250 vs 250

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5/27/2018 10:37 AM

Allredge proves the case it would be fine to open the rules to say 250cc limit - no handicap for 4 stroke

I looked back at his qualifying times in 2015 and he was 2-8 seconds a lap off top qualifiier for 250 aboard his pc bike.

This year, in 2 races, he has been more than 10 seconds a lap off top 250f qualifier

It wont happen...

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5/27/2018 10:40 AM

Derek Harris wrote:

Allredge proves the case it would be fine to open the rules to say 250cc limit - no handicap for 4 stroke

I looked back at ...more

We've known this to be the case for years now. With the power spread and delivery of the 4 stroke and the big hp numbers the top bikes are making the 2 strokes will have a tough time being even let alone better.

2 stroke might make more peak but it also has to because its working in such a narrow range respectively and the traction disadvantage it has it massive too.

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5/27/2018 11:05 AM

Give it up. They don't care about two strokes.

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5/27/2018 2:12 PM

bowser977 wrote:

Give it up. They don't care about two strokes.

They do care about two strokes. Apparently they are terrified to allow equal displacement racing for some reason?

If they didn't care about two strokes the stupid displacement rule wouldn't exist in the first place.

For some reason you seem to have 2 stroke derangement syndrome and it clearly shows in all of your posts. Did some 15 year old schoolboy rider kick your ass at the track on a 125 or something?

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5/27/2018 2:15 PM

bowser977 wrote:

Give it up. They don't care about two strokes.

blackdiamond wrote:

They do care about two strokes. Apparently they are terrified to allow equal displacement racing for some reason?

If they ...more

This is an accurate post

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5/27/2018 2:43 PM

bowser977 wrote:

Give it up. They don't care about two strokes.

blackdiamond wrote:

They do care about two strokes. Apparently they are terrified to allow equal displacement racing for some reason?

If they ...more

No, it's just comical you think they care because they don't. The manufactures don't care, neither does the promoters. It's like holding on to an ex wife that's remarried, she isn't coming back.

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5/27/2018 2:48 PM

bowser977 wrote:

No, it's just comical you think they care because they don't. The manufactures don't care, neither does the promoters. It's ...more

So Honda, Kawi, and Suzuki would be ok
With allowing 250 2 strokes in the 250 4 stroke class? Easy as that then....

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"Shifting gears and passing queers" GL

5/27/2018 2:55 PM

He ain't the same rider he was in the PC 250 in 2015 either...

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5/27/2018 3:00 PM

slipdog wrote:

He ain't the same rider he was in the PC 250 in 2015 either...

Oh you're saying less PED's now!?

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5/27/2018 4:24 PM

bowser977 wrote:

Give it up. They don't care about two strokes.

blackdiamond wrote:

They do care about two strokes. Apparently they are terrified to allow equal displacement racing for some reason?

If they ...more

bowser977 wrote:

No, it's just comical you think they care because they don't. The manufactures don't care, neither does the promoters. It's ...more

What is "comical" as you put it, is how desperately uninformed you are.

I did a bit of research for you and found an interesting FACT: The KTM 300cc two stroke is the number one selling motorcycle in the history of the company.

So apparently LOTS of people care enough about two strokes to buy one?

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5/27/2018 4:55 PM

bowser977 wrote:

Give it up. They don't care about two strokes.

blackdiamond wrote:

They do care about two strokes. Apparently they are terrified to allow equal displacement racing for some reason?

If they ...more

bowser977 wrote:

No, it's just comical you think they care because they don't. The manufactures don't care, neither does the promoters. It's ...more

"They don't care "

" But won't let them race together ".

Yeah , your opinion seems legit. I usually see these kind of comments from dudes who sucked balls on riding 2 stroke's , so they slam em' any chance they get.

And BlackDiamond was correct on the 15yr old cleaning your clock from what I've heard. I'm sure DDavis could fill us in on that whole thing right? laughing

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

5/27/2018 5:07 PM

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. For starters he's not qualifying in the same session as the 250 guys any more so immediately he's on a different track, be it faster or slower who knows.

In 2015 Alldredge was a factory rider on a factory bike, this year he's a struggling privateer trying to make a comeback of some sort. Do you think he is as good today as he was 3 years ago? Thats alot of injuries, set backs and dissapointment ago.

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5/27/2018 5:13 PM

slipdog wrote:

He ain't the same rider he was in the PC 250 in 2015 either...

Jrewing wrote:

Oh you're saying less PED's now!?

I'm just saying I need some more time to get my timeline together.

