 depends..
2. Get a race licence $ 340
3 Enter a race entry fee $40 to $150 depends.. +
Medical levy $25
Flag levy. $10
Rider levy. $10
Gate levy. $5
Maybe get one 4 lap practice session and 3 X 12 min motos and along the way endure all the bullshit
and red tape to join a club, get a license enter a race ,apply for a race number, make sure that you have a clearly visible back number ! Or else !!

OR !!!

Go to a ride park, sign the form, pay the $50 and ride as much as you want, when you want during the course of the day...race your mates, chase that fast guy, have fun, don't get yelled at, don't go to any pointless riders briefings, don't get told you can't ride because you don't have your own personal flag marshal, ... Ahhhhh, what's the point..

I still race but I really should question my sanity..
Not going to get an argument from me. I haven't raced in a few years for exactly those reasons, i must admit life has gotten in the way as well so the bike has been parked quite a bit lately anyways.

I did have the urge to get out and do a round of Amcross last year, when you add in the cost of a 1 event licence, club licence, entry fee and all the usual race weekend expenses i just gave up and watched instead.

But i think that's a discussion for a different thread
racerx317
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5/29/2018 7:26pm
40 wrote:
The future is in electrics. Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes KTM (and others) are investing in electrics...
The future is in electrics.
Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes
KTM (and others) are investing in electrics, just follow the financial commitment.
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as...
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as watching paint dry)
100% agree... good luck filling stadiums to watch glorified bicycles. I’ve been around moto most of my life and a complete or majority turn to E-Bikes would be the end for me. It may be fun to ride one from time to time, but the Motorsports fan base would never support that change to fill stadiums. Final nail in that coffin...
haydos25
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5/29/2018 7:35pm
40 wrote:
The future is in electrics. Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes KTM (and others) are investing in electrics...
The future is in electrics.
Long term, the same fate awaits 4 strokes as what happened to 2 strokes
KTM (and others) are investing in electrics, just follow the financial commitment.
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as...
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as watching paint dry)
racerx317 wrote:
100% agree... good luck filling stadiums to watch glorified bicycles. I’ve been around moto most of my life and a complete or majority turn to E-Bikes...
100% agree... good luck filling stadiums to watch glorified bicycles. I’ve been around moto most of my life and a complete or majority turn to E-Bikes would be the end for me. It may be fun to ride one from time to time, but the Motorsports fan base would never support that change to fill stadiums. Final nail in that coffin...
What would they watch then?

They'd just give up motorsports completely and move to something equally noisy??? The 50,000 odd people that sit in the stands every saturday night plus however many 100's of thousands at home would become fans of something else instanty?

Most watch because of the spectacle, the excitement, the danger and the racing. If that is still around you actually think the lack of noise would deter everyone? Or would it maybe encourage others who were scared off by the big obnoxious noisy machines to have a look at it one night?
PJRAUS
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5/29/2018 7:40pm
So Alldredge can run 8th but Anderson 10th or worse? Ok, got it. You finally answered my original question and confirmed you think Alldredge is faster...
So Alldredge can run 8th but Anderson 10th or worse? Ok, got it.

You finally answered my original question and confirmed you think Alldredge is faster than JA.
mxb2 wrote:
What race did you anderson race a 250 smoker in the pro class? Yea,. Got it. , Like you said he would go 1-1. Lol. Guess...
What race did you anderson race a 250 smoker in the pro class? Yea,. Got it. , Like you said he would go 1-1. Lol. Guess you forgot that part. Did alldredge finish 8th? Why dont you start a 2 stroke series since you are so pro 2 stroke,anti 4 stroke. Offer lotta $$ and top guys will come. Hmmm
That comment wasn't meant to be taken literally (but obviously you did anyway) Let me clarify a few things for you: 1. I am not pro...
That comment wasn't meant to be taken literally (but obviously you did anyway)

Let me clarify a few things for you:

1. I am not pro 2 stroke or anti 4 stroke.

2. I am in favor of the riders being able to compete on a bike of their choice.

3. I am against displacement handicaps.

4. I am against the OEM's and sanctioning bodies running the sport like a cartel.

5. I am against rules that make professional racing so expensive it kills rider participation (and eventually the sport as a whole)

The one thing that constantly amazes me is the same people that argue that two strokes are a "thing of the past" and are "never coming back" while insisting they are not competitive are the same idiots that argue that we should not allow equal displacement racing in the pro class because it wouldn't be fair.

