Posts
6438
Joined
10/16/2014
Location
Buda, TX
US
Edited Date/Time
6/29/2019 10:40am
In parts of the World where the rules are more open, or in other types of rule structures in the U.S. or Off Road, what are the real results? I have a few to get this thread started.
GNCC 4t in 1st (KTM), 2t in 2nd (Beta) http://www.racer-results.net/results/gncc/2019/seriespoints.asp?s=5&c=2…
EnduroGP 2t in 1st (Beta), 4t in 2nd (Honda) http://www.endurogp.org/en/result-pilotes-standing/10/2019
West Hare Scrambles 2t in 1st (Beta) 4t in 2nd (Yamaha)https://www.moto-tally.com/whs/results.aspx
Is anyone in Canada competitive on a 2t in the MX Nationals? Australia?
GNCC 4t in 1st (KTM), 2t in 2nd (Beta) http://www.racer-results.net/results/gncc/2019/seriespoints.asp?s=5&c=2…
EnduroGP 2t in 1st (Beta), 4t in 2nd (Honda) http://www.endurogp.org/en/result-pilotes-standing/10/2019
West Hare Scrambles 2t in 1st (Beta) 4t in 2nd (Yamaha)https://www.moto-tally.com/whs/results.aspx
Is anyone in Canada competitive on a 2t in the MX Nationals? Australia?
Here's a good video on Freeman. He started and finished this weekend with a BADLY broken collar bone and somehow retained his points lead, now allowing time for surgery during the summer break.
The Champion Steve Holcombe has been fighting a virus, likely Epstein Barr from over training and has struggled this year but is still in contention.
https://enduro21.com/index.php/endurogp/4246-what-s-is-brad-freeman-mad…
In Australia it's relatively even on track now but riders are only allowed minor modifications to the 2T's so the 2T numbers have dropped off a bit. There's a few strong 2 stroke riders but most of the top guys are on 4 strokes, I think the rules are working well.
In the mx2 class the holeshot and win came from a 250f. The fastest riders are on the factory teams and they run 4 strokes.
If you discard the factory teams there were a few 2 strokes that did fairly well. What i noticed most was coming onto the front straight, if the rider on the 2 stroke didn't get quite as good a run he had enough power that the rider on the 4 stroke couldn't get around him. If the rider on the 2 stroke did get a good run he might pull a couple of bike lengths on the 4 stroke. It wasn't night and day difference but beyond the factory 4 strokes the 250 2 stroke has a small advantage in a straight line. The rest of the track they were pretty much equal
Just as you mentioned, limiting modifications on one but not the other sounds like we still don't have parity, hence the smaller numbers.
The series I have shown demonstrate that 2t's are still in the game, in spite of decades of meddling to keep them down. It's a bit surprising that it's Beta leading the way rather than KTM on 2t's though.
The Shop
125's v. 250F's isn't even close (which is how it's currently setup) nor is 250 2st v. 450F's.
Let 250's all race together and bring some fucking excitement, intrigue, crazy upsets, and storylines to the board. What is there a worry that Factory TLD/KTM is going to roll up on 250SX's and smoke the field? Really? Professional racing has dealt with 'different engine types' at the very highest levels of motorsport and they've all figured it out. You mean to tell me Davey can't get a couple recently retired pro riders together to do a week of test n' tuning to figure out a proper engine rules package that keeps it all level? A non-partisan (ie: non-OEM) influenced racer/tuner group using LitPro and all the other engine electronics we have now to put a fair rules package together?
Factory teams can keep running $$$$$ 250F grenades all they want and lower money teams (not to mention broke ass privateers) can run 250 2stokes.
FIGURE IT OUT.
In 2014 he rode both the 2 stroke and the 4 stroke depending on the track. In 2014 the 2 strokes were allowed modifications. For 2015 they changed the rules where you had to select 1 bike and whichever one you started the series on, that's the one you had to race for the entire year. And for 2015 the only modifications you could do to the 2 strokes were a pipe and silencer.
You can watch the 2014 series HERE.
You can watch the 2015 series HERE.
2014
2015
None, whatsoever.
Well, other than keeping 'natural' aspiration.
Modern 4ts are so far removed from XR,TT,DR level tech. They can rev to the moon, and well past it, whereas a 2t of the same capacity won't. Revs, on a 4t, (well, everything, but very much the 4t solution for ever more power) means more power.
Besides the engine dynamics of in barrel ports, and crank case transfer, you've got the very basic difference of stroke and therefore piston speed. Most 250 4ts are in the range of 52 / 54mm stroke now, whereas, 72mm stroke is pretty much the standard on a 250 2t. Hell, it's a far longer a stroke than 450 4ts, and only a couple of mms less than 500s. Short strokes, of the type 4ts can use, really don't work for a 2t.
We've got to rid ourselves / rule makers, completely of any tuning rule restrictions on 2ts, over 4ts.
In case you're not keeping up, I recently posted on the newest Sherco's and TM's also. Boutique Bike Guy for sure.
I mean who who ever raced Montesa's?
KTM are leading the way everywhere else on two strokes, they support an entire series that is lead by 2 strokes (WESS), here (and from what I can tell in the Canadian series) they directly support 2 stroke riders in MX, they have more 2 stroke riders in the EMX series than any other manufacturer and previously had 2 strokes racing E3 class in the enduro GP's before Beta was even manufacturing Enduro bikes, you could consider that KTM, TM and Gas Gas paved the way for Beta and Sherco.