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5/27/2018 5:32 PM

haydos25 wrote:

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. For starters he's not qualifying in the same session as the 250 guys any more so ...more

Not saying he is... but he isnt a slouch either. Id bet on a pc bike he would immediately go faster than he goes now.
Are you saying the top 5 250f riders would be faster on a 250 2t? I have lots of experience here... and can say no they wont.

But the fact is he is way off the times.

If horsepower ever mattered.. glen helen would be where. 250f top times in practice EITHER session werent far off 450...and chris was far off either

The privateer is getting fd. The gap is huge..not that they cant acquire the power, but they cant afford it for 12 rounds.



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5/27/2018 5:48 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

Not saying he is... but he isnt a slouch either. Id bet on a pc bike he would immediately go faster than he goes now.
Are you ...more

So if the riders aren't going to go any faster on a 2 stroke like you say, whats the point in making them legal? The riders wont ride them anyways, they'll ride what makes them faster, its the nature of the game.

If the argument is to get privateers on 2 strokes for economical reasons then i understand that. But how do you do that and stop TLD and Star for example building up a massive dollar 2 stroke for their hot shoe riders and leaving the struggling privateer disadvantaged once again?

The privateer is always going to be f'd, they always have. The one bright spot for them at the moment is that the gap between a factory 450 and a stock 450 has never been smaller. If money is an issue, step up and ride the big class, chances are this year your results will be so much better anyways given the attrition, you may even end up on one of the factory bikes, Just ask A Ray.

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5/27/2018 6:51 PM

haydos25 wrote:

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. For starters he's not qualifying in the same session as the 250 guys any more so ...more

Derek Harris wrote:

Not saying he is... but he isnt a slouch either. Id bet on a pc bike he would immediately go faster than he goes now.
Are you ...more

haydos25 wrote:

So if the riders aren't going to go any faster on a 2 stroke like you say, whats the point in making them legal? The riders ...more

Actually, that's easy. 2 strokes have to remain stock, it's the way it's been in other countries. Pipe and suspension is the only thing they can change.

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Don't be a 2 Stroke Racist. Join in the fight for equality. CC vs CC side by side.
We should no longer be concerned with color, size, stroke preferences or make. I'm not a 4 stroker, "not that there is anything wrong with it."

5/27/2018 7:03 PM

miedosoracing1 wrote:

Actually, that's easy. 2 strokes have to remain stock, it's the way it's been in other countries. Pipe and suspension is the ...more

And the AMA is responsible for policing these stock bikes? I'm a little skeptical they have the ability to do that.

Also, in those countries you speak of, what is the percentage of guys who are riding 2 strokes still? I know they still can in oz but its not as many as you would think, and i don't recall any at the Ausx Open indoors last year. Are two strokes still legal in Canada?

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5/27/2018 7:08 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

Not saying he is... but he isnt a slouch either. Id bet on a pc bike he would immediately go faster than he goes now.
Are you ...more

haydos25 wrote:

So if the riders aren't going to go any faster on a 2 stroke like you say, whats the point in making them legal? The riders ...more

miedosoracing1 wrote:

Actually, that's easy. 2 strokes have to remain stock, it's the way it's been in other countries. Pipe and suspension is the ...more

If the two stroke is so "outdated" and uses such "primitive" technology why would the OEM's be so intimidated by letting riders mod their bikes?

If you listen to some of the critics they will tell you two strokes are a joke so what is there to be afraid of?

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5/27/2018 7:15 PM

blackdiamond wrote:

If the two stroke is so "outdated" and uses such "primitive" technology why would the OEM's be so intimidated by letting ...more

My point was that Derek claimed that in the his professional opinion the top riders wouldn't be faster on them anyways, so why would they ride them even if they were legal?

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5/27/2018 7:27 PM

haydos25 wrote:

So if the riders aren't going to go any faster on a 2 stroke like you say, whats the point in making them legal? The riders ...more

miedosoracing1 wrote:

Actually, that's easy. 2 strokes have to remain stock, it's the way it's been in other countries. Pipe and suspension is the ...more

haydos25 wrote:

And the AMA is responsible for policing these stock bikes? I'm a little skeptical they have the ability to do that.

Also, in ...more

Very few guys ride 2 strokes in the mx2 class here in Australia, it's mostly 4 strokes. Interestingly though, last year the mx2 title came down to the final race at the final round between Wilson Todd on the factory yz250f and Egan Mastin on a privateer ktm 250sx. Mastin got the win and is on a factory ktm 4 stroke this year.
Also, a couple years ago when Kale Makeham was riding and winning on a two stroke both he and his mechanic said he would rather be on a 4 stroke but they could not afford to run one for a full season on a privateer budget.

