250 two stroke vs 450 four stroke unfair? 300 2 stroke vs 450 four stroke fair?

Related:
Create New Tag

2/4/2014 7:02 PM

Hey fellas,

Im starting this post on who thinks the this is a fair deal? The 450's are a whole 200cc's more and so much technology is going into them. Its obvious that a 4 stroke will always have more bottom end and im not even surprised if the top is same or more. But wouldn't it be a more exciting event to see an SX 300 two stroke up against the 450s? now remember this still makes the 4 stroke 150cc's more so its not too much of a big deal.
I read a review online about a ktm 250sx turned into a ktm 300 sx here's the link:

http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/TWOSTROKE-TEST-WE-TURN-OUR-KTM-250SX-INTO-A-KTM-30-6884.aspx

You'll read that the 300 doesnt really have more top speed, but just gives it more strength where a 250 is lacking. I think that this would make for such exciting racing if this was to be done. I miss the days of 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. I watched 1 two stroke vs a whole class of four strokes and the statdium mx we have at my local and the whole crowd just couldn't help looking at the guy on the 2 stroke. He was just so much more exciting to watch, but what added to the whole thing was that it doesn't just become about rider vs rider but also 2t vs 4t again. Adding soo much more excitement to the race.

let me know what you all think anyway.

|

2/4/2014 7:04 PM

I love the idea....I think a 300cc 2 stroke is the best engine ever. But you've just opened up a huge can of worms on herew00t

|

2/4/2014 7:08 PM

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

|

2/4/2014 7:11 PM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

if not cc for cc then it should be relatively close to 350f v 250t and 250f vs 200t

then have a 125 class

|

2/4/2014 7:24 PM

Since the 250F's are as fast as the 450's now, they should just do a 2 stroke class and a 4 stroke class. Any CC in either. Let everyone decide which class they want to be in first then figure out which CC best fits their track and style.

Talk about added drama at each race! The factories would still be racing whatever they want to sell, so the 4 strokes would be presented as the "premier" class with the fastest riders and most money, but I am sure the big 3 4 5 whatever are scared what would happen to lap times in the "vintage" class so no way this is gonna be allowed to happen.

|

[i]There are two things I can’t stand in this world.
People who are intolerant of others because of their choice of motor type … and 4 strokes!


2/4/2014 7:26 PM

the biggest problem these days would be getting guys that know how to ride 2 strokes on them. few guys that are racing SX have spent any time on them racing at the highest level. Reed comes to mind.

with the lites times being as good, and in many cases, better than the SX class i don't really see where the 250 smokers are at "that much" of a disadvantage currently (in SX..... outdoors is a different story). as guyb pointed out.... the 450s already put out more power than they can really use (250 lap times are proof of this).

personally, i'd love to see a 300cc smoker allowed in the big bike class at the pro-level. the problem would be getting the most talented in the biz to ride them...... even more of a challenge..... getting the manufacturers to allow their best riders to ride them.

|

2/4/2014 7:30 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/4/2014 7:31 PM

also, the 350 was the bike that was supposed to physically feel like a 250f and have almost the power of a 450 (and for the most part it does, i own one)......... why not have a bike that feels (and is) LIGHTER than a 250f with the same power of a 450..... a 300 certainly is that (i own one).

|

2/4/2014 7:34 PM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

How about a restrictor plate of sorts. Limit the intake port diameter. Simple enough right?

|

2/4/2014 7:34 PM

Photo
|

2/4/2014 7:38 PM

I have a 2012 300xc and a 2013 450sx.. Both are similar in "speed" but no matter how you turn the peanut, one has an exhaust stroke and one doesn't. The exhaust stroke is an interruption in the pulse of power. This interruption gives the tire a moment to regain traction, but adversely tends to stand up the motorcycle in the turns..

Whatever.. At the end of the day, if I could only have one bike, it would be a 300xc.. Track/desert/mountains/etc.. It does it all... Well!!!

|

2/4/2014 7:43 PM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

twosmoke30 wrote:

if not cc for cc then it should be relatively close to 350f v 250t and 250f vs 200t

then have a 125 class

This,

The only post that makes sense, but will get ignored and everyone will talk about making a separate two stroke class, or 2 stroke only and 4 stroke only classes or racing 500cc 3 strokes.