You can pick one dumb idea but you can't pick both.
Exactly, I can't understand why anyone would be opposed to parity when they believe that two strokes are inferior,doesn't make any sense.
Derek Harris is right, the extra displacement for 4 strokes was supposed to allow them to develop whilst still being competitive from the start...times up and fair's fair!
The sport is being run like a cartel as you say...
If KTM and Husky were to build a 300 to 450 two stroke and put top riders on them, they should have every right to do so, even though they probably wouldn't .
We don't have parity due to entirely corrupt and unsportsmanlike attitudes from those entities able to wield power over our sport. Who's sport is this anyway? The rider"s the fan's or Honda's?
It's a 250 class and it's a 450 class, all the rest of it is just straight out corruption...no honesty ...no integrity
Policies of exclusion seldom benefit anyone other than a minority that want a majority excluded
PJRAUS
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5/29/2018 8:07pm
You once again somehow managed to completely miss the point. The sport doesn't need another series, it needs someone to correctly manage the series we already...
You once again somehow managed to completely miss the point.

The sport doesn't need another series, it needs someone to correctly manage the series we already have.

So based on your previous post, is it safe to say that you would be Ok with equal displacement racing in both classes regardless of engine type? (this is a yes or no question)
haydos25 wrote:
I say let them do it. Where you and i differ on opinion though is how many riders will actually choose to race the 2 strokes...
I say let them do it.

Where you and i differ on opinion though is how many riders will actually choose to race the 2 strokes given the option. I speak from experience given that is a viable option in Australia where virtually every rider in the country is a privateer, and the bulk of the 250 guys are on 4 strokes.
Well I'm seriously considering racing all the OZ nationals next year, I've got some massive improvement to make in my riding first though as I don't want to make a complete fool of myself and my riding right now is beyond shit...
I thought about the mx2 class....if I were to race that it would be on a 250 two stroke for dead certain.
I ride a 250 two stroke way better than my 450 four stroke, just because of my past history....all two stroke since day 1.
Conversely , most of the guys in the mx2 class are quite young and most would have been racing 4 strokes since they first got on a full sized bike, two strokes would be somewhat foreign to them.
There is also the matter of chioice from manufacturers, most of the mx 2 privateers at least have a shop deal ,so if they are on Honda , Kawasaki or Suziki they have no option if they want to stay with a helpful and supportive dealer...no biggie but something to be considered.
If I am to race all the Nationals next year, it will be in the MX1 class....to be brutally honest, it is because I would never have to qualify to make the field when they are lucky to even get 30 entries for that class at most rounds, the $300 entry fee may have something to do with that, if you don't qualify you paid $300 for a20 min practise session!
If I race the mx 1 class, it will probably be on a 300 kitted two stroke
PJRAUS
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5/29/2018 8:17pm
Bearuno wrote:
This /\ /\ /\ Especially the 2nd last paragraph. That the people that come out with such crap, don't realize just how stupid their 'argument' shows...
This /\ /\ /\

Especially the 2nd last paragraph. That the people that come out with such crap, don't realize just how stupid their 'argument' shows them to be, never ceases to amaze me. But, then again, they are, by their own writings, demonstrably, stupid.......

Equivalency - nothing more, nothing less. There will be no 'slaughter' of 4ts - they ceased to be foo foo (that they were, largely) bikes, decades ago. And, there will be manufacturers that will never produce 2 strokes again - fair enough, if that's their decision. But, they should Not have any say in handicapping bikes that they won't produce, to so tilt the scales towards what they want.
Precisely!
racerx317
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5/29/2018 9:41pm
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as...
The only problem with that theory is that watching silent electric bike racing would be like watching paint dry (and it would sound the same as watching paint dry)
racerx317 wrote:
100% agree... good luck filling stadiums to watch glorified bicycles. I’ve been around moto most of my life and a complete or majority turn to E-Bikes...
100% agree... good luck filling stadiums to watch glorified bicycles. I’ve been around moto most of my life and a complete or majority turn to E-Bikes would be the end for me. It may be fun to ride one from time to time, but the Motorsports fan base would never support that change to fill stadiums. Final nail in that coffin...
haydos25 wrote:
What would they watch then? They'd just give up motorsports completely and move to something equally noisy??? The 50,000 odd people that sit in the stands...
What would they watch then?