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5/27/2018 7:34 PM

haydos25 wrote:

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. For starters he's not qualifying in the same session as the 250 guys any more so ...more

Derek Harris wrote:

Not saying he is... but he isnt a slouch either. Id bet on a pc bike he would immediately go faster than he goes now.
Are you ...more

haydos25 wrote:

So if the riders aren't going to go any faster on a 2 stroke like you say, whats the point in making them legal? The riders ...more

The “hot shoe 250” 2 stroke would be slower for the top guys. Avg power over the rpm width needed to ride is less on the 2 stroke, even if it made 60 hp

I cant comment on names too much, but i can tell you there are more than a “few” privateers who just cant afford a good 250f week after week. Most people dont realize how hard it is to make more hp that actually holds together AND makes the power late in the moto. Agains the top teams its not just power...but rpm more importantly. This is cubic dollars.

The 2 stroke arguement is simple.
Number1 - the 2 stroke existed because the rule said 125cc or 250cc.
For a set size... they were better. Not anymore - they are worse

Number 2 they can allow the said privateers a lower cost option to go race and be at the SAME level of competitiveness they were at on their relatively good mod 250f, but for way cheaper.

Part of the privateer struggle is you have to race to get experience to improve. To do this for 2-3 seasons is brutslly costly on a 4 stroke

The 250 allows the experience at a 1/3 the cost.

We helped a team for their outdoor national motors (who have been to des nations, won outdoors, and been podium contenders and moto winners this last season) and they have both options to choose. Money is not of major concern... and they choose the 4t. The 2t has its tracks where its on par... but in team owners words, its never better...

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5/27/2018 7:43 PM

I think the rule was put in place back when a 250 2 stroke WAS way more powerful than a 250 4 stroke. 4 strokes have come a long way. Some would argue a new 450 vs a kx or cr500. Theyre getting really close.

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5/27/2018 7:49 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

The “hot shoe 250” 2 stroke would be slower for the top guys. Avg power over the rpm width needed to ride is less on the 2 ...more

Im kind of on the fence in this whole argument. I have a YZ 250 2 stroke at the moment so im not the anti 2 stroke guy at all.

I think the premier riders in the world should be on bikes that are at the cutting edge of technology, by your own admission that's not 2 strokes. They are, at best, equal but never better. So the only reason to ride one is because they are cheaper and you are ok to give up a performance advantage to stay in the class with the hope you may get a shot at a "good" four stroke at some point in the future. Evidenced by the fact that the succesfull 2 stroke riders in OZ (Mastin, Makeham, Wills) and Canada (Benoit) all moved to 4 strokes as soon as a ride was available.

If budget is an issue then the 450 class is where those riders should be. In that class if you're good enough to be noticed then so is your bike.

On the amateur level, by all means, ride what you can afford, 2 stroke or 4 stroke, doesn't matter. At the pro level the bikes should be the best the manufacturers/aftermarket companies have to offer.

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5/27/2018 7:58 PM

haydos25 wrote:

Im kind of on the fence in this whole argument. I have a YZ 250 2 stroke at the moment so im not the anti 2 stroke guy at all. ...more

I've never really thought about that side of the argument, top riders riding the latest tech, that actually does make sense.
I have often thought about privateers running in the 450 class but how many times do you see a top 250 rider struggle in the 450 class. It may be bike or the depth of talent but it seems harder to make it in the 450 class, especially for a kid straight out of amateurs

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5/27/2018 8:12 PM

chump6784 wrote:

I've never really thought about that side of the argument, top riders riding the latest tech, that actually does make sense.
I ...more

Look at Aldredge, Masterpool, Merriam, Taft, Henry Miller. Where would those guys have placed in the 250 class? Would we still be talking about them? And how much money would they have had to spend on 250 bikes to achieve the same level of competitiveness?

If you're struggling for money the 450 class is the place to be this year, and pretty much every year in recent memory.

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5/27/2018 8:42 PM

haydos25 wrote:

Im kind of on the fence in this whole argument. I have a YZ 250 2 stroke at the moment so im not the anti 2 stroke guy at all. ...more

chump6784 wrote:

I've never really thought about that side of the argument, top riders riding the latest tech, that actually does make sense.
I ...more

haydos25 wrote:

Look at Aldredge, Masterpool, Merriam, Taft, Henry Miller. Where would those guys have placed in the 250 class? Would we still ...more

I totally agree its stupid to chase the 250 class if you arent on a team

However its a big conundrum. Privateers flat out do NOT get picked to drop back down by teams to go to 250s, I cant even think of an example - with filthy sorta kinda being an example but not really.

Also the 450 is a far different bike than 250f. Doing well on it will not mean you can do well on the 250. There are far more 250 rides available and you want to get a 250 ride when you are making your way into this sport...

If you can ride ANY 2 stroke at pace - you have an incredible skill set.