The series you have shown has degraded from a premier series, with the worlds best riders to a series that is primarily supported at the factory level by boutique brands and a lot of the talent has either gone elsewhere or moved into smaller distributor based teams. From a factory perspective only Beta, Sherco and TM are really putting effort into the EnduroGP's, even Gas Gas hasn't made all of the rounds this year.
Two strokes are great bikes, it's not surprising to see Brad Freeman winning the E1 class on one.
Kudos to KTM for doing WESS. It's a shame they quit on their roots that made them the company they are today. I find it odd that a company that races in virtually every dirt competition in the world has abandoned the thing that built the empire. They did get their ass kicked for a few years before leaving, so quitting might have been a prudent choice?
The EnduroGP series is open to anyone, and is the only FIM Championship. Salvini is no slouch and would have likely won last year if not for 3 DNF's on the Husqvarna 4t in E2. That's why they call it Enduro.
The point of the thread is that head to head, against any size bike 2t or 4t, the 2t is consistently winning, particularly in Enduro GP, but also in West Hare Scrambles and contending in GNCC against like sized 4t's. It can obviously compete in MX if not restricted to a back marker position, and most likely SX as well given the chance. 18 years after the release of the the YZ 250F, and continual development and expense of 4t's, the powers that be STILL have their finger on the scales to assist 4t's for whatever reason the Manufacturing Complex deems a priority.
Yamaha ktm and tm would love and pay enough to have it going after the first 6mo I bet
Pit Row
I'm not much into WESS and really I think it was piss poor that KTM pulled out of the EnduroGP's but really that series is the biggest international basket case of them all, from 2 min test times and the ridiculous amount of class and structure changes. Matty Phillips who was world champ walked away because the series had degraded so much. It might an FIM championship and the riders are world class but it's not the series it was 10 years ago. I also still think Garcia would be handing Freeman his arse if KTM were competing, Enduro GP's are much more about the rider than the bike.
For sure the 250 2T has an advantage over the 4T in MX and SX though, I don't see US MX or the MXGP's introducing parity rules.
Enduro GP at least made changes to reflect current times rather than being stuck in the 90's. Enduro was always at a disadvantage with courses where the competition occurs miles away from spectators and press. Such is Enduro. As far as more about the rider than bike, who ever heard of Freeman or Holcombe or Cavallo? 2018 E1 Champ, E3 and GP Champ and Junior Champ all on Beta's in 2018 says it may be more about the bike than rider. Domination.
Thanks for your feedback and opinions, it's all been good and intelligent. I'd love to see the 2t vs. 4t thing contested on the track in more series rather than the Board Room, Rule Books and Heavy handed politics. Let the chips fall where they may.
Didnt really matter though as the only guys I can remember off the top of my head running up front regularly (Riverglade) on a smoker were Maff/Kaven in 14 and Kaven in 15.
*EDIT*: Also funny to notice how in the pic from 14, most guys are on a 2t, then the 15 theres still a few but not as many, and if my memory serves right, the amount of 2 strokes that showed up at the glade last year was less than 10. Gotta love JAP OEMS!
I'm not exactly sure what the rules are but I do know that anyone can ride one. As for what mods you can do to them I would have to look things up.
Either way, Kaven showed that even a relatively stock (pipe & silencer) bike was more than capable to compete with the highly modified 250 4 strokes.
I'm all for 250 2t vs. 250 4t. I would like to see it adopted in the US.
With very minimal time on a 250 2t, Dungey looked like this.
https://youtu.be/0B2s6VfH7W8
It's really that simple. Well, I'm glad we finally cleared this all up.
I own both and can ride both. Can You???????????????????????
The manufacturer's influence picking the winners and losers for us in MX. That didn't work out so well for Harley in Flat Track and the Japanese in general helped kill American Road Racing. Will they do the same to MX/SX? When it comes down to it, 250 anything, 350's and 450's all run about the same lap times. Of course we've seen history made on 125's against big bikes too.
In off road it's wide open and it goes either way, 2t and 4t both winning some and nobody makes a big fuss.
13) 250cc Two-Stroke Eligibility
250 Pro class - Intermediate and Pro riders are eligible to race 250cc Two Strokes, with the exception of past
250/450 Champions, and/or a Top 5 450 Series finisher from the past 5 years.
450 Pro class - All Pro riders are eligible to race 250cc Two strokes
So there's still some restriction but a lot less.
I didn't see anything in regards to modifications. I'm hoping to see more guys riding them on the East coast. That said I don't think any of the top 250 guys will be running them anytime soon. Most guys lining up nowadays went from an 85 to a 250 4t so that's just what they're used to and comfortable riding.
Bike Brand Fanboi'ism, run amok.
Hell, I like Betas, Shercos, and TMs, and would sooner buy those brands than a KTM, as I like 'difference' and, the prices are right for all of them, here in OZ. But, it's the Rider that counts. You really do barrack for Betas, JD. To the point of weirdness.
Freeman and Holcombe have been around for a fair few years, despite their ages. They are a part of the Brit (and I'm no Anglophile, nor Anglophobe) Enduro juggernaut. Together with the McCanny brothers and Watson. Plus others.
The Junior Champ? Well, many people are often not too familiar with them, as, due to their age, they, at first, tend to be 'new' to the fans of the International racing scene.
Post a reply to: 250 4t vs. 250 2t 18 years later. Is it a fair fight?