They'd just give up motorsports completely and move to something equally noisy??? The 50,000 odd people that sit in the stands every saturday night plus however many 100's of thousands at home would become fans of something else instanty?

Most watch because of the spectacle, the excitement, the danger and the racing. If that is still around you actually think the lack of noise would deter everyone? Or would it maybe encourage others who were scared off by the big obnoxious noisy machines to have a look at it one night?
Motorsports fans are attracted to the entirety of a motor sport such as the noise and smell of high performance motors. So yes, my strong opinion is that the total thrill and entertainment will be drastically minimized with E-bikes causing the fans to find another motorized sport.

haydos25
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Fantasy
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5/29/2018 10:02pm
racerx317 wrote:
Motorsports fans are attracted to the entirety of a motor sport such as the noise and smell of high performance motors. So yes, my strong opinion...
Motorsports fans are attracted to the entirety of a motor sport such as the noise and smell of high performance motors. So yes, my strong opinion is that the total thrill and entertainment will be drastically minimized with E-bikes causing the fans to find another motorized sport.

I guess we disagree then, because i feel MX fans are more fans of the rider and what they are capable of rather than the engine. Technique, skill, race craft, balls on the handle bars aggression will be there whether you poor fuel or charge a battery so the product in my opinion will remain similar. We're not talking drag racing/monster trucks here.

One thing is guaranteed though. We will find out which one of us is right. Because like it or not, E bikes are coming, and they're going to be good.
yz133rider
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Avondale, PA US
5/29/2018 10:09pm
My best ktm 250f to date makes more hp than my best yz250 to date (in mx form) That ktm 250f package turns faster laps than...
My best ktm 250f to date makes more hp than my best yz250 to date (in mx form)

That ktm 250f package turns faster laps than a stock 350 - with customers owning both at national pro level.
In fact the 350 becomes the practice bike to be comparable to race 250 at a far cheaper cost...I wont detail all the reasons why this is in this thread... but the 350 has more hp by a little.

Torque number is meaningless when comparing 250 2t vs 4t

Power is the comparable item that matters - more notable is avg power over a power range.

250fs have a far wider usable power range than a 2t... making them easier to ride as well as faster in accleration in mx use. In a street bike/kart where gear shift points are easier to keep optimized... 2t has plenty of power width

Anyways. I love most of this discussion...if you guys caught the twmx interview with allredge... he lays out a great case for the 2t even in the 450 class
Wow. Your best Ktm 250f making more peak hp than your best yz package is insane. Not only more peak hp but like you said a massively wider power spread and better deliverly.

The excuses are long gone now. Let them in.

Even if the 2 stroke had a slight peak hp advantage it wouldnt be enough to offset the wider power spread of the 4 stroke. It needs a massive power advantage, which it cant really get because the top 250fs are making huge numbers.

blackdiamond
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1363
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Location
Grapevine , TX US
5/29/2018 11:12pm
KDXGarage wrote:
Watch Formula E car racing to get a taste of electric racing.
I tried it once but I tapped out at about the 2 minute mark and changed the channel.
rmoto003
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926
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Gulf Shores, AL US
5/29/2018 11:36pm
yz133rider wrote:
Wow. Your best Ktm 250f making more peak hp than your best yz package is insane. Not only more peak hp but like you said a...
Wow. Your best Ktm 250f making more peak hp than your best yz package is insane. Not only more peak hp but like you said a massively wider power spread and better deliverly.

The excuses are long gone now. Let them in.

Even if the 2 stroke had a slight peak hp advantage it wouldnt be enough to offset the wider power spread of the 4 stroke. It needs a massive power advantage, which it cant really get because the top 250fs are making huge numbers.

Am i misunderstanding this? Are yall trying to say four strokes produce more power than two strokes CC to CC? thats simply not true.

Yall need to be a little more scientific with the claims. Anyone can say "oh yea bro it makes way more power all over" when all they are noticing is that one bike is louder so it "feels" like they are going faster. I think Joe Dirt uses the same metric to measure the performance of his car

I know this is from MXA, but still...







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