But stuff the 125 class, it would be boring to watch. It would be like watching c graders race.

|

2/4/2014 7:44 PM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

keyboardjockey750 wrote:

How about a restrictor plate of sorts. Limit the intake port diameter. Simple enough right?

That sounds like a bandaid fix.

You know how popular restrictor plates are with the NASCAR drivers, right? smile

|

2/4/2014 7:47 PM

2T42 wrote:

Since the 250F's are as fast as the 450's now, they should just do a 2 stroke class and a 4 stroke class. Any CC in either. Let everyone decide which class they want to be in first then figure out which CC best fits their track and style.

Talk about added drama at each race! The factories would still be racing whatever they want to sell, so the 4 strokes would be presented as the "premier" class with the fastest riders and most money, but I am sure the big 3 4 5 whatever are scared what would happen to lap times in the "vintage" class so no way this is gonna be allowed to happen.

And this has what to do with the original topic?

|

2/4/2014 7:57 PM

This topic is like ground hog day

|

2/4/2014 8:11 PM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

keyboardjockey750 wrote:

How about a restrictor plate of sorts. Limit the intake port diameter. Simple enough right?

GuyB wrote:

That sounds like a bandaid fix.

You know how popular restrictor plates are with the NASCAR drivers, right? smile

It may be a bandaid fix or it could be permanent fix. Limit carb/throttle body diameter.

I mean another option is to limit cc's. But pulling back cc's in the 250 class will only drive cost up even more I would think and further separate the haves from the have nots.

A restrictor plate is about the quickest, simplest, and cheapest way to pull back the power.

These guys need to slow down just a tad for safety. Also it would make it a lot cheaper for the privateers to compete if they could get out there on a smoker and somewhat compete.

|

2/4/2014 8:18 PM

Outsider wrote:

This topic is like ground hog day

Yeah. The "gift" that keeps on giving.

|

2/4/2014 8:24 PM

Photo
|

Never try to argue with idiots; they will only bring you down to their level.....and being more experienced, they will beat you at their own game!

2020.5 KTM 450 SXF FE
2006 KX250

2/4/2014 8:38 PM

No limits cc wise is the way to go. Who's gonna ride a 750? No one. What about a 100? No one. So, let the rider decide what they would like to ride. Just a premier class and a support class. Support class gets 1/10 the media exposure and money, incentive to join the money, premier class. Why would you want to 'make' Peick and Alessi ride the same size bike? They are clearly favored for different bikes.

|

2/4/2014 8:50 PM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

Good luck with that. Look at the arguments that used to go on in World Superbike when they allowed twins to have higher displacement than the fours.

GT car racing has a parity formula but it's complicated and takes a hell of a lot of testing.

I think people should just accept that there is no reasonable way to ensure parity on such different engine configurations.

|

2/4/2014 9:20 PM

I think 450s especially in supercross should be removed, the best riders in the world are limited the bikes are too big heavy and too powerful, it's not good to see the amateur guys turning quicker laps with more flair on their style because their bike is smaller.

|

2/4/2014 10:35 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/5/2014 1:30 AM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

Change the current 250f's to 200f's and the current 450f's to 350f's. I know it will probably never happen, but I think that would work better for SX and still be acceptable or MX

|

2/4/2014 11:12 PM

My 450 was a fun bike, but dammit I love my 300. It really is the perfect engine

|

2/4/2014 11:24 PM

2 stokessmile

|

2/5/2014 6:46 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/5/2014 6:59 AM

2T42 wrote:

Since the 250F's are as fast as the 450's now, they should just do a 2 stroke class and a 4 stroke class. Any CC in either. Let everyone decide which class they want to be in first then figure out which CC best fits their track and style.

Talk about added drama at each race! The factories would still be racing whatever they want to sell, so the 4 strokes would be presented as the "premier" class with the fastest riders and most money, but I am sure the big 3 4 5 whatever are scared what would happen to lap times in the "vintage" class so no way this is gonna be allowed to happen.

GuyB wrote:

And this has what to do with the original topic?