The us promotion of racing has ruined our sport at many levels and no correction has been done to improve. Mxgp has flaws... but emx 125 250f, and 300cc are brilliant

It blows my mind we no longer have a strong amatuer days events. We should have and east and west coast amatuer day series with a 125 schoolboy class, 250f schoolboy class, and 300cc and under youth pro class with 20+1 motos (along with all the normal classes) that gives these younger guys experience, exposure, and oppurtunity.

The tracks are already staffed....worked, and set up to support this.

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5/27/2018 8:54 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

I totally agree its stupid to chase the 250 class if you arent on a team

However its a big conundrum. Privateers flat out do ...more

But how many privateer 250 guys end up getting picked up by teams anyways? Not a great deal i would say, Alex Martin being the only one really that springs to mind right now, and even then he was on the eleven ten "team".

Most of the guys on the 250 teams these days picked up the support straight out of amateurs anyways. If you're privateering it at all the chances of you getting a ride on a team is immediately pretty slim straight out of the gate, and you're going to have to put in a few years of solid results before anybody looks at you, eg. Alex Ray, Weston Peick etc. May aswell do that in the 450 class where you can make a bit of money (in supercross anyways) and be relatively competitive on a mostly stock bike.

The 250 class is for rich kids and teams these days in my opinion. And the teams aren't going to do it on a 2 stroke because they're flat out not as good.

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5/27/2018 9:10 PM

haydos25 wrote:

Look at Aldredge, Masterpool, Merriam, Taft, Henry Miller. Where would those guys have placed in the 250 class? Would we still ...more

Derek Harris wrote:

I totally agree its stupid to chase the 250 class if you arent on a team

However its a big conundrum. Privateers flat out do ...more

haydos25 wrote:

But how many privateer 250 guys end up getting picked up by teams anyways? Not a great deal i would say, Alex Martin being the ...more

So we shouldnt open the rules up, allow more diversity... and story lines

Because its for rich kids now (true - but why??? 125 days wasnt this way)

Because our sport pays horribly (true - why?)

And because it wouldnt make a difference?

Last thought - statement - the us rules are structured to keep new manufacturers out. 400 models of one bike must be sold in the us to become homologated. This was done by the big oems to keep smaller ones out... under the guise of “no factory bikes”.

Factory bikes are just that - even if they look stock. Riddle me where factory honda saves 10-12 lbs from reeds privateer bike using same suspension?? Reeds had ti everything...there is a reason honda crushes and destroys their equipment at the end of the year...

So we should be making rules to BRING In new teams and manufacturers, not keep them out.we should allow frame constructers and casting companies and innovators to come in...

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5/27/2018 9:22 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

So we shouldnt open the rules up, allow more diversity... and story lines

Because its for rich kids now (true - but why??? ...more

Open it up by all means. But like you said originally, and has been proven here in Australia and Canada, the good guys wont ride them, the middle of the road guys might but that will only be in the hopes of keeping up long enough to get a factory 4 stroke. Then what will everyone talk about on here?

As for the pro purse payout and why the sport is financially out of reach of most people these days. I don't have the answer to that, there's probably 35 reasons that all contribute.

I cant argue with you about the factory teams, but it will always be an arms race in Motorsport. Who has the deepest pockets, who's willing to bend and stretch the rules the most will win. Motocross isn't any different. But im not against opening it up to some new companies and innovators to get involved. I'm just skeptical that they will see a enough return on investment to actually get involved and do it.

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5/27/2018 9:45 PM

I would make castings if allowed to market and sell - ive had some killer ideas that would be a great niche product - and it would SAVE money for teams. Look at jgrs 450 head - welded heavily and re fabricated to improve port(ill bet the 250 head is more extensive too)

Its a life dream of mine to make a bike...but the financials of it make no sense in the usa... i couldnt race the bikes anywhere (not even amatuers...) despite the fact selling 200-300 total bikes is more than enough to support a small venture

It would be cool to open the rules to allow someone to make their own chassis for any existing engine (or any engine for an existinng chassis) the rule can be very simple - it must be for sale and under x dollars to card carrying pro...unrestricted on private market

Im a tm dealer this year.. because they are about as close to what I find cool as exists... Id love to put a rider of mine on a 250 two stroke outdoors (in the 450 class) or a 250f..giving him a ride he doesnt currently have...and giving me a small marketting platform (probably a loss - lets be real). however i can not...and he purchased a ktm 250sx for that reason... So he can go race.

People like myself with far better means and brains would do cool things if allowed to...

A bbr built frame with a privately built engine using existing parts (aka tranny and clutch, crank rtc from existing bikes) and custom cases/head whatever would just be cool. Even if it was worse (hard to beat the big oems... they arent stupid)

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