Sorry. Let me get back on topic since this thread is going to have an immediate impact on Professional racing...


Photo



This post may or may not be Jarid approved herein referred to as "bear' or "Jarid". Views or photo(s) presented and expressed herein are not necessarily the opinions or expressions of Jarid and or its associates thus hereby are those of the author(s) however narrow minded and opinionated he may be and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or bear of any agency of the jarid or association of bears and or bear. Examples of analysis performed within this article are only examples and forthwith wherein arst though not to be taken seriously hereforwarduntoeth. They should not be utilized in real-world analytic solutions to the major overweight overpriced dirt sickle situation as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information based primarily on BEAR photo(s). Assumptions made within the analysis are not reflective of the position of the original poster or Jarid or related bear entity.

grin

|

[i]There are two things I can’t stand in this world.
People who are intolerant of others because of their choice of motor type … and 4 strokes!


2/5/2014 6:59 AM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

shredder22 wrote:

Change the current 250f's to 200f's and the current 450f's to 350f's. I know it will probably never happen, but I think that would work better for SX and still be acceptable or MX

totally agree with the 200,350 cc 4 strokes. Will make the racing a bit safer. Just got to get those riders to wear shoulder pads.
Also bring back a box stock 125 2 stroke class with a 15K$ claiming rule to keep the costs down.

|

2/5/2014 9:26 AM

GuyB wrote:

My .02? Rather than figuring out how to make two-strokes faster to keep up with the 450s, we should be figuring out how to safely scale back the power on the big-bores. They already have more power than they can use.

I do think that they should be able to come up with a formula that allows dissimilar engine types to race together.

ding diiiiiiing!!

dial the shit back....We don't need 60hp to have fun on mx tracks.

|

2/5/2014 11:16 AM

loftyair wrote:

No limits cc wise is the way to go. Who's gonna ride a 750? No one. What about a 100? No one. So, let the rider decide what they would like to ride. Just a premier class and a support class. Support class gets 1/10 the media exposure and money, incentive to join the money, premier class. Why would you want to 'make' Peick and Alessi ride the same size bike? They are clearly favored for different bikes.

I disagree that riders wouldn't use large displacement motors if they could.

A single cylinder 750 could produce 60hp (seems to have been the upper limit for traction/rideability for 20+ years), but do so at a much lower rpm and produce more torque with a broader torque curve than a 450. Easier to ride, more traction due to the lower rpm's, and as a bonus less parts breakage due to under stressed components and the lower rpm's.

No replacement for displacement. That's the thumper's biggest advantage today anyway.



As mentioned, there is no easy solution for how to limit the power. Making the displacement smaller hurts riders like Peick, while restrictors hurt OEM development and encourage big $ to be spent on making power with less air.

The CC for CC thing is a no-brainer though. Anything less than equal sizes is stupid.

|

2/5/2014 12:08 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/5/2014 12:08 PM

Diesels, everyone should run diesels!! Now we have to decide on 2 stroke or 4 stroke diesels.......oh shit!.......................Rotary, everyone should run rotarys......

|

[LINK TO IMAGE]

Chuck Norris is 1/8th Scottish. This has nothing to do with ancestry, the man ate a fucking Scotsman!

2/5/2014 12:13 PM

2T42 wrote:

Sorry. Let me get back on topic since this thread is going to have an immediate impact on Professional racing...


Photo



This post may or may not be Jarid approved herein referred to as "bear' or "Jarid". Views or photo(s) presented and expressed herein are not necessarily the opinions or expressions of Jarid and or its associates thus hereby are those of the author(s) however narrow minded and opinionated he may be and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or bear of any agency of the jarid or association of bears and or bear. Examples of analysis performed within this article are only examples and forthwith wherein arst though not to be taken seriously hereforwarduntoeth. They should not be utilized in real-world analytic solutions to the major overweight overpriced dirt sickle situation as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information based primarily on BEAR photo(s). Assumptions made within the analysis are not reflective of the position of the original poster or Jarid or related bear entity.

grin

laughing that was good!
|

Make Hillclimb Great Again

Ratbeach Racing

Instagram / YouTube: @485Josh

3dpmoto.com